Most Overrated/Underrated Hoya Ever?

[SirSaxa]

Jul 20, 2008 21:13:00 GMT -5 idhoya said:

true. Just sayin. Mike's skill set is so much better.

Absolutely. With more motivation and conditioning, no reason Mike wouldn't be in the league right now.

[Hoya TMF]

Jul 18, 2008 20:30:22 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

I didn't say Esh ruined Sweetney; I said he wasted him. Very few coaches would have missed the NCAAs with Sweetney on their team. Esh did it twice.

The idea that those teams didn't win because Mike wasn't enough of a leader is silly to me.

Amen. It's disappointing that a kid with that kind of skill and those kinds of numbers, never really got the love he deserved from the National Media. And that's because our program was not as respected as it is now and we didn't win enough games. Winning changes everyone's perspective. Jeff won BE POY and Mike almost doubled his scoring and rebounding numbers. If were were even close to the top of the BE Mike's soph or junior year, he runs away with that award and at least some kind of all-american honors.

[swhoya]

Jul 20, 2008 20:13:50 GMT -5 the_way said:

Jul 20, 2008 11:57:45 GMT -5 swhoya said:

I agree with Sweets...I would have loved to see him do so much more in the NBA. But I'm not sure that I agree with the posters that have indicated he lacked discipline or "ate" himself out of the NBA. I used to see him running long distances off of campus (and it was quite a sight to see Big Mike lumbering along). He certainly worked hard on his weight when he was in college; I can't imagine he didn't do the same in the NBA, especially when he had trainers and everything else. I'm not trying to prompt a discussion here, but I wonder if there wasn't something physical going on there that no one here knows about. It just seems too trite to blame him not knowing the facts.

You saw Mike running because Ronny Thompson was on his butt 24/7 when he was an assistant here. Mike is the type that needs somebody on him to do something. HE needs to be pushed. Esh stated that Mike needed to be more vocal and be more of a leader as well. He isn't a guy who will go out and do it on his own. When he went to the NBA he was on his own, and its no surprise he got fat and is now basically out of the league.

Its not to say Mike is a bad guy or bad player. But what makes the great players great players and the great talents just average players or just good, is not just talent...its also attitude. Mike was a passive guy.

Do you actually know Mike, or are you just guessing at all of this? And are you suggesting that the NBA didn't have people pushing him too?

Maybe you do know him or more about the situation, and if so then I'll take your word for it. But it seems like we do a lot of assuming on this board not actually knowing what is going on. Just looking at Mike and his body type, it doesn't seem to me to be implausible that there may be more going on there than simply saying he's lazy or eats too much.

[the_way]

Jul 21, 2008 8:50:01 GMT -5 Hoya TMF said:

Jul 18, 2008 20:30:22 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

I didn't say Esh ruined Sweetney; I said he wasted him. Very few coaches would have missed the NCAAs with Sweetney on their team. Esh did it twice.

The idea that those teams didn't win because Mike wasn't enough of a leader is silly to me.

Amen. It's disappointing that a kid with that kind of skill and those kinds of numbers, never really got the love he deserved from the National Media. And that's because our program was not as respected as it is now and we didn't win enough games. Winning changes everyone's perspective. Jeff won BE POY and Mike almost doubled his scoring and rebounding numbers. If were were even close to the top of the BE Mike's soph or junior year, he runs away with that award and at least some kind of all-american honors.

Mike was nowhere near the player that Jeff Green was. Mike never got the love because he didn't deserve it. Great players make their team better, not just fill up a stat sheet. Mike didn't. Jeff Green did.

We are talking about overrated players, right? You can add Mike Sweetney to the list. Put Jeff Green on those last 2 teams Mike played for, and they go to the NCAA tournament.

Jeff was a leader, he had intangibles. Mike didn't have anything of those things. He put up a lot of numbers, and what did it mean in the end? So how "great" was he. How much of an impact did he make, really? And people knew that. Jeff's numbers when he was one Big East POY weren't great. They actually make you scratch your head. But if you watch the games, and they see all the things Jeff did for G-town, his intangibles, his leadership, etc. it was a no-brainer. Sweetney stuffed stats.

