The Stig
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,844
|
Post by The Stig on Dec 2, 2008 16:23:21 GMT -5
Baseball, field hockey, volleyball, etc. aren't really embarrassments because they're not very public sports. They're also Big East sports, so they add to our participation in the conference. They're also far less expensive than football.
I don't see football as taking funding from basketball. I know our basketball program is run on a shoestring compared to other top-notch programs, but we make it work. The extra funds needed for basketball are capital expenditures (like a practice facility), not recurring expenses (which is what football eats up).
Instead, I think football eats up funds that could be better used for other Big East sports like soccer and womens' basketball. Those sports have been performing better lately on the field and in recruiting, and a bit of extra money might be able to make them competitive for Big East titles and more.
I think the current state of the MSF is an unfortunately accurate metaphor for the state of the football program. If it were fully funded and completed as originally planned, it would be a great addition to the campus and the university as a whole. Unfortunately, that looks like it'll never happen. Instead we're left with a half-finished field that sits on a piece of land that would probably be better used for other projects.
|
|
tal1286
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Non-national Restaurant Chains!
Posts: 307
|
Post by tal1286 on Dec 2, 2008 19:13:24 GMT -5
I'm telling you guys... build a brand new, state of the art student fitness center (+ a garden/some green space) on what's currently the football field, and then build a new basketball arena/practice facility where Yates currently is. 100% chance that using the land that way adds more to the university than even a top-notch FCS team playing in the middle of campus ever could. And, in the process, screw over every outdoor IM and club sport? Doing that would leave us with exactly zero space. Club sports have to battle with pickup soccer players who don't even attend the university for space on Kehoe as it is. If you don't care about that, where would the lax teams play? I think you have a good idea, but I have a different perspective, I guess.
|
|
kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Enter your message here...
Posts: 9,934
|
Post by kchoya on Dec 2, 2008 19:50:27 GMT -5
Get this...there's ANOTHER re-design for the MSF on the website today. It's a totally different look, but I ran into Mr. Muir today and asked him about it. He said that today's updated design is within our current budget, can be constructed by next season, and will "bring everyone back to the days when Georgetown was a football power." Here's a link to a photo of how it will look: www.library.georgetown.edu/dept/speccoll/i/page/fbandh~1.jpgIn related news, the University released a rendition of the proposed basketball practice facility: www.library.georgetown.edu/dept/speccoll/i/page/ryangym.jpg
|
|
CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,598
|
Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 2, 2008 19:52:29 GMT -5
Baseball, field hockey, volleyball, etc. aren't really embarrassments because they're not very public sports. Although miserable in the past, volleyball actually had a decent season this past fall, finishing with a winning overall record, 14-13, and going an even 7-7 in the Big East. However, I think field hockey, despite lack of public visibility, is still a huge, huge embarrassment. Going 0-17, losing a game 16-0, and playing your "home" games at an opponent's campus 12 miles away - something has to be done with that program. Finally, I think that replacing the turf on Kehoe Field on top of Yates has to be as big of a priority as completing MSF, if not a bigger one. I've said it before, but that field isn't even suitable for intramurals. It's pathetic.
|
|
PhillyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,016
|
Post by PhillyHoya on Dec 2, 2008 21:23:47 GMT -5
I'm telling you guys... build a brand new, state of the art student fitness center (+ a garden/some green space) on what's currently the football field, and then build a new basketball arena/practice facility where Yates currently is. 100% chance that using the land that way adds more to the university than even a top-notch FCS team playing in the middle of campus ever could. And, in the process, screw over every outdoor IM and club sport? Doing that would leave us with exactly zero space. Club sports have to battle with pickup soccer players who don't even attend the university for space on Kehoe as it is. If you don't care about that, where would the lax teams play? I think you have a good idea, but I have a different perspective, I guess. I'd assume his plan would call for refurbishing the turf on Kehoe as a home for the lax team and allowing access to clubs/IM to both Kehoe and N. Kehoe.
|
|
tal1286
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Non-national Restaurant Chains!
