Most Overrated/Underrated Hoya Ever?

[RDF]

Jul 18, 2008 9:23:40 GMT -5 the_way said:

overrated: Othella Harrington.

O played against weak competition in high school. I think he was the #2 high school rebounder of all time in the country. He averaged like 24 rebounds (yes 24) a game his senior. And yes he was the #1 player coming out of high school. Every school wanted. The McDonalds all-merican, it was the Jason Kidd and Othella show. I think O had like 21 rebounds that game too.

When he came to g-town, you saw his flaws immediately. And the number 1 flaw was that he wasn't the type of player he was hyped up to be. Its why we missed the NCAAA tournament for the first time during his freshman year. And barely got in his sophomore year.

And O had to play center by default due to his poor athleticism. He couldn't jump and he lacked lateral movement. If he was 7'1 it wouldn't be a problem. But at 6'8/6'9' its a liability. He had small hands and couldn't palm the ball. He also lacked a killer instinct.

O really got exposed when G-town played Maryland and Joe Smith embarrassed him. That was after that big SI article about Hoya bigmen and how O was the next great one in line. Well, he got exposed by Joe Smith, who at that time, was just Joe Smith.

O did have good points about him. He was a good student, nice, and he gave it his all with what little he had. He also had a sweet touch on his jump shot. He was a solid player, but not the player he was recruited to be.

As far as underrated, I would have to go with David Wingate. People always talk about Reggie, and sometimes forget about the other star from B-more in Wingate. He was so good. He had a good offensive game too, but there was so much talent on his team, it wasn't needed like that. He was lightning quick, and could guard people. Ask Chris Mullin. A great all-around player. And he had lasted a good number of years in the NBA due to his defensive skills.

In regards to Othella's HS competition--you are absolutely correct Way.

In terms of his college production--have to disagree. Othella had like 16 and 15 or something like that--double/double in the game against Terps/Smith--and it's not like Joe Smith didn't end up the #1 overall pick in NBA Draft when he left college--so getting outplayed by a #1 pick isn't anything to be ashamed of--especially considering the guards Othella played with prior to Iverson's arrival. George Butler was only reason O's team in 1994 went to tournament--otherwise that crappy, non shooting team would've missed the tournament too. Harrington was great his FR season, solid the soph season--which Hoyas returned to NCAA, and the AI took over--and then AI/Page took over--but Harrington found ways to contribute/board--he just wasn't a great interior/back to basket Center. If you notice O's FR season--he took more baseline jumpers/FT area jumpers and scored. If he'd have played PF--he'd have killed with his jumper from 15-18 feet--with White/Williams there to board--but we saw him used in post.

I still wont' understand how Joey Brown ever ended up starting 4 years at Georgetown.

[kchoya]

Jul 18, 2008 9:23:40 GMT -5 the_way said:

overrated: Othella Harrington.



When he came to g-town, you saw his flaws immediately. And the number 1 flaw was that he wasn't the type of player he was hyped up to be. Its why we missed the NCAAA tournament for the first time during his freshman year. And barely got in his sophomore year.

He had Robert Churchwell, Joey Brown, Duane Spencer, Eric Micoud (!), John Jacques, Lonnie Harrell and Kevin Millen as the lead guys behind him and you're blaming Othella for not making the tourney?


I guess if you compare him to Ewing and Zo, he falls short. But he's right behind those guys and that's why I don't think he's overrated.

[swhoya]

Jul 18, 2008 12:42:28 GMT -5 blueandgray said:

Jul 18, 2008 9:03:06 GMT -5 Hoya TMF said:

kevin played two years with a guy named mike sweetney. i can't consider that team crappy. the team that went to the sweet sixteen had braswell, perry, mike, riley, ruben and eddie lee scruggs. of course we only went to the sweet 16 because hampton upset iowa state and nat burton rescued us agaisnt arkansas, but that team was not crappy. braswell just seemed to be a bad decision maker at times. his shot selection was particularly poor for someone playing with arguably the best low post scorer in college basketball for two years.

I think its fair to question bras' shot selection....but calling him overrated is out of the question. you make my point for me by mentioning that he and Sweets led us to the sweet 16 where we gave maryland a run for their money. this was done with esh at the helm no less. 2nd to sweets, bras was the man on that team and our floor general. forget the 40 points game bras went for...what about the 9 seed taking down the 1 seed (cuse) in the BE tourney where Bras won the player of the game. he was solid.

