KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Mar 6, 2017 9:28:20 GMT -5
The damage to the brand was done a LONG time ago. That is not an issue at this point. How can you say that? Damage to the brand is happening right now.
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Post by practice on Mar 6, 2017 9:29:53 GMT -5
The damage to the brand was done a LONG time ago. That is not an issue at this point. Let's try to focus on rebuilding the brand. To think that there cannot be a new era of successful Hoya basketball is so defeatist. Yes, JT2 got tired and handed the program off to Esherick instead entering into a real search for a new coach. Yes, Esherick failed (sorry) at rebuilding a stale program and was fired and -- again -- there really was no national search but JT3. Let's not rehash it but the JT3 era started great but eventually petered out. Why can't Georgetown -- like it did 45 years ago -- get bold and start a new era? Think of how crazy it was when Georgetown selected JT2 as HC -- a local high black high school coach with strong ties to the community after nearly a century of white establishment coaches. I'd like to see a complete break with the past -- and that includes many of the retread potential coaching names bandied about on this site and others -- and a new bold direction. Is there a local coach who can help G-Town lock down the DMV recruiting scene? (Why did Broadus blow his chance!) The brand can be rebuilt and reestablished. There is still some serious cachet to the Georgetown name in popular culture. If the team becomes badass again very quickly we'll see musicians and the entertainment industry use Hoyas as shorthand for toughness, trailblazing, African-American pride, and hopefully championships.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Mar 6, 2017 9:33:33 GMT -5
What damage would that be? We are not elite program any more. That happened years ago. That we have had two straight losing seasons? How does that damage the brand when we have not been some feared program for at least twenty years? What supposed brand damage is happening now?
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Mar 6, 2017 9:37:55 GMT -5
What damage would that be? We are not elite program any more. That happened years ago. That we have had two straight losing seasons? How does that damage the brand when we have not been some feared program for at least twenty years? What supposed brand damage is happening now? So JTIII did nothing to rebuild the brand? That Final Four was meaningless? I don't get it
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Mar 6, 2017 9:40:10 GMT -5
I do not think that the Final Four was meaningless, but I certainly never felt it made GU an elite program in the college basketball world. As of 2007, how did you perceive the Hoya brand? Seriously, I respect your input and would like to hear how others see the Hoya basketball "brand."
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 6, 2017 9:43:56 GMT -5
No delusion. The team sucked then, the team sucks now. The only difference is the lack of a quote or incident from one of the Thompsons similar to Esh's 30-year quote. Now, if the Tyler Crawford bullying threat is somehow connected to JT2 (I'm not saying that it is), then that could be it. From lurking at Casual, I read that Hadar felt threatened, had a group of friends with him, and is insulted by the program and the University. Somehow I don't think this is going away quietly as everyone around the Thompsons would like. Hadar is an entitled snowflake who deserved what he got. This is not a Blake Esherick moment. Hey! Good to see the story is now a talking point for the Fox News/Alex Jones crowd.
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TC
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Post by TC on Mar 6, 2017 9:48:04 GMT -5
I guess this reaction is spurred by the article in today's Hartford Courant that I posted on the media coverage thread, but I really don't buy the "he's always going to be compared to his dad, and when he doesn't achieve immediately what his dad did, people will be upset" line of thinking. I don't know about the others around here, but I for one am SO STARVED for even MODEST success that its not going to take a great deal for me to feel like this was a good hire. The "success" benchmark laid out by the anti-JT3 faction has been pretty much Sweet 16 or it's a failure, regular season success be damned. That's not "modest" success.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 6, 2017 10:00:32 GMT -5
There is still some serious cachet to the Georgetown name in popular culture. If the team becomes badass again very quickly we'll see musicians and the entertainment industry use Hoyas as shorthand for toughness, trailblazing, African-American pride, and hopefully championships. This was true in the 1980s and into the 1990s. But this type of cachet left a long time ago, and I don't think it will ever come back. Georgetown gained prominence culturally largely because JT Jr was a trailblazing African American coach - and a hugely successful one at that - in an era where that wasn't a common thing. That's just not the type of situation that exists anymore. We aren't going to regain that level of cultural impact and that's true regardless of who the coach is.