Posts: 307
|
Post by tal1286 on Dec 2, 2008 21:48:56 GMT -5
And, in the process, screw over every outdoor IM and club sport? Doing that would leave us with exactly zero space. Club sports have to battle with pickup soccer players who don't even attend the university for space on Kehoe as it is. If you don't care about that, where would the lax teams play? I think you have a good idea, but I have a different perspective, I guess. I'd assume his plan would call for refurbishing the turf on Kehoe as a home for the lax team and allowing access to clubs/IM to both Kehoe and N. Kehoe. yeah, maybe. I don't know of many basketball arenas with turf fields on top of them, though. But, I suppose there are a few ways it could work. In any case, I guess it's not really worth getting too worked up over. We'd have to cancel the football program before this could even begin to become a reality.
|
|
|
Post by jerseyhoya34 on Dec 2, 2008 21:56:49 GMT -5
I guess the question I have is whether people are allowed to donate to the MSF at this time. People may remember last year when there were designs for a renovated McDonough. The problem was that it would have taken nothing short of a FOIA request to have been given some modicum of transparency and, even then, likely not much at all.
With the MSF, you now have to find the fundraising page buried deep on GUHoyas and, when you happen upon it, you have the opportunity to call what is ostensibly a generic phone number and don't have so much as a name to ask for. What awaits an unwitting caller is anyone's guess. There's no sense that this project is a priority (and is conveniently listed below the Boathouse on GUHoyas' Facilities page.)* It has been well-chronicled on this board that we left our Athletics Development shop virtually empty for quarters, if not years, at a time. Now, we appear to have full time staff in positions, and, as this page attests, their names are not put out there in a meaningful way designed to inspire action/donations.
That being said, the MSF/football effort was given an opportunity to throw money at the original design, albeit likely no more organized than this new incarnation. The redesign is a byproduct of their not having the money to complete the original design. With basketball, we do not have any idea because we no longer have a design and, in any event, have not had a sustained opportunity in several years to donate to renovate McDonough in a meaningful way.**
I have said this for years now, but virtually everyone supports updating our facilities. The problem is that many save their support for banquets and have not followed up afterwards. Still others support renovations generally but are unwilling to go to bat to the point of creating a controversy with supporters of other projects, be it MSF, Science, MSB, SWQ, etc.
I would argue that football has hindered basketball to the extent that we were once told (wrongly) that we could not design a new basketball facility or raise money for such a facility until we took care of football with locker room, offices, etc. so we could move McDonough offices over before completing necessary renovations. We now know that this so-called vision was in error as we prepare just to make finishing touches on the MSF with nary a water fountain much less offices, training rooms, locker rooms, and the like. Where this leaves basketball is anyone's guess without insight into administrative deliberations. To the extent such politicking remains acceptable, we will not see the meaningful renovations and construction that we need on the athletics side of the house. The MSF re-re-design is now marked as Exhibit A.
*If someone has an update on the Boathouse, that would likely be of interest to the board.
**People may remember an effort awhile ago, which resulted in donations of at least $1M. My understanding is that these funds were "reassigned."
|
|
FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
Posts: 4,544
|
Post by FLHoya on Dec 2, 2008 22:59:04 GMT -5
To be honest, I see almost no benefit of even having a football program anymore, and I don't mean to offend any current players or parents. I wish I could see something positive, but its just an embarrassment to the university these days. I went to every single home game while I was in college and really tried to be a fan of the program, but its just too much of a joke to follow anymore. I can handle losing, that's not my problem with the football program. The problem is that there seems to be no improvement of any kind from year to year, no real commitment from the university, or any desire to do anything that would make Georgetown football enjoyable and attractive to the Georgetown community and alumni. We can't continue to wallow in this state of disrepair forever. Overall I agree with 007 to the fullest. I supported the team for my 4 years as an undergrad, but now as an alumnus who is not near campus, the program is a complete afterthought. I'm fairly confident that it's an afterthought for almost all alumni, whether they live near DC or not. And, it's an afterthought to most students as well. Nobody I knew at Georgetown really cared about the team except for a few of my fellow