Most Overrated/Underrated Hoya Ever?

[blueandgray]

Jul 18, 2008 15:17:18 GMT -5 swhoya said:

Did you ever watch the guy play? And Bolden never played with him.

Sorry, but I watched get us burned way too many times with his o-lay style defense. Watched him dribble into nothing too many times. Watched KB put up too many contested, bad 3's to end games to not think he's overrated. I gotta think we might have won a few more games if he'd ever given the rock up once or twice (the ND game is the most obvious example, but there are others). And those players you mention weren't that bad. And even if they were, he did the EXACT SAME THING when we had Sweets, who was a MUCH better player than Braswell. If Braswell was that good of a player, he would have had the sense to give it to the big fella more often; instead, a ridiculous number of Sweet's shots came from cleaning up KB's garbage.

I've given credit where it's due--his UVA performance was AWESOME. And he certainly got quite a bit out of his abilities. But he's still overrated. And would you have him start over JWallace or Jessie? No, of course not. So if you can't say you'd have him start over those two guys, how can you not say he's overrated? (And I meant this coming year's team. Maybe I would have taken him over Rivers, it would be close, but frankly coming off the bench I valued Rivers' defense more than KB's).

Edit: Sapp at the end against West Virginia. JWallace against Marquette (and oh, yeah, UNC). Yeah, I wouldn't take KB over those guys any day.

I watched every televised game braswell ever played...and if I were you, i'd brush up on my hoya history before making such bold statements about bolden.

for the record, I don't think bras starts over jwall or sapp...but would have certainly been the first guard off the bench. too suggest that bras wasn't even good enough to be part of the hoya backcourt is a joke.

[blueandgray]

Jul 18, 2008 17:59:12 GMT -5 the_way said:

First off guys, I want to say these are some great discussions.

Man, these threads lately have me coming back from hiatus. Now we are talking about what i love most....Hoya basketball....and not that other...fluff...


Anyway, with regards to Othella. You guys raise some good counter-arguments.

I think

Given the hype and expectation O had coming out of high school and into G-town, he was a bust...to put it midly. One of the biggest busts in Hoya history. I remember the hype as a kid. Every school wanted O, like they did Zo and Ewing during their time. In fact, G-town NEEDED to land Othella at that time, because JT2 had been sitting on his buttocks on the recruiting trail for some time. So many recruits who WANTED to come to G-town, JT2 wasn't even interested in putting the effort towards. So landing a big recruit like O was seen as a life-savior for the program.

now just looking at his career without the hype, he was a solid player. I don't think it was a travesty that Hoyas went to a more up-tempo style and left O out of the picture once Iverson arrived. It was the best move, because O was not good enough to carry a team like Iverson could.

As far as O as a power forward, I don't see it at all. I think his instincts, build, and moves are that of a true center, its just that he is 6'8" to 6'9". I think O would have a hard time at PF, especially on the defensive end. If he had the athleticism that Don Reid or Jahidi had as big men, then I would agree. I think O was best in the middle.


I love Joey Brown. Played hard and gave it everything he had. I never saw him as the problem at all. He was one of the few bright spots in those lean years at G-town during his career. I think the Joey Brown era, talent-wise, and recruiting-wise was the lowest point of JT2's era.

Just think about it. They had Lamont Morgan, Joey Brown, Charles Harrison, and Brian Kelly to go along with Mutumbo and Mourning. Not to mention Ronny Thompson coming off the bench. Churchwell was a solid player though. It just shows how good Mourning was to carry a team with Irving Church, Morgan, Brown, Harrell, Patterson, Millen, Jacues etc during his senior year.

Also don't understand the Braswell hate either. Braswell, another B-more guy, was excellent. He had guts, he was a go-to-guy and a playmaker. I think folks hate him because he was so close with Esh and Esh said he was his favorite player.

Also, Sweetney was cool and all, but nobody ruined Mike Sweetney and Esh did not ruingMike Sweetney. They fed the ball to Mike every chance they got. And Mike put up good numbers. Mike hurt himself by not being a leader. Never exerted leadership skills. Wasn't a self-starter. And you can see that by how he ate himself out of the NBA.

Its kind of weird. If you put O's intangibles with Sweetney's skillset, you would have a great player there.

ditto. great post.

[FewFAC]

Jul 18, 2008 15:30:12 GMT -5 SirSaxa said:

The things that people liked about Joey (I think) were his determination and fight. He gave 110% all the time. He was quite a good defender and he got the most out of his limited ability as an overall player.

I get this point, but if I read this without having a name attached, the first thought to enter my mind would be a laundry list of Duke PGs: Hurley, Chris Collins, Wojo, Paulus...just saying.

Also, I understand the allure of these conversations, but threads like this make me a little uneasy, because (for the most part) these guys sacrificed a great deal and gave a lot to Georgetown, whether they were the best/worst ever, or over/underrated ever. And I appreciate that they gave that effort, results notwithstanding. You always want the team to perform better than it does, and I, for one, feel really grateful when the team performs far better than I could ever expect.