I put bras ahead of both dwayne bryant (speaking of overrated), and joey brown.... but well behind jwall.

Ild happily take a kevin braswell on this years team...wouldn't you?

Um, no, no, and HECK NO. I was the same years as Braswell, and I'll admit that outside of Sweetney, he gave us the best shot at winning a game as anyone. BUT, he also gave us the best shot at losing a game as anyone.

Maybe if he had played under a disciplined system, he might have been different, and maybe you could say those stats are legit. But the fact is he played poor defense, the number of steals notwithstanding. Don't believe it? Find 10 people on this board that would take Kevin to play defense instead of Rivers. Even JWallace, who wasn't a great defender and had limited athleticism, was a much better overall defender.

And his shooting? Please. How many DUMB DUMB DUMB shots did the man put up? The fact is that Kevin is the most overrated Hoya. Yes, he came through big in some games, but he was no where near as good as his stats indicated.

And take him on next years team? No way. Maybe Esh bears some of the blame, but Kevin had an ego twice the size of his body and had zero control. I wouldn't trade a single one of our current guards for him.

[chep3]

Jul 18, 2008 12:42:28 GMT -5 blueandgray said:

Ild happily take a kevin braswell on this years team...wouldn't you?

I think Braswell coached, and calmed down, by JTIII would have been a terrific PG. He was just too streaky of a player to support the way he chose to play.

[swhoya]

Maybe he would have been. But it's all speculation. But based on the way he did play, he's overrated.

[SirSaxa]

It's one thing to say that O -- the top rated player in HS -- was "overrated" because he did not become the #1 player in college.
(Keeping in mind that O himself had nothing whatsoever to do with the ratings.)

But it is another thing entirely to say he was The MOST Overrated player in Hoya History.
That statement is utterly absurd and indefensible.

[tashoya]

How about Jerome Williams for underrated? Juco to boarding BEAST!!! Loved that guy....

And I can't argue the Ticket for overrated.

[blueandgray]

Sirsaxa...you nailed it on the head with regard to O.

I don't get all the Bras bashing... pre-Sweets... he was forced to be the man because we had no other real options. He had a very raw RBB, Kilpatrick, Perry, Berry, Bolden... come on now... we all wanted him to put up the rock and try to make something out of nothing. WE HAD NOBODY!!!! If you told me that we'd make the Sweet 16 two years later... I would have never believed it. Moreover, I'd absolutely add him to this year's team... certainly over Rivers. Despite his size... Bras had an outside shot of making the Miami Heat. Of course you take him. The extent that people will go to make a point drives me nuts....Geez! We'd go from having a good backcourt to a very, very good backcourt.

[swhoya]

Did you ever watch the guy play? And Bolden never played with him.

Sorry, but I watched get us burned way too many times with his o-lay style defense. Watched him dribble into nothing too many times. Watched KB put up too many contested, bad 3's to end games to not think he's overrated. I gotta think we might have won a few more games if he'd ever given the rock up once or twice (the ND game is the most obvious example, but there are others). And those players you mention weren't that bad. And even if they were, he did the EXACT SAME THING when we had Sweets, who was a MUCH better player than Braswell. If Braswell was that good of a player, he would have had the sense to give it to the big fella more often; instead, a ridiculous number of Sweet's shots came from cleaning up KB's garbage.

I've given credit where it's due--his UVA performance was AWESOME. And he certainly got quite a bit out of his abilities. But he's still overrated. And would you have him start over JWallace or Jessie? No, of course not. So if you can't say you'd have him start over those two guys, how can you not say he's overrated? (And I meant this coming year's team. Maybe I would have taken him over Rivers, it would be close, but frankly coming off the bench I valued Rivers' defense more than KB's).

Edit: Sapp at the end against West Virginia. JWallace against Marquette (and oh, yeah, UNC). Yeah, I wouldn't take KB over those guys any day.