Hoya Blue members, and even they mostly went to the games out of a sense that it was "the right thing to do", not because they wanted to be there. (The exceptions to this are of course the players and alumni and their close friends and family.) I am fairly convinced that this is not JUST because the team was always losing, but also because people at Georgetown just aren't that excited about an FCS football team, win or lose. Unless you're a big football fan or somebody who is overflowing with school spirit, there are probably more fun ways to spend a nice saturday afternoon in Washington DC. Honestly, I'm just not sure what we're trying to accomplish with this football experiment. It isn't enhancing the lives of the vast majority of students or alumni. It's not bringing any prestige or pride or unity to the school. Matter of fact it's an embarrassment in most situations, if you have friends from Yale or Penn or any of the other schools that routinely kicks our asses. I highlight these two selections to point out a rather significant point: You realize the authors are the two most recent former Presidents of Hoya Blue, right? It should tell all you need to know. It's one thing that for 98% of campus GU football isn't even on the radar...but that's a reality as well. The more disturbing fact is that even for the most die-hard athletics fans on campus, going to GU football games is little more than an obligation. They do it out of a sense of duty to the club, to the school, to the idea that they'll probably be in better standing for staff passes during basketball season. And I'll let out the not-so-hidden secret--most of the Hoya Blue people at football games don't like being there either. You know what? I don't like being there any more either...especially now that I quit sneaking in with an expired student ID. We've gone trough about four years or so since the re-organization of Hoya Blue...quite a few alums from those years still live in the DC area. Know how many come to football games? Not many, if any. What 007 says about the program as an afterthought for young alums is the truth. We can talk about facilities and renovations and such...but I've said this before, even this is too "advanced" for getting at what ails GU football. I mean, scary as it is, the current version of the MSF is better than what was on that plot of land 4-5 years ago...and there hasn't been any change of note since those days, aside from my rump sitting on a synthetic plastic instead of wood. When the previous two Presidents of Hoya Blue give up caring about football without a thought the moment the final whistle blows on their senior season, that's bad. When I get word from a Hoya Blue board member during a sparsely attended pre-game event (think under ten people) before the first game of the season that they've already "lost" the freshman class, that's worse. These things happen not just because the team is bad. They happen because the Athletic Department does absolutely nothing to demonstrate that they care about promoting the football team...from advertising to events to in-game atmosphere to pre-game atmosphere to the stadium itself. Very simply: football isn't going to be saved--or worth saving--without a major commitment from the Athletic Department that goes beyond funding whatever the heck will happen to the MSF 2.0. I don't see it happening...so I don't see anybody on campus caring...and so I don't see why it's worth continuing.
|
|
JimmyHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Hoya fan, est. 1986
Posts: 1,867
|
Post by JimmyHoya on Dec 2, 2008 23:03:33 GMT -5
F'ing pathetic.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,856
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 3, 2008 7:34:43 GMT -5
Winning cures a lot of ills. Basketball knows that quite well. (And to the poster that claims men's basketball is on a shoestring budget, that's simply not true. Based on 2007 EADA reports and a web site tracking such things, Georgetown's men's basketball spending is now among the highest anywhere in the nation. Let's put that claim to rest.)
The fact is no one under 30 knows what it's like to be at a Georgetown football game when they were winning 49-6 or 54-7, much less road games when it stuffed Cornell by three touchdowns. Or the 1998 Homecoming game where an athletic official walked by and told me he was worried that students might try to rush for the Kehoe goalposts...which were actually bolted into the concrete, which would have been something to see. Georgetown wasn't accepted into the PL because it was a nice name and a bad field, it did because it was winning and winning big. If that was a 2-9 team in 1999 instead of 9-2, this is a different conversation.
But this MSF inertia is not just a football issue but a University one--it seems no one wants to publicly commit to anything, because when you do, someone is then held accountable for it. Name your project: the science center, library expansion, fixing the turf at Kehoe Field, the MSF, the unfunded Thompson practice facility, the renovation of Darnall Cafeteria, the New South "student center", et al.: without a committed date, you're never exactly behind schedule.