Besides, very few HTers could have done it better...

[SFHoya99]

I didn't say Esh ruined Sweetney; I said he wasted him. Very few coaches would have missed the NCAAs with Sweetney on their team. Esh did it twice.

The idea that those teams didn't win because Mike wasn't enough of a leader is silly to me.

[HoyaChris]

Jul 18, 2008 17:59:12 GMT -5 the_way said:

First off guys, I want to say these are some great discussions.

Man, these threads lately have me coming back from hiatus. Now we are talking about what i love most....Hoya basketball....and not that other...fluff...


Anyway, with regards to Othella. You guys raise some good counter-arguments.



Given the hype and expectation O had coming out of high school and into G-town, he was a bust...to put it midly. One of the biggest busts in Hoya history. I remember the hype as a kid. Every school wanted O, like they did Zo and Ewing during their time. In fact, G-town NEEDED to land Othella at that time, because JT2 had been sitting on his buttocks on the recruiting trail for some time. So many recruits who WANTED to come to G-town, JT2 wasn't even interested in putting the effort towards. So landing a big recruit like O was seen as a life-savior for the program.

now just looking at his career without the hype, he was a solid player. I don't think it was a travesty that Hoyas went to a more up-tempo style and left O out of the picture once Iverson arrived. It was the best move, because O was not good enough to carry a team like Iverson could.

As far as O as a power forward, I don't see it at all. I think his instincts, build, and moves are that of a true center, its just that he is 6'8" to 6'9". I think O would have a hard time at PF, especially on the defensive end. If he had the athleticism that Don Reid or Jahidi had as big men, then I would agree. I think O was best in the middle.


I love Joey Brown. Played hard and gave it everything he had. I never saw him as the problem at all. He was one of the few bright spots in those lean years at G-town during his career. I think the Joey Brown era, talent-wise, and recruiting-wise was the lowest point of JT2's era.

Just think about it. They had Lamont Morgan, Joey Brown, Charles Harrison, and Brian Kelly to go along with Mutumbo and Mourning. Not to mention Ronny Thompson coming off the bench. Churchwell was a solid player though. It just shows how good Mourning was to carry a team with Irving Church, Morgan, Brown, Harrell, Patterson, Millen, Jacues etc during his senior year.

Also don't understand the Braswell hate either. Braswell, another B-more guy, was excellent. He had guts, he was a go-to-guy and a playmaker. I think folks hate him because he was so close with Esh and Esh said he was his favorite player.

Also, Sweetney was cool and all, but nobody ruined Mike Sweetney and Esh did not ruingMike Sweetney. They fed the ball to Mike every chance they got. And Mike put up good numbers. Mike hurt himself by not being a leader. Never exerted leadership skills. Wasn't a self-starter. And you can see that by how he ate himself out of the NBA.

Its kind of weird. If you put O's intangibles with Sweetney's skillset, you would have a great player there.

I think it is just silly to suggest that Othella would not have been a good college power forward as he has just finished his 12th year as an NBA power forward.

[RDF]

Jul 18, 2008 20:15:59 GMT -5 FewFAC said:

Jul 18, 2008 15:30:12 GMT -5 SirSaxa said:

The things that people liked about Joey (I think) were his determination and fight. He gave 110% all the time. He was quite a good defender and he got the most out of his limited ability as an overall player.

I get this point, but if I read this without having a name attached, the first thought to enter my mind would be a laundry list of Duke PGs: Hurley, Chris Collins, Wojo, Paulus...just saying.

How did Bobby Hurley--one of the great college point guards get put here? He wasn't pretty-but he was a GREAT COLLEGE player. Chris Collins wasn't a PG at Duke either and every guy listed here was 10 times the shooter Joey Brown was.

[Just Cos]

Underrated = Jaren Jackson
Overrated = Anthony Perry (unless I can use Esh)

Regarding Braswell, I just don't get the love he gets. Sure he could have been better under a different coach, but he just was so scary (bad) with the ball. I'm stuck on whether it was him or coaching. That's a great conversation.

Regarding Sweetney, SF said it right with the fact that almost any team could have made the NCAA tourney with him on the roster. It is too bad that his NBA career was not more impressive and I don't want to get into that discussion. If this thread was about most underrated Hoya post Georgetown, then he would have to be on the short list.

[idhoya]

Bobby Winston

[FewFAC]

Jul 19, 2008 1:30:49 GMT -5 RDF said:

Jul 18, 2008 20:15:59 GMT -5 FewFAC said:

I get this point, but if I read this without having a name attached, the first thought to enter my mind would be a laundry list of Duke PGs: Hurley, Chris Collins, Wojo, Paulus...just saying.

How did Bobby Hurley--one of the great college point guards get put here? He wasn't pretty-but he was a GREAT COLLEGE player. Chris Collins wasn't a PG at Duke either and every guy listed here was 10 times the shooter Joey Brown was.

