HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Nov 20, 2023 6:46:53 GMT -5
Great comeback win. The guys could have mailed it in down 10 with 4 1/2 left. Any win is a positive for this team. Lots of things to clean up obviously before the TCU/SU/ND games.
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joey0403p
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Post by joey0403p on Nov 20, 2023 6:52:10 GMT -5
Super happy with the W…I hope we do learn and get better. Back to back, rebounding, being physical etc etc
I was screaming at the tv that we weren’t breaking the press to try and score - think we did once where Epps hit Rosen in stride and he went in for layup, but that was it. Why would any coach not press us though. We don’t make anyone pay…
I know what everyone says about our talent - but I feel like if we cut down on TO - we take this one by 10+. If we reduce TO - we might be able to get to 6 / 7 conference wins…if not
Oh boy
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Nov 20, 2023 8:44:10 GMT -5
I don’t think it can be overstated that this team facing adversity and finding a way to win is good news in terms of progressing their development.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 20, 2023 8:50:20 GMT -5
The press issues seemed to return when Braumbagh came back in. When Brumbaugh and Epps are both in the game, they both seem to fall apart against the press. But when It’s Bacote, Bristol and Epps then the press issues somehow disappear Brumbaugh sealed the game against the press. I don't know what to make of any of that game - the stats say that Epps and Bacote were a nightmare defensively - 153.6 DRTG for both of them, no stops, no steals, no rebounds - and yet that unit on the floor during the last six minutes played the best defense I've seen yet from this team. Bacote's missed box out on the free throw could have cost the game, and yet he did seem to be a really calming presence. Other than Styles and Bristol, everyone on this team seems inconsistent so far - mental lapses, lapses in effort - and yet you see glimpses of what every one of them could be.
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thedragon
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Post by thedragon on Nov 20, 2023 10:46:20 GMT -5
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 20, 2023 11:27:11 GMT -5
The press issues seemed to return when Braumbagh came back in. When Brumbaugh and Epps are both in the game, they both seem to fall apart against the press. But when It’s Bacote, Bristol and Epps then the press issues somehow disappear Brumbaugh sealed the game against the press. I don't know what to make of any of that game - the stats say that Epps and Bacote were a nightmare defensively - 153.6 DRTG for both of them, no stops, no steals, no rebounds - and yet that unit on the floor during the last six minutes played the best defense I've seen yet from this team. Bacote's missed box out on the free throw could have cost the game, and yet he did seem to be a really calming presence. Other than Styles and Bristol, everyone on this team seems inconsistent so far - mental lapses, lapses in effort - and yet you see glimpses of what every one of them could be. That end defense wasn't good because of the fouling. The last possession that we stopped them (except the very end) was at 3:15. Then layup, foul (2FT), foul (2FT), foul (4 pt play with foul), foul (made 1 of 2). That's 11 points in 5 possessions; that's pretty awful. Now, I would definitely question a couple of the fouls. But the numbers are going to be terrible. Right before that we did get a couple of turnovers forced, which helped us get back into it. But American's last missed shot where we didn't foul was at 7:22.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 20, 2023 12:00:17 GMT -5
I am not sure where this site is getting its stats from. According to a pay-site, the lineup in last night at the end in OT has had a D rating of 102.9 this season. While that's not great, it's much better than some of our more frequently used lineups. Aside from too many fouls and Bacote's botched rebound, our defense in overtime was actually quite excellent, in that American only made one FG. The reason why the defensive numbers look bad is because of all the made free throws. Of course, that's the "fault" of the defense, but it's very different than allowing open shots. This is a breakdown of American's shots in OT: - Made jumper in the paint - Made FT - Made FT - Made FT - Made FT - Miss FT - Made FT - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot EDIT: I see SFHoya99 basically said the same thing as I was writing this, and I agree. The fouls are bad, and part of defense, so they need to be controlled. But, that's something you can fix. The fact that we stopped so many threes was very positive.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 20, 2023 12:08:58 GMT -5