|
|
|
Post by 98hoya on Dec 3, 2008 10:11:17 GMT -5
The fact is no one under 30 knows what it's like to be at a Georgetown football game when they were winning 49-6 or 54-7, much less road games when it stuffed Cornell by three touchdowns. Or the 1998 Homecoming game where an athletic official walked by and told me he was worried that students might try to rush for the Kehoe goalposts...which were actually bolted into the concrete, which would have been something to see. Georgetown wasn't accepted into the PL because it was a nice name and a bad field, it did because it was winning and winning big. If that was a 2-9 team in 1999 instead of 9-2, this is a different conversation. DFW, Respectfully, I think you're overstating the level of enthusiasm for Georgetown football during the "good times." I have been to at least one Georgetown football game every year since the early 1990s. Winning 56-7 in front of 1,000 people at Kehoe Field was a disaster then, just as losing 56-7 in front of 1,000 people at MSF is now. There has always been ZERO campus excitement around football, except for among the 100 guys on the team, the assorted hangers-on/roommates, and a few girls who dated and/or wanted to date players. I do agree, however, that there's been some excitement at some of the road games. I can remember the drubbing we handed Holy Cross in 1999 or 2000 in Worcester. That was cool. The reason some of the away games are good is, I believe, because other schools make an effort to have a cool game day atmosphere that promotes student participation. Look, no one is watching 1-AA games for the quality of play. If that's what folks are after, they'll sit at home and watch SEC games. What fans want is FUN. Winning is one way to encourage fun, but a better way is to make going to the games an enjoyable experience. We're terrible at doing that. Our games are about as fun as those college basketball games when there's a meningitis outbreak on campus and the teams play in a closed gym.
|
|
|
Post by 98hoya on Dec 3, 2008 11:09:44 GMT -5
Here's a humble proposal for the MSF: why not build a BBQ area behind one of the endzones (but still inside the perimeter of the stadium) and ENCOURAGE students to come, cookout, and have fun? That seems cheap, easy and cost effective. They could have a BYOB rule and make people wear wristbands to drink.
I think simple steps like that are the ones most likely to make people interested in G'town football.
|
|
HoyaNyr320
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,233
|
Post by HoyaNyr320 on Dec 3, 2008 11:22:14 GMT -5
Here's a humble proposal for the MSF: why not build a BBQ area behind one of the endzones (but still inside the perimeter of the stadium) and ENCOURAGE students to come, cookout, and have fun? That seems cheap, easy and cost effective. They could have a BYOB rule and make people wear wristbands to drink. I think simple steps like that are the ones most likely to make people interested in G'town football. Ah yes... back to days when Lot T was used for tailgating and people watched the games by sitting on top of their cars with Keystone Lights. Homecoming used to involve something along the lines of what you are talking about- bracelets, BYOB, BBQ. It was a recipe for disaster- people got ridiculously drunk and didn't give a crap about the football game (similar to current homecoming, but picture people getting more drunk). I remember as a freshman waking up the next morning and seeing a commercial plow being used to scrape up the beer cans from Lot T - you can't make this stuff up.
|
|
|
Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Dec 3, 2008 11:30:07 GMT -5
If this facility is going to be used by men's and women's soccer, I have no problem with that. Otherwise, football needs new leadership, a new committment to building a fan base, as well as facilities. It's interesting that football is pretty much the anti-basketball - it's becoming a school embarasment and the solution that is being proposed is new facilities and not getting a coach who can be successful with what we have.
Btw, ask yourself this - if you were an assistant coach in the PL why would you take the Georgetown job?
|
|
|
Post by 98hoya on Dec 3, 2008 11:52:08 GMT -5
Here's a humble proposal for the MSF: why not build a BBQ area behind one of the endzones (but still inside the perimeter of the stadium) and ENCOURAGE students to come, cookout, and have fun? That seems cheap, easy and cost effective. They could have a BYOB rule and make people wear wristbands to drink. I think simple steps like that are the ones most likely to make people interested in G'town football. Ah yes... back to days when Lot T was used for tailgating and people watched the games by sitting on top of their cars with Keystone Lights. Homecoming used to involve something along the lines of what you are talking about- bracelets, BYOB, BBQ. It was a recipe for disaster- people got ridiculously drunk and didn't give a crap about the football game (similar to current homecoming, but picture people getting more drunk). I remember as a freshman waking up the next morning and seeing a commercial plow being used to scrape up the beer cans from Lot T - you can't make this stuff up. If you consider people "giving a crap about the football game" an important goal, then I think you're always going to be disappointed. Unless you are a player, parent, football alum, player's girlfriend or roommate or a general-weirdo, you're not going to care about the game itself. To put that in context, I was at Harvard-Yale this year - the 125th installment of a game between 2 good teams that decided the Ivy title - and I don't think a single person under the age of 60 actually cared about the game itself. The goal in my view should be to use football to create fun, positive, spirited, experiences for the student body. If people care about the game, that's great, but that's not the only (or easiest) way to achieve the goal.
|
|
GUHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,083
|
Post by GUHoya07 on Dec 3, 2008 12:39:44 GMT -5
I agree with 98 here. While I get annoyed by people who go to sporting events and don't give a damn about the game, its really unlikely we're going to get a ton of people going to Georgetown games and following every single play and cheering loudly the whole time.
