Big Shoes to Fill? I Don't Buy It.

[Big Dog]

I guess this reaction is spurred by the article in today's Hartford Courant that I posted on the media coverage thread, but I really don't buy the "he's always going to be compared to his dad, and when he doesn't achieve immediately what his dad did, people will be upset" line of thinking.

I don't know about the others around here, but I for one am SO STARVED for even MODEST success that its not going to take a great deal for me to feel like this was a good hire. I certainly don't expect JTIII to deliver national championships back to Georgetown. That is an EXTREMELY tall order. Its hard to expect that of any new hire.

But I think more important is the fact that the Esherick era lasted so long and the last Thompson years were so disappointing, that most of us are ready to evaluate a new coach on his own merits, no matter who is father is or what he did. I think Esh bore the brunt of having to fill JT's shoes. I think we've all got a new frame of reference now.

I'll be disappointed if the JTIII era means a HoyaTalk board full of "his father wouldn't have done that" threads. We know all of the challenges Georgetown basketball faces. Fixing them is going to take time, and the commitment of more than just a new head coach.

[SaxaCD]

I think you're right -- if he had immediately followed his father, I could see the comparisons, but I think right now people will either look upon his tenure as "more of the same" -- which would be bad -- or a "Hoya rebirth", which of course would be good. What I don't see is a big JT vs JT3 comparison, unless he does very well. Otherwise, he'll be measured compared to the past few years, the last of his father's regime and all of Craig's.

[SFHoya99]

Simply put, the Georgetown job is not a high pressure job.

[SoCalHoya]

Essentially, the only shoes JT III will be filling (in the short run) are Esherick's.

5-10 years down the line, if we are (fingers firmly crossed) competitive, then the larger JT Jr. shoes will be looking for someone to fill them.

All I want is to be competitive again. I don't think that's too much to ask. A rallying point for students/alumni/community/fans.

[madgesiq92]

Apr 21, 2004 12:19:14 GMT -5 SoCalHoya said:

Essentially, the only shoes JT III will be filling (in the short run) are Esherick's.

5-10 years down the line, if we are (fingers firmly crossed) competitive, then the larger JT Jr. shoes will be looking for someone to fill them.

All I want is to be competitive again. I don't think that's too much to ask. A rallying point for students/alumni/community/fans.

There is a lot of delusion on this board about the state of the program that JT3 took over, a program in the proverbial toilet that many wanted just to see "be competitive again"". If JT3 were to leave tomorrow, next year, or in 2020, he will have left the program in far better position than he took over. The program hadn't won a Big East title since 1989 and been in a Final Four since 1985 when he took over. He took over a program where Harvey Thomas was the prized recruit, Drew Hall was taking 30 footers with 5 seconds left in tie games, 6 men were occasionally on the court, the AD was telling alumni that the NCAA tournament was an unreasonable expectation, and an NIT banner was hung over the urinals by a coach who was threatening with one fist to be here for 30 more years.

www.weeklystandard.com/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-hoya-nation/article/3526

[prhoya]

Mar 6, 2017 5:50:37 GMT -5 madgesiq92 said:

Apr 21, 2004 12:19:14 GMT -5 SoCalHoya said:

Essentially, the only shoes JT III will be filling (in the short run) are Esherick's.

5-10 years down the line, if we are (fingers firmly crossed) competitive, then the larger JT Jr. shoes will be looking for someone to fill them.

All I want is to be competitive again. I don't think that's too much to ask. A rallying point for students/alumni/community/fans.

There is a lot of delusion on this board about the state of the program that JT3 took over, a program in the proverbial toilet that many wanted just to see "be competitive again"". If JT3 were to leave tomorrow, next year, or in 2020, he will have left the program in far better position than he took over. The program hadn't won a Big East title since 1989 and been in a Final Four since 1985 when he took over. He took over a program where Harvey Thomas was the prized recruit, Drew Hall was taking 30 footers with 5 seconds left in tie games, 6 men were occasionally on the court, the AD was telling alumni that the NCAA tournament was an unreasonable expectation, and an NIT banner was hung over the urinals by a coach who was threatening with one fist to be here for 30 more years.

www.weeklystandard.com/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-hoya-nation/article/3526

No delusion. The team sucked then, the team sucks now. The only difference is the lack of a quote or incident from one of the Thompsons similar to Esh's 30-year quote. Now, if the Tyler Crawford bullying threat is somehow connected to JT2 (I'm not saying that it is), then that could be it. From lurking at Casual, I read that Hadar felt threatened, had a group of friends with him, and is insulted by the program and the University. Somehow I don't think this is going away quietly as everyone around the Thompsons would like.