[vcjack]

What I'm seeing in this thread is people defining overatted as "failing to live up to high school expectations" while underrated is "not given enough credit for how good they were". In my mind overatted means that something is "given too much undeserved credit while not being that good" ala Booeymongers*. I'd call guys like Harangody overrated even though he is a good player and (presumably) has exceeded expectations people had of him out of highschool. Likewise I wouldn't call JWall underated (by the Hoya fan base) even though there is the whole "Princeton walk-on" story. I guess its media and fan hype vs highschool hype






*no I don't want to get into that debate again

[SFHoya99]

So many people think Kevin Braswell was overrated that he's not overrated. You can't argue a guy is overrated by arguing he wouldn't start over Wallace -- you have to incorporate how people actually view him as well. And I don't think many people think Braswell was that good of a player.

The player I don't get the worship of is the same as RDF: Joey Brown. I think if you had a poll, people would say Joey was both above average and better than Braswell. I don't think he would've started if he had come to Georgetown in many different eras.

[SFHoya99]

Jul 18, 2008 15:20:55 GMT -5 vcjack said:

What I'm seeing in this thread is people defining overatted as "failing to live up to high school expectations" while underrated is "not given enough credit for how good they were". In my mind overatted means that something is "given too much undeserved credit while not being that good" ala Booeymongers*. I'd call guys like Harangody overrated even though he is a good player and (presumably) has exceeded expectations people had of him out of highschool. I guess its media and fan hype vs highschool hype






*no I don't want to get into that debate again

Personally, I find the overrated/underrated coming out of high school too easy. We've had a bunch of All-American busts and a bunch of absolute nobodies make the NBA. We know who they are.

More interesting to me is your definition: who does this board rate much higher than you do? Who does it rate much lower than you do?

My overrated players (mostly 90s and 00s since that is when I watched): Joey Brown, Shenard Long

My underrated: Mike Sweetney (biggest crime of Esherick's reign was wasting Mike Sweetney). I know most people think he was good, but I think I probably have him as a better player than most would.

[SirSaxa]

Jul 18, 2008 15:22:02 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

So many people think Kevin Braswell was overrated that he's not overrated. You can't argue a guy is overrated by arguing he wouldn't start over Wallace -- you have to incorporate how people actually view him as well. And I don't think many people think Braswell was that good of a player.

The player I don't get the worship of is the same as RDF: Joey Brown. I think if you had a poll, people would say Joey was both above average and better than Braswell. I don't think he would've started if he had come to Georgetown in many different eras.

Have you really perceived a "worship" of Joey Brown?

The things that people liked about Joey (I think) were his determination and fight. He gave 110% all the time. He was quite a good defender and he got the most out of his limited ability as an overall player.

Those are admirable qualities.
But they don't put him in the category of truly great Hoya guards like (in no particular order)
Sleepy
Duren
Smitty
M Jackson
D Jackson
AI
Wallace
J. Smith

or even pretty darn good ones like
Jessie
Dwayne
Ashanti
Fred

[EasyEd]

I've always said Mike Sweetney was the best offensive big man we've ever had. He could flat-out score. And he is not recognized as being in the top echelon of Hoya big men. So I think he is highly underrated.

[swhoya]

Jul 18, 2008 15:22:02 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

So many people think Kevin Braswell was overrated that he's not overrated. You can't argue a guy is overrated by arguing he wouldn't start over Wallace -- you have to incorporate how people actually view him as well. And I don't think many people think Braswell was that good of a player.

The player I don't get the worship of is the same as RDF: Joey Brown. I think if you had a poll, people would say Joey was both above average and better than Braswell. I don't think he would've started if he had come to Georgetown in many different eras.

Fair enough, except that I mentioned his overinflated stats earlier, plus his ranking in the Top 100.

[SirSaxa]

Jul 18, 2008 15:26:35 GMT -5 SFHoya99 said:

My underrated: Mike Sweetney (biggest crime of Esherick's reign was wasting Mike Sweetney). I know most people think he was good, but I think I probably have him as a better player than most would.

really?

Well, now we are down to guessing what the consensus of the board is about a particular player. Maybe you are right. For me, when he left GU he was the #6 player of the Thompson era, which is just where HoyaChris ranked him. Right ahead of Duren and Shelton, Derrick Jackson, and just behind the almost impenetrable Top 5.

Since then, I have revised my top 6 and Sweetney just dropped down to #7 having been replaced by Jeff Green.

Still waiting on HoyaChris' revised/updated Top 50.
[Hey Chris, sorry but I just can't resist these occasional reminders!]