If we have any hope of turning things around at all in terms of student and alumni support we have to create an environment in which its simply fun to attend games and hang out with your friends, if people end up getting into the game thats great, but this isn't Big East basketball or major D-1 football so we can't have unreasonable expectations.
One of the biggest problems now besides the fact that we are a horrible football team is the fact that there is no reason to go to the game other than to watch it. We have not created any kind of pre, in game or postgame attractions that would make it fun for people to come out and just relax on a Saturday afternoon regardless of whether they are big football fans or not.
Maybe what went on in Lot T before wasn't so great, but not because there were college students drinking and acting ridiculous, thats part of what college students associate with going to sporting events and if they can do it they're probably just gonna go drink somewhere else.
If we created even a small tailgate type area like 98 suggests I think it would be a great idea and help create some sort of atmosphere and excitement surrounding Saturday afternoons, and if people started to associate that with going to football games then great.
This probably will never happen though because the administration is too worried about associating themselves with alcohol related activities and possible consequences. I don't see any negative consequences as long as things are run properly but everyone feels the need to cover themselves these days.
If we are relying solely on the on the field product to attract lots of students and alumni I dont ever see Georgetown football being a major attraction, even if the team is undefeated every year from now on. That only happens at the highest levels of sport and even then you need more attractions.
|
|
CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,598
|
Post by CAHoya07 on Dec 3, 2008 14:39:38 GMT -5
I concur with 007 and 98. Take the Homecoming game as an example. Sure, the tailgate is packed and most of the attendees don't even make it to the football game. However, those that do end up making the Homecoming game crowd the most well attended football game of the season. We want them to go to the game, but at the very least why don't we start by creating a fun football-centric atmosphere?
Obviously, we can't have a Homecoming Tailgate before every football game, but if we can have something on a smaller scale before each and every home game, we could be on to something. All it requires is an investment by the University, something we have yet to see.
|
|
|
Post by williambraskyiii on Dec 3, 2008 15:14:04 GMT -5
Hoyanyr sounds like he was a bundle of fun in college...wish i could have a beer with you...epic FAIL
|
|
ichirohoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 535
|
Post by ichirohoya on Dec 3, 2008 15:27:13 GMT -5
Some wisdom from Bill Veeck, a man who knew a thing or two about running horrible teams:
"After a month or so in St. Louis, we were looking around desperately for a way to draw a few people into the ball park, it being perfectly clear by that time that the ball club wasn't going to do it unaided."
"It isn't the high price of stars that is expensive, it's the high price of mediocrity."
"We can't always guarantee the ball game is going to be good; but we can guarantee the fan will have fun."
"All I was saying was that a losing team, plus bread and circuses, was better than a losing team and a long, still silence."
MSF, in its ideal form, would provide a friendly atmosphere for games so that, regardless of the product on the field, students, alums, and anyone else in the area might want to spend 3 hours of their saturday there. If the University is going to make each sporting event held at MSF a fan-friendly production, then there is value in continuing the football program. If the University continues to treat football games like an obligation, barely putting in enough effort to allow the game to be played (and even then, can someone say scoreboard malfunction?!?) then students will continue to treat the games as their Saturday Obligation and only the truly devoted members of the Church of Hoya Sports will attend. If the University cannot summon the energy/creativity to put on 6 enthusiastic football games each fall-- then why keep the program going?
|
|
|
Post by 98hoya on Dec 3, 2008 15:30:44 GMT -5
I don't have any connections in the athletic department, but might it be a good idea for someone who does to take the affirmative step of asking a representative from the department to participate in this discussion?
I mean that literally - I'd like for someone from the athletic department to exchange ideas with real people instead of having the whole AD operating behind a curtain, emerging only to make occasional pronouncements (and usually disappointing ones)
|
|