[madgesiq92]

Mar 6, 2017 6:58:57 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Mar 6, 2017 5:50:37 GMT -5 madgesiq92 said:

There is a lot of delusion on this board about the state of the program that JT3 took over, a program in the proverbial toilet that many wanted just to see "be competitive again"". If JT3 were to leave tomorrow, next year, or in 2020, he will have left the program in far better position than he took over. The program hadn't won a Big East title since 1989 and been in a Final Four since 1985 when he took over. He took over a program where Harvey Thomas was the prized recruit, Drew Hall was taking 30 footers with 5 seconds left in tie games, 6 men were occasionally on the court, the AD was telling alumni that the NCAA tournament was an unreasonable expectation, and an NIT banner was hung over the urinals by a coach who was threatening with one fist to be here for 30 more years.

www.weeklystandard.com/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-hoya-nation/article/3526

No delusion. The team sucked then, the team sucks now. The only difference is the lack of a quote from one of the Thompsons similar to Esh's 30-year quote.

That's strange. Because in the recruiting thread, the last post contains a quote from a 2019 recruit on the quality of our facilities and how it impacted his opinion of his Georgetown recruiting trip. If there is no difference, I am sure you will be able to find me a similar quote from 2003. I would sign up tomorrow for a coach who would give us a 14 year run that we have had under JT3. I have been on the Board for 20 years and There are posters (guru) who have literally been calling for the firing or resignation of whoever is coaching the program for 15 of the 20 years. I think Big Dog's post in this thread which was one of the first threads on the "new board" , captures my feelings, and is why I don't have my pitchfork out. I think JT3 hire exceeded the expectations of many whoses only wish was to stabilize a program in a free fall.

[madgesiq92]

Mar 6, 2017 6:58:57 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Mar 6, 2017 5:50:37 GMT -5 madgesiq92 said:

There is a lot of delusion on this board about the state of the program that JT3 took over, a program in the proverbial toilet that many wanted just to see "be competitive again"". If JT3 were to leave tomorrow, next year, or in 2020, he will have left the program in far better position than he took over. The program hadn't won a Big East title since 1989 and been in a Final Four since 1985 when he took over. He took over a program where Harvey Thomas was the prized recruit, Drew Hall was taking 30 footers with 5 seconds left in tie games, 6 men were occasionally on the court, the AD was telling alumni that the NCAA tournament was an unreasonable expectation, and an NIT banner was hung over the urinals by a coach who was threatening with one fist to be here for 30 more years.

www.weeklystandard.com/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-hoya-nation/article/3526

No delusion. The team sucked then, the team sucks now. The only difference is the lack of a quote or incident from one of the Thompsons similar to Esh's 30-year quote. Now, if the Tyler Crawford bullying threat is somehow connected to JT2 (I'm not saying that it is), then that could be it. From lurking at Casual, I read that Hadar felt threatened, had a group of friends with him, and is insulted by the program and the University. Somehow I don't think this is going away quietly as everyone around the Thompsons would like.

Hadar is an entitled snowflake who deserved what he got. This is not a Blake Esherick moment.

[prhoya]

Mar 6, 2017 7:18:10 GMT -5 madgesiq92 said:

Mar 6, 2017 6:58:57 GMT -5 prhoya said:

No delusion. The team sucked then, the team sucks now. The only difference is the lack of a quote from one of the Thompsons similar to Esh's 30-year quote.

That's strange. Because in the recruiting thread, the last post contains a quote from a 2019 recruit on the quality of our facilities and how it impacted his opinion of his Georgetown recruiting trip. If there is no difference, I am sure you will be able to find me a similar quote from 2003. I would sign up tomorrow for a coach who would give us a 14 year run that we have had under JT3. I have been on the Board for 20 years and There are posters (guru) who have literally been calling for the firing or resignation of whoever is coaching the program for 15 of the 20 years. I think Big Dog's post in this thread which was one of the first threads on the "new board" , captures my feelings, and is why I don't have my pitchfork out. I think JT3 hire exceeded the expectations of many whoses only wish was to stabilize a program in a free fall.

Esh had the recruits who were the backbone of the Final Four run coming in that August. The old facilities did not matter to them.
Let me ask you: Would you like a change? Do you think the program is in a free fall?