I am not sure where this site is getting its stats from. According to a pay-site, the lineup in last night at the end in OT has had a D rating of 102.9 this season. While that's not great, it's much better than some of our more frequently used lineups. Aside from too many fouls and Bacote's botched rebound, our defense in overtime was actually quite excellent, in that American only made one FG. The reason why the defensive numbers look bad is because of all the made free throws. Of course, that's the "fault" of the defense, but it's very different than allowing open shots. This is a breakdown of American's shots in OT: - Made jumper in the paint - Made FT - Made FT - Made FT - Made FT - Miss FT - Made FT - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot EDIT: I see SFHoya99 basically said the same thing as I was writing this, and I agree. The fouls are bad, and part of defense, so they need to be controlled. But, that's something you can fix. The fact that we stopped so many threes was very positive. The defense is really going to be interesting this year. From the looks of it, despite our fouling yesterday, the defense seems to be built around an idea of basically stopping easy 3s, being okay with one on one defense in the post / on drives, and trying to be okay on the rebounding through effort. Switching everything really creates some issues on the last two points, but it's what stops the first thing. We're just so weak in the middle that I think the rebounding angle is really a killer, even more than the post up component. I like that we aren't helping or collapsing nearly as much (though we did at a couple of key times late) and what that does for our 3pt defense. But we're going to give up a lot at the rim, because we have very little rim protection and when Cook goes for the contest/block, which he does too much, we lose all ability to grab a defensive board. We're going to have to pick our poison on defense this year, and I suspect that is the choice for most games (no 3s, no FTs, but we give up lots in the paint because of it) until we get more size. We'll try to make it up with effort, but that won't always work.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 20, 2023 12:54:14 GMT -5
I am not sure where this site is getting its stats from. According to a pay-site, the lineup in last night at the end in OT has had a D rating of 102.9 this season. While that's not great, it's much better than some of our more frequently used lineups. Aside from too many fouls and Bacote's botched rebound, our defense in overtime was actually quite excellent, in that American only made one FG. The reason why the defensive numbers look bad is because of all the made free throws. Of course, that's the "fault" of the defense, but it's very different than allowing open shots. This is a breakdown of American's shots in OT: - Made jumper in the paint - Made FT - Made FT - Made FT - Made FT - Miss FT - Made FT - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot - Missed 3 point shot EDIT: I see SFHoya99 basically said the same thing as I was writing this, and I agree. The fouls are bad, and part of defense, so they need to be controlled. But, that's something you can fix. The fact that we stopped so many threes was very positive. The defense is really going to be interesting this year. From the looks of it, despite our fouling yesterday, the defense seems to be built around an idea of basically stopping easy 3s, being okay with one on one defense in the post / on drives, and trying to be okay on the rebounding through effort. Switching everything really creates some issues on the last two points, but it's what stops the first thing. We're just so weak in the middle that I think the rebounding angle is really a killer, even more than the post up component. I like that we aren't helping or collapsing nearly as much (though we did at a couple of key times late) and what that does for our 3pt defense. But we're going to give up a lot at the rim, because we have very little rim protection and when Cook goes for the contest/block, which he does too much, we lose all ability to grab a defensive board. We're going to have to pick our poison on defense this year, and I suspect that is the choice for most games (no 3s, no FTs, but we give up lots in the paint because of it) until we get more size. We'll try to make it up with effort, but that won't always work. This is all pretty accurate and shows intent to try to maximize the relative strengths of the current roster while not overly relying on areas of roster weakness and all requiring effort and attention to the plan. Execution has to, and likely will, get better under the current coaching staff (you can already see areas where it has).