Maybe you and I have him up higher than most on this board SF?
But my sense has always been people here think he was one terrific Hoya.

[SFHoya99]

And that's what I agree with SirSaxa. But there's definitely a contingent who view Joey as further up that list. It isn't as prominent now, but in the days of the old board, Joey was held in high reverence. Perhaps that's no longer true.

That's the problem with overrated discussions. They need to start with where someone is "rated" and that's hard to pin down. If you are using DFW's list, I think the biggest issue is not enough of an adjustment for who won. I'm one of the biggest proponents of stats on the board, but if you don't adjust for the ultimate statistic -- Wins and Losses -- or playing time or competition, they lose a lot of their relevance because someone has to score and rebound, etc.

On the other hand, too, it's always tough to gauge how much having talented teammates helps a player and the perception of them. Gene Smith is #68 on DFW's list, which may be right or wrong, but he's generally viewed very favorably. But he was a defensive specialist and I wonder if he is viewed as favorably with a coach who didn't use him as aggressively or a team that needed more scoring from him.

[richfame]

Instead of most underrated/overrated player how about the most underachieving/overachieving team.. After iverson left how did coach thompson get 20 wins out of the 96-97 team.. The starting lineup i believe was Dia, Aw, Sheffy, White and Page.. That was amazing..

[SFHoya99]

Jul 18, 2008 15:51:23 GMT -5 richfame said:

Instead of most underrated/overrated player how about the most underachieving/overachieving team.. After iverson left how did coach thompson get 20 wins out of the 96-97 team.. The starting lineup i believe was Dia, Aw, Sheffy, White and Page.. That was amazing..

Definitely a great job. Those teams after AI were completely decimated by academic casualties and other transfers. Even with AI leaving, we had a wave of guards who were very talented -- Page, Sheffey, Brunner, Long, etc., but couldn't stick around.

[the_way]

First off guys, I want to say these are some great discussions.

Man, these threads lately have me coming back from hiatus. Now we are talking about what i love most....Hoya basketball....and not that other...fluff...


Anyway, with regards to Othella. You guys raise some good counter-arguments.

I think

Given the hype and expectation O had coming out of high school and into G-town, he was a bust...to put it midly. One of the biggest busts in Hoya history. I remember the hype as a kid. Every school wanted O, like they did Zo and Ewing during their time. In fact, G-town NEEDED to land Othella at that time, because JT2 had been sitting on his buttocks on the recruiting trail for some time. So many recruits who WANTED to come to G-town, JT2 wasn't even interested in putting the effort towards. So landing a big recruit like O was seen as a life-savior for the program.

now just looking at his career without the hype, he was a solid player. I don't think it was a travesty that Hoyas went to a more up-tempo style and left O out of the picture once Iverson arrived. It was the best move, because O was not good enough to carry a team like Iverson could.

As far as O as a power forward, I don't see it at all. I think his instincts, build, and moves are that of a true center, its just that he is 6'8" to 6'9". I think O would have a hard time at PF, especially on the defensive end. If he had the athleticism that Don Reid or Jahidi had as big men, then I would agree. I think O was best in the middle.


I love Joey Brown. Played hard and gave it everything he had. I never saw him as the problem at all. He was one of the few bright spots in those lean years at G-town during his career. I think the Joey Brown era, talent-wise, and recruiting-wise was the lowest point of JT2's era.

Just think about it. They had Lamont Morgan, Joey Brown, Charles Harrison, and Brian Kelly to go along with Mutumbo and Mourning. Not to mention Ronny Thompson coming off the bench. Churchwell was a solid player though. It just shows how good Mourning was to carry a team with Irving Church, Morgan, Brown, Harrell, Patterson, Millen, Jacues etc during his senior year.

Also don't understand the Braswell hate either. Braswell, another B-more guy, was excellent. He had guts, he was a go-to-guy and a playmaker. I think folks hate him because he was so close with Esh and Esh said he was his favorite player.

Also, Sweetney was cool and all, but nobody ruined Mike Sweetney and Esh did not ruingMike Sweetney. They fed the ball to Mike every chance they got. And Mike put up good numbers. Mike hurt himself by not being a leader. Never exerted leadership skills. Wasn't a self-starter. And you can see that by how he ate himself out of the NBA.

Its kind of weird. If you put O's intangibles with Sweetney's skillset, you would have a great player there.