[hoyatables]

Mar 6, 2017 7:37:06 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Mar 6, 2017 7:18:10 GMT -5 madgesiq92 said:

That's strange. Because in the recruiting thread, the last post contains a quote from a 2019 recruit on the quality of our facilities and how it impacted his opinion of his Georgetown recruiting trip. If there is no difference, I am sure you will be able to find me a similar quote from 2003. I would sign up tomorrow for a coach who would give us a 14 year run that we have had under JT3. I have been on the Board for 20 years and There are posters (guru) who have literally been calling for the firing or resignation of whoever is coaching the program for 15 of the 20 years. I think Big Dog's post in this thread which was one of the first threads on the "new board" , captures my feelings, and is why I don't have my pitchfork out. I think JT3 hire exceeded the expectations of many whoses only wish was to stabilize a program in a free fall.

Esh had the recruits who were the backbone of the Final Four run coming in that August. The old facilities did not matter to them.
Let me ask you: Would you like a change? Do you think the program is in a free fall?

One can be concerned or think that a change is warranted without necessarily thinking that the program is in "free fall" or insulting and degrading a man.

And yes, the program was in free fall in 2004. The program now would be a very attractive plum for any coach, should one want to take it and should it be offered. Brand new facility, competitive power conference, and excellent tradition.

[prhoya]

Mar 6, 2017 7:30:47 GMT -5 madgesiq92 said:

Mar 6, 2017 6:58:57 GMT -5 prhoya said:

No delusion. The team sucked then, the team sucks now. The only difference is the lack of a quote or incident from one of the Thompsons similar to Esh's 30-year quote. Now, if the Tyler Crawford bullying threat is somehow connected to JT2 (I'm not saying that it is), then that could be it. From lurking at Casual, I read that Hadar felt threatened, had a group of friends with him, and is insulted by the program and the University. Somehow I don't think this is going away quietly as everyone around the Thompsons would like.

Hadar is an entitled snowflake who deserved what he got. This is not a Blake Esherick moment.

Are you one of the Thompsons or one of their thugs/bullies? No one deserved what he got, esp. someone as dedicated to the basketball program as him, student fans which now are in short supply. We're trying to get students back to the game and this is what happens? Bullied by a 6'4" 30 year old with a track record?
We'll see what happens.

[madgesiq92]

Mar 6, 2017 7:37:06 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Mar 6, 2017 7:18:10 GMT -5 madgesiq92 said:

That's strange. Because in the recruiting thread, the last post contains a quote from a 2019 recruit on the quality of our facilities and how it impacted his opinion of his Georgetown recruiting trip. If there is no difference, I am sure you will be able to find me a similar quote from 2003. I would sign up tomorrow for a coach who would give us a 14 year run that we have had under JT3. I have been on the Board for 20 years and There are posters (guru) who have literally been calling for the firing or resignation of whoever is coaching the program for 15 of the 20 years. I think Big Dog's post in this thread which was one of the first threads on the "new board" , captures my feelings, and is why I don't have my pitchfork out. I think JT3 hire exceeded the expectations of many whoses only wish was to stabilize a program in a free fall.

Esh had the recruits who were the backbone of the Final Four run coming in that August. The old facilities did not matter to them.
Let me ask you: Would you like a change? Do you think the program is in a free fall?

1. It may be time for a change, and I think, if it is, JT3 cares enough about the program to make that decision.

2. I do not think the program is in a free fall. I don't see any similarities to the end of the Esherick era.

3. Since you are a "lurker" at Casual Hoya, you likely read the comprehensive article last week about the JT3 situation which, in part, stated that anyone who tried to minimized JT3s Final Four appearance by giving credit to Esherick "should be punched in the face" Tyler Crawford style.

4. I am under no delusion that if a change is made, the usual suspects will be calling for the firing or resignation of that coach within 2-3 years.

5. The public support and loyalty shown by Roy Hibbert, Tyler Crawford and others is more meaningful to me than anonymous former players and alumni/fans hiding behind screen names.

[AltoSaxa]

When alumni do not renew their season ticket and other ticket plans Georgetown will have our names. No hiding then.

[prhoya]

Mar 6, 2017 8:06:19 GMT -5 madgesiq92 said:

Mar 6, 2017 7:37:06 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Esh had the recruits who were the backbone of the Final Four run coming in that August. The old facilities did not matter to them.
Let me ask you: Would you like a change? Do you think the program is in a free fall?