C'mon RDF. Defending Duke PGs? I expect so much better from you. Anyways, my point was just that what everybody "loved" about Joey is basically what everyone hates about Duke PGs. Just a little bit of cognitive dissonance probably better left unsaid. I don't really want to discuss it much more than that.

[RDF]

I am not going to lie just because I hate Duke--Joey Brown went 1-0 against Duke in his career--which was Rat Boy's first title team too--but as MCIGuy pointed out--that was highlight win of his career. He's talked about by some as if he was a great player--the guy gave it his all--but he wouldn't get a sniff near the starting lineup on any successful Hoya team. Would've been a great backup guard--but as a starter is one of the more overrated Hoyas of all time.

[lichoya68]

underrated coming in and then greatest improvement adn then nba career was don reid bar non if thats the way you look at it GREAT HOYA hardest worker maybe ever yup and overratted stil think maybe jahadi mabye

[swhoya]

Jul 19, 2008 13:39:52 GMT -5 Just Cos said:

Underrated = Jaren Jackson
Overrated = Anthony Perry (unless I can use Esh)

Regarding Braswell, I just don't get the love he gets. Sure he could have been better under a different coach, but he just was so scary (bad) with the ball. I'm stuck on whether it was him or coaching. That's a great conversation.

Regarding Sweetney, SF said it right with the fact that almost any team could have made the NCAA tourney with him on the roster. It is too bad that his NBA career was not more impressive and I don't want to get into that discussion. If this thread was about most underrated Hoya post Georgetown, then he would have to be on the short list.

I agree with Sweets...I would have loved to see him do so much more in the NBA. But I'm not sure that I agree with the posters that have indicated he lacked discipline or "ate" himself out of the NBA. I used to see him running long distances off of campus (and it was quite a sight to see Big Mike lumbering along). He certainly worked hard on his weight when he was in college; I can't imagine he didn't do the same in the NBA, especially when he had trainers and everything else. I'm not trying to prompt a discussion here, but I wonder if there wasn't something physical going on there that no one here knows about. It just seems too trite to blame him not knowing the facts.

[daytonahoya31]

The silliest suggestion on this board in a long time comes from the people who think Othella was overrated. He may not have had the career that everyone thought he would have, but his numbers are way too good and he won way too many games in his career to be looked at as overrated.

It's sort of like the St. John's fans claiming Felipe Lopez was overrated when he scored 2,000 points in his career, something that only two other players in the history of that school did

[idhoya]

lopez came in with such unrealistic expectations that there was no way he coulda met them. Maybe had he won a couple of NC's it woulda helped, but he wasn't erasing thoughts of Chris Mullin no matter what he did.

[daytonahoya31]

Lopez is still, to this day, the best high school player I've ever seen, and that includes LeBron James. He was simply unreal at Rice

[lichoya68]

lopez was frequetnly EATEN UPBY THE HOYAS PERIOD DON REID BEST UNDERRATED HOYA EVER YUP

[the_way]

Jul 20, 2008 11:57:45 GMT -5 swhoya said:

Jul 19, 2008 13:39:52 GMT -5 Just Cos said:

Underrated = Jaren Jackson
Overrated = Anthony Perry (unless I can use Esh)

Regarding Braswell, I just don't get the love he gets. Sure he could have been better under a different coach, but he just was so scary (bad) with the ball. I'm stuck on whether it was him or coaching. That's a great conversation.

Regarding Sweetney, SF said it right with the fact that almost any team could have made the NCAA tourney with him on the roster. It is too bad that his NBA career was not more impressive and I don't want to get into that discussion. If this thread was about most underrated Hoya post Georgetown, then he would have to be on the short list.

I agree with Sweets...I would have loved to see him do so much more in the NBA. But I'm not sure that I agree with the posters that have indicated he lacked discipline or "ate" himself out of the NBA. I used to see him running long distances off of campus (and it was quite a sight to see Big Mike lumbering along). He certainly worked hard on his weight when he was in college; I can't imagine he didn't do the same in the NBA, especially when he had trainers and everything else. I'm not trying to prompt a discussion here, but I wonder if there wasn't something physical going on there that no one here knows about. It just seems too trite to blame him not knowing the facts.

You saw Mike running because Ronny Thompson was on his butt 24/7 when he was an assistant here. Mike is the type that needs somebody on him to do something. HE needs to be pushed. Esh stated that Mike needed to be more vocal and be more of a leader as well. He isn't a guy who will go out and do it on his own. When he went to the NBA he was on his own, and its no surprise he got fat and is now basically out of the league.

Its not to say Mike is a bad guy or bad player. But what makes the great players great players and the great talents just average players or just good, is not just talent...its also attitude. Mike was a passive guy.

[idhoya]

If tractor traylor is still around, sweets should still be around.

[the_way]

Jul 20, 2008 20:20:42 GMT -5 idhoya said:

If tractor traylor is still around, sweets should still be around.

Traylor could carry his weight, Mike can't.

[idhoya]

true. Just sayin. Mike's skill set is so much better.