Great players change the dynamics of a team. Iverson did that when he got here. Ewing did that when he got here. Zo did that when he got here. Jeff Green did that when he got here.

What did Sweets do? Sweets was not that type of player. But folks keeping hyping as though he was. Sweets was another Othella Harrington. Solid, good player. But not on the level of a Iverson, Ewing, Sleepy, Reggie, Zo, Page, Butler, Graham, Mutumbo, or even a Jerome Williams, etc.

Mike played with talent. Sweetney had better talent around him his last 2 years at G-town than Zo did his last 2 years at Georgetown. Get real.

[prhoya]

Mike was a victim of the system, Esh's system, or lack thereof.

[the_way]

Jul 21, 2008 10:51:53 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Mike was a victim of the system, Esh's system, or lack thereof.

A system that allowed him to put all those numbers.

Yeah, sure.

[prhoya]

While losing...

[the_way]

Jul 21, 2008 11:04:54 GMT -5 prhoya said:

While losing...

Then its Mike's fault, since he was the system.

If he was that great, they would win and get to the tournament.

Like the Hoyas did with Zo his senior year. Who had less talent around him than Sweets did.

You can't have it both ways.

See, you can't blame Esh, when Esh got him the ball 24/7. That was the system. Helped him put up all those stats.

So if they lose, its Esh's fault for making Mike the entire offense.

Meaning, Mike wasn't great or good enough to warrant that much responsibility.

try again.

Can't say its Esh's entire fault when he gave Mike the keys to the car and they still couldn't drive anywhere.

[prhoya]

But, that was Esh's mistake. Everyone knew that the ball was coming to Mike after using much of the clock, which led to that pathetic offensive strategy. Granted, there wasn't much talent, but Esh didn't make the players better. Hell, BB tried to escape twice.

[Fan Of The Game]

Great question.

Biggest question is whether we're talking about over-rated recruit who didn't pan out, or who people remember as being good even if he didn't always deliver.

I think this chatboard overrates DJ Owens. And underrates Joey Brown.

[SFHoya99]

Esh had a ridiculously awful record in close games. That's not Mike's fault. He didn't choke down the stretch -- he never got the ball.

Esh also failed to put any talent around Mike after freshman year.

[the_way]

Jul 21, 2008 12:29:30 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Esh had a ridiculously awful record in close games. That's not Mike's fault. He didn't choke down the stretch -- he never got the ball.

Esh also failed to put any talent around Mike after freshman year.

JT2 failed to put any talent around Zo after his freshman year.

They still made the tournament. Zo made it with less his junior and senior years. Whats Mike's excuse, if he was that great?

[SirSaxa]

Jul 21, 2008 12:56:34 GMT -5 the_way said:

Jul 21, 2008 12:29:30 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

Esh had a ridiculously awful record in close games. That's not Mike's fault. He didn't choke down the stretch -- he never got the ball.

Esh also failed to put any talent around Mike after freshman year.

JT2 failed to put any talent around Zo after his freshman year.

They still made the tournament. Zo made it with less his junior and senior years. Whats Mike's excuse, if he was that great?

That question has a two-part answer.

Part 1. Sweetney was great, but no one said he was as great as Zo.
Part 2. No one said Esh was as great as JT either.

[SFHoya99]

I never said Mike was as good as Zo. I simply think he was better than you think he is.

I also think Zo had better talent than Mike had around him, though as you say, it wasn't great talent.

[Filo]

Well, either way, the idea that Sweetney is/was over-rated as a Hoya is pretty extreme, and is an opinion espoused by very few Hoya fans. He was a great college player.