1. It may be time for a change, and I think, if it is, JT3 cares enough about the program to make that decision.

2. I do not think the program is in a free fall. I don't see any similarities to the end of the Esherick era.

3. Since you are a "lurker" at Casual Hoya, you likely read the comprehensive article last week about the JT3 situation which, in part, stated that anyone who tried to minimized JT3s Final Four appearance by giving credit to Esherick "should be punched in the face" Tyler Crawford style.

4. I am under no delusion that if a change is made, the usual suspects will be calling for the firing or resignation of that coach within 2-3 years.

5. The public support and loyalty shown by Roy Hibbert, Tyler Crawford and others is more meaningful to me than anonymous former players and alumni/fans hiding behind screen names.

1. Agree.
2. Agree to disagree.
3. Funny. Threatening someone from behind a keyboard... Lol!
4. Agree to disagree. This is GU, where change happens very slowly.
5. Wrong. We are all Hoya fans.

[madgesiq92]

Mar 6, 2017 8:18:10 GMT -5 prhoya said:

Mar 6, 2017 8:06:19 GMT -5 madgesiq92 said:

1. It may be time for a change, and I think, if it is, JT3 cares enough about the program to make that decision.

2. I do not think the program is in a free fall. I don't see any similarities to the end of the Esherick era.

3. Since you are a "lurker" at Casual Hoya, you likely read the comprehensive article last week about the JT3 situation which, in part, stated that anyone who tried to minimized JT3s Final Four appearance by giving credit to Esherick "should be punched in the face" Tyler Crawford style.

4. I am under no delusion that if a change is made, the usual suspects will be calling for the firing or resignation of that coach within 2-3 years.

5. The public support and loyalty shown by Roy Hibbert, Tyler Crawford and others is more meaningful to me than anonymous former players and alumni/fans hiding behind screen names.

1. Agree.
2. Agree to disagree.
3. Funny. Threatening someone from behind a keyboard... Lol!
4. Agree to disagree. This is GU, where change happens very slowly.
5. Wrong. We are all Hoya fans.

Re #3.  I was paraphrasing this excerpt, not threatening anyone! 

“Even when JTIII was successful, he was using Esherick’s recruits.”

Verdict: Pure applesauce.

I’ll give a high five to anyone who thinks Craig Esherick would have taken those same players to a Sweet Sixteen and Final Four in back to back seasons. And then I’ll punch that person in the face.

Jeff Green was born to play in JTIII’s system. Jeff Green became a lottery pick because of JTIII’s system. And Roy Hibbert went from a guy who couldn’t even run up and down the court to a dude who became a first round draft pick and a defensive stalwart. I’m done with this."

Re #5. Jeff Goodman's article may have resonated with me if he had not only used anonymous sources.  Jon Wallace and PE Jr. sitting next to III and Hibbert's reaction are more meaningful to me than quotes from anonymous former players.

[JohnnyJones]

Whatever happened to Big Dog?

[bigskyhoya]

I don't think we need to go back more than a decade to characterize, one way or the other, the coach's level of success at that time. And I don't think we need to quibble about whether the program is in "free fall", which in my view is not the test for whether a coach should stay or go. We only need to evaluate his recent and current performance to conclude it is not nearly good enough. Each year in which we underperform as we have will make it that much more difficult to resurrect our brand.

[madgesiq92]

Mar 6, 2017 8:57:34 GMT -5 bigskyhoya said:

I don't think we need to go back more than a decade to characterize, one way or the other, the coach's level of success at that time. And I don't think we need to quibble about whether the program is in "free fall", which in my view is not the test for whether a coach should stay or go. We only need to evaluate his recent and current performance to conclude it is not nearly good enough. Each year in which we underperform as we have will make it that much more difficult to resurrect our brand.

I think it disingenuous to ignore the program that JT3 inherited more than a decade ago as a measuring stick if you are in the same post discussing the resurrection of a "brand" which was created over a 10 year run (79-80 through 88-89) that was almost 4 decades ago.  Our program was not born with Kansas pedigree---James Naismith on the sidelines with Adolph Rupp and Phogg Allen as his assistants.

It is as likely that the end of the Thompson era that many are calling for leads to a program that returns to the pre-Thompson era, as the program recapturing the 10 year magic of the 1980s again.  

[bigskyhoya]

I am not ignoring it. I am saying that it does not immunize the coach a decade later.

[hoyalove4ever]

The damage to the brand was done a LONG time ago. That is not an issue at this point.