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 20, 2023 13:38:52 GMT -5
Brumbaugh sealed the game against the press. I don't know what to make of any of that game - the stats say that Epps and Bacote were a nightmare defensively - 153.6 DRTG for both of them, no stops, no steals, no rebounds - and yet that unit on the floor during the last six minutes played the best defense I've seen yet from this team. Bacote's missed box out on the free throw could have cost the game, and yet he did seem to be a really calming presence. Other than Styles and Bristol, everyone on this team seems inconsistent so far - mental lapses, lapses in effort - and yet you see glimpses of what every one of them could be. That end defense wasn't good because of the fouling. The last possession that we stopped them (except the very end) was at 3:15. Then layup, foul (2FT), foul (2FT), foul (4 pt play with foul), foul (made 1 of 2). That's 11 points in 5 possessions; that's pretty awful. Now, I would definitely question a couple of the fouls. But the numbers are going to be terrible. Right before that we did get a couple of turnovers forced, which helped us get back into it. But American's last missed shot where we didn't foul was at 7:22.You’re not looking at the right numbers. Bristol fouled out one minute into OT I believe. What you have to look at is the defense when we were down 10 pts till the time when Bristol fouled out. To be down 10 and tie it in regulation that means the Bristol -Bacote - Epps/stlyx/cook did get a bunch of stops.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 20, 2023 14:06:53 GMT -5
That end defense wasn't good because of the fouling. The last possession that we stopped them (except the very end) was at 3:15. Then layup, foul (2FT), foul (2FT), foul (4 pt play with foul), foul (made 1 of 2). That's 11 points in 5 possessions; that's pretty awful. Now, I would definitely question a couple of the fouls. But the numbers are going to be terrible. Right before that we did get a couple of turnovers forced, which helped us get back into it. But American's last missed shot where we didn't foul was at 7:22.You’re not looking at the right numbers. Bristol fouled out one minute into OT I believe. What you have to look at is the defense when we were down 10 pts till the time when Bristol fouled out. To be down 10 and tie it in regulation that means the Bristol -Bacote - Epps/stlyx/cook did get a bunch of stops. I'm looking at the end of regulation and yes, my numbers are right. We got back into it because Epps couldn't miss, not because we defended well. We were down 60-49 at 6:19. In the stretch after that, we forced 2 turnovers, one missed shot (end of game), gave up 2 jumpers (1 a 3), 2 layups (including the 4 pt play), and gave up 7 made free throws (of 9 attempted). They scored 16 points on their last 10 possessions.Why'd we win? Because in the same stretch, we made 6 threes plus 3 FTs off a foul on a three, 2 layups, 1 jumper. We didn't have an empty possession thanks to 2 key offensive rebounds. We scored 27 points in that stretch -- 21 off 3s! We scored 27 points off our last 10 possessions. We tied this game up on PURE OFFENSE. Our defense in that stretch was actually statistically poor and maybe a bit better in reality because a couple of the fouls were BS.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 20, 2023 14:43:09 GMT -5
You’re not looking at the right numbers. Bristol fouled out one minute into OT I believe. What you have to look at is the defense when we were down 10 pts till the time when Bristol fouled out. To be down 10 and tie it in regulation that means the Bristol -Bacote - Epps/stlyx/cook did get a bunch of stops. I'm looking at the end of regulation and yes, my numbers are right. We got back into it because Epps couldn't miss, not because we defended well. We were down 60-49 at 6:19. In the stretch after that, we forced 2 turnovers, one missed shot (end of game), gave up 2 jumpers (1 a 3), 2 layups (including the 4 pt play), and gave up 7 made free throws (of 9 attempted). They scored 16 points on their last 10 possessions.Why'd we win? Because in the same stretch, we made 6 threes plus 3 FTs off a foul on a three, 2 layups, 1 jumper. We didn't have an empty possession thanks to 2 key offensive rebounds. We scored 27 points in that stretch -- 21 off 3s! We scored 27 points off our last 10 possessions. We tied this game up on PURE OFFENSE. Our defense in that stretch was actually statistically poor and maybe a bit better in reality because a couple of the fouls were BS. You are, of course, right. Had we not scored 27 points on our last 10 possessions we definitely lose. And at the end of regulation, we did give them a bunch of free throws and gave up some shots. We absolutely did come back based on offense. Our defense did play a role in winning once we did come back, as American missed 5 conseecutive three point shots. If just one of those went in, the result likely would have been different. I really think this year is going to be full of really good moments on both offense and defense, and then also really bad moments (like Holy Cross or the most of regulation yesterday). The hope is that as the season progresses we get more of the really good moments, and less of the really bad ones.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 20, 2023 15:06:38 GMT -5
I don’t think it can be overstated that this team facing adversity and finding a way to win is good news in terms of progressing their development. Absolutely. Fans all across Twitter are laughing and belittling the coach, players and program for their post-game belt celebration. But they don’t get how the bottom for modern Hoya teams have been so deep, that even these small victories can be used as sources for growth. Those smiling faces in the locker rooms do not care about the kenpom ranking of the opponent they just beat; they just care about the victory. A comeback win like that, almost miraculous, can provide momentum and give kids confidence. The guys seem happy for the dudes getting the praise, no one was seen sulking in a corner over not getting minutes or points of their own. The haters out there getting a laugh of how far the Hoyas have fallen don’t grasp that the descent has ended and the climb back up has begun, regardless of what the final record this season will be. The Hoyas already reached their nadir. Now they are putting the pieces back together. Laugh now. Beat them now! Because with the absolute studs who are growing right in front of our eyes and the class coming in next year, this program is in a great position to take flight by this time next year.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 20, 2023 15:17:19 GMT -5