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Post by practice on Mar 6, 2017 10:04:37 GMT -5
There is still some serious cachet to the Georgetown name in popular culture. If the team becomes badass again very quickly we'll see musicians and the entertainment industry use Hoyas as shorthand for toughness, trailblazing, African-American pride, and hopefully championships. This was true in the 1980s and into the 1990s. But this type of cachet left a long time ago, and I don't think it will ever come back. Georgetown gained prominence culturally largely because JT Jr was a trailblazing African American coach - and a hugely successful one at that - in an era where that wasn't a common thing. That's just not the type of situation that exists anymore. We aren't going to regain that level of cultural impact and that's true regardless of who the coach is. In that case, you've convinced me ... let's just settle with mediocrity and the status quo.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 6, 2017 10:06:36 GMT -5
This was true in the 1980s and into the 1990s. But this type of cachet left a long time ago, and I don't think it will ever come back. Georgetown gained prominence culturally largely because JT Jr was a trailblazing African American coach - and a hugely successful one at that - in an era where that wasn't a common thing. That's just not the type of situation that exists anymore. We aren't going to regain that level of cultural impact and that's true regardless of who the coach is. In that case, you've convinced me ... let's just settle with mediocrity and the status quo. No. I think we can be a better basketball team than we've been the last few seasons. I just think your expectations of Georgetown permeating pop culture are unrealistic.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Mar 6, 2017 12:28:19 GMT -5
I do not think that the Final Four was meaningless, but I certainly never felt it made GU an elite program in the college basketball world. As of 2007, how did you perceive the Hoya brand? Seriously, I respect your input and would like to hear how others see the Hoya basketball "brand." I was feeling pretty damn good about the Hoya brand at halftime of the Davidson game. Maybe even elite.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 6, 2017 12:52:37 GMT -5
The 1980s brand is never, ever coming back. That's not being defeatist -- it was the result of not only winning, but cultural elements and the rise of ESPN.
In a landscape with many successful African-American coaches and a massive number of media outlets and the regionalizing of sports ... it's never going to happen again. Even if we win as much as we did in the early to mid-80s.
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McBricks
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Post by McBricks on Mar 6, 2017 14:08:56 GMT -5
The 1980s brand is never, ever coming back. That's not being defeatist -- it was the result of not only winning, but cultural elements and the rise of ESPN. In a landscape with many successful African-American coaches and a massive number of media outlets and the regionalizing of sports ... it's never going to happen again. Even if we win as much as we did in the early to mid-80s. I'd argue that no current college basketball team has what we had (and other programs) back in the 80s. Sure, Duke, Kentucky, UNC, Kansas, etc. have huge followings and fan support. But they aren't "culturally" relevant outside of basketball. SFHoya99 is right - Georgetown was a cultural phenomenon in the 80s/90s and had much to do with both winning and what our program meant to people all over the country that had no rooting interest in Georgetown as a school.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Mar 6, 2017 14:52:07 GMT -5
I have said it before and I will say it again. Gtown still has a following with older African-Americans, in the south. The main issue is that the Hoyas have not done anything significant when the most eye balls are watching since 2007. The brand is still there but the team has to win again in the NCAA's. A couple of years ago maybe 4 at most, Bow Wow (from the ATL) was wearing a Georgetown basketball slogan shirt on 106 & Park on BET; Free publicity for the basketball program.