[idhoya]

Okay, let's put Joey to rest. He was a gutsy, smart basketball player. He had no shooters around him, including himself. He also got beaten off the dribble more than he should have. Basically, he was JT on the floor; very little offensive, but a scrapper who played D but couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. And I'm a Joey fan! He was what he was. He'd been alot better if John Jacques, Churchwell, Lamont Morgan, etc. could shoot. The fact is they couldn't either. The joke about the GU offense at the time with my friends was Zo and everyone else running around in a circle. I don't think he was over or underrated.

[vamosalaplaya]

Alonzo had Mutombo, Bryant, and Tillmon around him as a sophomore, and Dikembe with him as a junior. In considering this question, I thought about throwing Mutombo out as "over-rated" since in Mourning's junior year, Mutombo's last, GU finished 8-8 in conference, 19-13 overall - Mutombo was a sub on the 89 team, when he started GU didn't do much. Those two years where you had Mutombo and Mourning together on the front line were surprisingly light - no BE titles, no BET titles, second round NCAA exits.

Alonzo did take GU to the tourney his senior year with stats resembling Sweetney's. But you can't say Alonzo had better talent than Sweets did most of the time he was here.

[the_way]

Jul 21, 2008 13:49:08 GMT -5 vamosalaplaya said:

Alonzo had Mutombo, Bryant, and Tillmon around him as a sophomore, and Dikembe with him as a junior. In considering this question, I thought about throwing Mutombo out as "over-rated" since in Mourning's junior year, Mutombo's last, GU finished 8-8 in conference, 19-13 overall - Mutombo was a sub on the 89 team, when he started GU didn't do much. Those two years where you had Mutombo and Mourning together on the front line were surprisingly light - no BE titles, no BET titles, second round NCAA exits.

Alonzo did take GU to the tourney his senior year with stats resembling Sweetney's. But you can't say Alonzo had better talent than Sweets did most of the time he was here.

Read what I said. I specifically said when Zo had less talent around him compared to Sweets.

AND, JT failed to put talent around Zo after his freshman year. Bryant and Tillmon were leftovers from 87. David Edwards was the most talented player JT2 provided Zo after his freshman year. And he was gone after his 1st year.

[swhoya]

Jul 21, 2008 14:02:36 GMT -5 the_way said:

Jul 21, 2008 13:49:08 GMT -5 vamosalaplaya said:

Alonzo had Mutombo, Bryant, and Tillmon around him as a sophomore, and Dikembe with him as a junior. In considering this question, I thought about throwing Mutombo out as "over-rated" since in Mourning's junior year, Mutombo's last, GU finished 8-8 in conference, 19-13 overall - Mutombo was a sub on the 89 team, when he started GU didn't do much. Those two years where you had Mutombo and Mourning together on the front line were surprisingly light - no BE titles, no BET titles, second round NCAA exits.

Alonzo did take GU to the tourney his senior year with stats resembling Sweetney's. But you can't say Alonzo had better talent than Sweets did most of the time he was here.

Read what I said. I specifically said when Zo had less talent around him compared to Sweets.

AND, JT failed to put talent around Zo after his freshman year. Bryant and Tillmon were leftovers from 87. David Edwards was the most talented player JT2 provided Zo after his freshman year. And he was gone after his 1st year.

So I take it from everything you're saying is that you didn't know a single thing you were talking about with regards to Sweetney. You don't know if he is or isn't actually lazy, you just like to assume the worse about pretty much anyone.

Which I usually don't care about, except when it's about a good kid who did a heck of a lot for the program. Do I think Sweetney was better than Jeff? Probably not. But he was a damn good player, and the few interactions I had with him, he was a heck of a nice guy.

[RDF]

Zo was out injured most of that year where they went 8-8 so it was a "crude" offensive player in Dikembe and a bunch of kids who couldn't shoot--8-8 was a friggin MIRACLE in the Big East-and when Zo came back they actually got to the Big East title game and lost to Seton Hall, and gave UNLV's top seeded/undefeated team a decent game-which they could've won if anyone outside of Mourning/Mutombo could do anything.