I don’t think it can be overstated that this team facing adversity and finding a way to win is good news in terms of progressing their development. Absolutely. Fans all across Twitter are laughing and belittling the coach, players and program for their post-game belt celebration. It's getting to where I'm more or less done with "fans" as a whole. Were people always such giants dicks and so negative, or is this is a new thing? I don't want to be grumpy old man, but I've rooted for a lot of crappy teams in my life, and nowadays, even in the fanbases where my teams are succeeding, things get nasty quick. I suppose a big part is that people who are dicks are more likely to be loud on social media, but honestly, it's killing a lot of sports for me. Luckily I stay off twitter, but it seeps in everywhere.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 20, 2023 15:28:16 GMT -5
I don’t think it can be overstated that this team facing adversity and finding a way to win is good news in terms of progressing their development. Absolutely. Fans all across Twitter are laughing and belittling the coach, players and program for their post-game belt celebration. Whoah whoah whoah whoah. "Fans" = a bunch of Providence trolls, who are all mad that Ed Cooley's not doing that stuff at Providence any more. There might be a UCONN or a St. John's troll in there somewhere too, but it's 99% Providence. Those people are like hoyaboya, they will find a reason to be negative no matter what happens.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 20, 2023 15:38:22 GMT -5
You’re not looking at the right numbers. Bristol fouled out one minute into OT I believe. What you have to look at is the defense when we were down 10 pts till the time when Bristol fouled out. To be down 10 and tie it in regulation that means the Bristol -Bacote - Epps/stlyx/cook did get a bunch of stops. I'm looking at the end of regulation and yes, my numbers are right. We got back into it because Epps couldn't miss, not because we defended well. We were down 60-49 at 6:19. In the stretch after that, we forced 2 turnovers, one missed shot (end of game), gave up 2 jumpers (1 a 3), 2 layups (including the 4 pt play), and gave up 7 made free throws (of 9 attempted). They scored 16 points on their last 10 possessions.Why'd we win? Because in the same stretch, we made 6 threes plus 3 FTs off a foul on a three, 2 layups, 1 jumper. We didn't have an empty possession thanks to 2 key offensive rebounds. We scored 27 points in that stretch -- 21 off 3s! We scored 27 points off our last 10 possessions. We tied this game up on PURE OFFENSE. Our defense in that stretch was actually statistically poor and maybe a bit better in reality because a couple of the fouls were BS. Your numbers in bold are they the last 10 possessions Bristol was in the game or the last 10 possessions for the Hoyas (including time Bristol was on bench because he fouled out)?
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DudeSlade
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Post by DudeSlade on Nov 20, 2023 17:02:51 GMT -5
I tuned in for the last couple minutes and overtime as I was called into the room. And I agree with all the sentiments about how awesome it is the team fought back and how much that will help long term. Styles sure seems like he's making good on his recruiting ranking going into UNC and love Epps showing out.
But I had a few questions that arose about our returning players:
Why was Bacote in and not Heath? That seems strange for what's been considered a talented scholarshipped 5th year senior vs. a walk on. I know he had the horrific in-bounds vs. Holy Cross, but then why is he starting? Would seem we'd be better off with Fielder out there.
Also what's up with Mutombo? I know he's never developed as we hoped, but it's hard for me to process that he has developed so little as a 4-star 7'2" center that in a team incredibly thin in the frontcourt, we can't use him for even 10 minutes a game. I'd think his size alone against some of these teams would yield positive rebounding & defensive results.
EDIT: Just read back in the thread and found the discussion of Heath rolling an ankle. Sorry. Thanks to those posting.
Also, how do we get Rowan with Phil Handy to work on those handles? He needs to seriously tighten them, but he could be super legit if he can.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Nov 20, 2023 17:05:39 GMT -5
Brumbaugh was a key player! Bristol also came through in the clutch, despite fouling out.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 20, 2023 17:12:16 GMT -5
Why was Bacote in and not Heath? That seems strange for what's been considered a talented scholarshipped 5th year senior vs. a walk on. Heath got hurt in the first half, and it sounded like from the press conference that they wanted to make sure he was healthy given he had missed 5 weeks for another injury. Also it sounds like Bacote is on scholarship.
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biggmanu
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Post by biggmanu on Nov 20, 2023 17:58:37 GMT -5
Man we needed that win. It’s not going to be the best win of the season. But the one that helps to galvanize a group. And gives everyone something to feel good about heading into Thanksgiving week. It also avoids a spiral we could have easily fallen into. One step at a time on our way back
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