But if you are not winning, no one is going to rock your brand especially if the brand is associated with perennial losing.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 6, 2017 16:31:43 GMT -5
I have said it before and I will say it again. Gtown still has a following with older African-Americans, in the south. The main issue is that the Hoyas have not done anything significant when the most eye balls are watching since 2007. The brand is still there but the team has to win again in the NCAA's. A couple of years ago maybe 4 at most, Bow Wow (from the ATL) was wearing a Georgetown basketball slogan shirt on 106 & Park on BET; Free publicity for the basketball program. But if you are not winning, no one is going to rock your brand especially if the brand is associated with perennial losing. If maintaining the tie to the all-African-American makeup of the great JT Jr teams, and most of the JT3 teams, is very important to you, I think you should root for this coach to be retained. A different direction for the program would likely make our teams end up resembling most of the other college basketball teams these days, almost none of which are entirely African-American. I don't know if bringing that up is touching the third rail, personally I'd be fine if the new coach maintained the roster makeup of the Thompson eras. But I think a coach from outside the Thompson coaching tree would probably be more inclined to go a different way.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Mar 6, 2017 17:19:09 GMT -5
I have said it before and I will say it again. Gtown still has a following with older African-Americans, in the south. The main issue is that the Hoyas have not done anything significant when the most eye balls are watching since 2007. The brand is still there but the team has to win again in the NCAA's. A couple of years ago maybe 4 at most, Bow Wow (from the ATL) was wearing a Georgetown basketball slogan shirt on 106 & Park on BET; Free publicity for the basketball program. But if you are not winning, no one is going to rock your brand especially if the brand is associated with perennial losing. You are correct that African-Americans not only in the south but across the country still remember the exploits of the Hoyas. JTII was and stil is viewed by many as being the face of Georgetown basketball. He was and still is loved by many despite his faults because he was an African-American in a very public arena, big time college basketball, who demanded that he and his team be treated with respect by the fellow institutions, the referees and the media that covered big time college basketball. For this many did not like this candid speaking Afican-American. He did not ask for nor did he give any quarters on the basketball court, but did not take it beyond the court. That reputation of being a team that would play with the tenacity of a child trying to make sure his father would respect his efforts is what III has allowed to wither away. JTII was not loved by all who played for him, but those who played the hardest and who won BE championships and a NCAA TITLE would run through a brick wall for him. The irony is that JT II never told them to do it for him or the university that was on their jersey but for themselves, for any endeavor worth doing is worth doing well. With the last two seasons going south, I have heard many a commentator remark about the old time Georgetown basketball. The chip on the shoulder, us against the world, fight for every loose ball on the floor like it was a fresh cooked Chris steakhouse steak Hoyas and how it was badge of honor to play them and still be able to walk because you knew you were going to be in a war for forty minutes. I just don't see that attitude in the present team. I am sure that each member of the team respects and wants to play for JTIII, but it has to be more than that. The players have to want their effort on the court to reflect who you are as a coach and a man and how much you as a coach and mentor means to them. JTIII I think is a good coach and most importantly a good man. He just happens to be the son of a basketball legend. Legendary man with some faults, but who made no apologies for those faults and who made great players play to their greatness and made ordinary players do extraordinary things. How many of us old timers ever thought that Charles Smith would be an All BE guard and would be drafted into the NBA. I can't say what that "IT" was that made JTIII's team play with the ferocity that they did, but I sincerely hope III finds it and channels it to his team next year.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Mar 6, 2017 17:58:57 GMT -5
I have said it before and I will say it again. Gtown still has a following with older African-Americans, in the south. The main issue is that the Hoyas have not done anything significant when the most eye balls are watching since 2007. The brand is still there but the team has to win again in the NCAA's. A couple of years ago maybe 4 at most, Bow Wow (from the ATL) was wearing a Georgetown basketball slogan shirt on 106 & Park on BET; Free publicity for the basketball program. But if you are not winning, no one is going to rock your brand especially if the brand is associated with perennial losing. If maintaining the tie to the all-African-American makeup of the great JT Jr teams, and most of the JT3 teams, is very important to you, I think you should root for this coach to be retained. A different direction for the program would likely make our teams end up resembling most of the other college basketball teams these days, almost none of which are entirely African-American. I don't know if bringing that up is touching the third rail, personally I'd be fine if the new coach maintained the roster makeup of the Thompson eras. But I think a coach from outside the Thompson coaching tree would probably be more inclined to go a different way. About now, people want to see a winner on the court in March at bare minimum the 2005/2006 season. People started losing faith in III in 2010 and everything from that point has been confirming that any NCAA success is not going to happen with him at the helm. There are moments in life you wish you can share with your children. A lot of my friends have children that have never seen the Hoyas win consecutive games in the post-season. People/I wish JTIII could do it, but it is now going to be over a 10 year drought since even sniffing the Sweet 16's As a lot of my circle look at it, yea JTIII can be the coach, but what is there to admire/brag about the program when it shrinks when the lights are brightest. The Thompson's have been good for the program, but the fans I know are more loyal to the program and want a see a winner no matter what the race They want something to brag about again. People will support the brother, but now on the outside it starts to look like he is keeping the job cause of his dad and no longer his merits.
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bamahoya11
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Post by bamahoya11 on Mar 6, 2017 18:44:44 GMT -5
The Georgetown phenomenon of the 1980s was a rare moment in sports in which transformational progress met incredible success. Georgetown reached such a height due to a remarkable confluence of factors, including: one of the first major African-American coaches, an incredible mass of playing talent that amounted to some of the best and most memorable players in college basketball history, championship-level success on the court, and an aggressive style of play that attracted both fans and detractors. It was a unique constellation of events that we shouldn't even try to replicate. Georgetown does still draw benefits from this experience (fans of a certain age remember the Hoyas, some recruits may be attracted to the tradition, etc.), it will not be able to reproduce on demand that level of success. I agree with the posters above who have said that no college basketball program today has the cultural relevance that Georgetown's basketball program had in the 1980s.
Indeed, I would suggest that we should cherish this tradition while working to build a championship program now in a different era. It's certainly doable. Villanova's recent dominance proves it. Indeed, Butler's runs to the championship game and Gonzaga's sustained success shows that schools outside the traditional football footprint can thrive consistently in college basketball. So, to me the thoughts in this thread can be harmonized. Georgetown was an incredible culture force in the 1980s that cannot be reproduced today. With the right leadership, Georgetown can be a force in college basketball and contend routinely at the highest level of play today.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Mar 6, 2017 20:49:17 GMT -5
The Georgetown phenomenon of the 1980s was a rare moment in sports in which transformational progress met incredible success. Georgetown reached such a height due to a remarkable confluence of factors, including: one of the first major African-American coaches, an incredible mass of playing talent that amounted to some of the best and most memorable players in college basketball history, championship-level success on the court, and an aggressive style of play that attracted both fans and detractors. It was a unique constellation of events that we shouldn't even try to replicate. Georgetown does still draw benefits from this experience (fans of a certain age remember the Hoyas, some recruits may be attracted to the tradition, etc.), it will not be able to reproduce on demand that level of success. I agree with the posters above who have said that no college basketball program today has the cultural relevance that Georgetown's basketball program had in the 1980s. Indeed, I would suggest that we should cherish this tradition while working to build a championship program now in a different era. It's certainly doable. Villanova's recent dominance proves it. Indeed, Butler's runs to the championship game and Gonzaga's sustained success shows that schools outside the traditional football footprint can thrive consistently in college basketball. So, to me the thoughts in this thread can be harmonized. Georgetown was an incredible culture force in the 1980s that cannot be reproduced today. With the right leadership, Georgetown can be a force in college basketball and contend routinely at the highest level of play today. Sadly, it doesn't appear that the current leadership is the right leadership. I don't expect III to be going anywhere, but 5-13 in the Big East is disgraceful. That's Joey Meyer territory. I don't see how anyone can dispute that. There's no question that III has accomplished far more than Esherick, but at this point we don't seem that far away from the depths of the Esh error.
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eagle54
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Post by eagle54 on Mar 6, 2017 20:55:08 GMT -5
The Georgetown phenomenon of the 1980s was a rare moment in sports in which transformational progress met incredible success. Georgetown reached such a height due to a remarkable confluence of factors, including: one of the first major African-American coaches, an incredible mass of playing talent that amounted to some of the best and most memorable players in college basketball history, championship-level success on the court, and an aggressive style of play that attracted both fans and detractors. It was a unique constellation of events that we shouldn't even try to replicate. Georgetown does still draw benefits from this experience (fans of a certain age remember the Hoyas, some recruits may be attracted to the tradition, etc.), it will not be able to reproduce on demand that level of success. I agree with the posters above who have said that no college basketball program today has the cultural relevance that Georgetown's basketball program had in the 1980s. Indeed, I would suggest that we should cherish this tradition while working to build a championship program now in a different era. It's certainly doable. Villanova's recent dominance proves it. Indeed, Butler's runs to the championship game and Gonzaga's sustained success shows that schools outside the traditional football footprint can thrive consistently in college basketball. So, to me the thoughts in this thread can be harmonized. Georgetown was an incredible culture force in the 1980s that cannot be reproduced today. With the right leadership, Georgetown can be a force in college basketball and contend routinely at the highest level of play today. Sadly, it doesn't appear that the current leadership is the right leadership. I don't expect III to be going anywhere, but 5-13 in the Big East is disgraceful. That's Joey Meyer territory. I don't see how anyone can dispute that. There's no question that III has accomplished far more than Esherick, but at this point we don't seem that far away from the depths of the Esh error. That's in a watered down league from what we once were. Seems that other schools have taken advantage of this new conference situation and as usual the Thompson's are not hungry to get ahead and think it will just come to them. Entitled because of the early 80's. Iverson was a gift for JTII or would have had a much different last decade as those 90's teams were really bad minus the two years he had a gift fall in his lap. Getting outworked in recruiting, system, culture, etc. currently. Very sad.
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