prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,271
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Post by prhoya on Dec 14, 2022 23:06:03 GMT -5
The biggest thing I would do is constantly passive press. Just make them take 6-8 seconds off the clock passing sideways while Akok jumps around. You have to defend that much less. Schematically, I'd actually suggest slightly less ball pressure. We get beat off the dribble way too often. Im not talking about PNR. I mean just straight dribble drive. The best way to not have to use help defense principles is to not need help in the first place. They seem to have abandoned the press. They must be reading this board too much. Let’s not forget that the so called arm chair experts on here kept saying the solution to our defense was to full court press. And then this year they are saying we shouldn’t press. Go figure. I bet those so called arm chair experts never imagined that Pat was going to exploit his starters by playing them 38 mpg and not use the bench. Any arm chair expert would reasonably think that you cannot full-court press and play fast offense for 38 mpg, and hope to be fresh at the end of the game. Only delusional Ewing, who lied about playing 48 minutes per game, thinks that's a good strategy.
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Highsmith
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,490
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Post by Highsmith on Dec 15, 2022 8:52:05 GMT -5
They seem to have abandoned the press. They must be reading this board too much. Let’s not forget that the so called arm chair experts on here kept saying the solution to our defense was to full court press. And then this year they are saying we shouldn’t press. Go figure. I bet those so called arm chair experts never imagined that Pat was going to exploit his starters by playing them 38 mpg and not use the bench. Any arm chair expert would reasonably think that you cannot full-court press and play fast offense for 38 mpg, and hope to be fresh at the end of the game. Only delusional Ewing, who lied about playing 48 minutes per game, thinks that's a good strategy. Plus people used to assume that having a coach in Ewing who played on a college team with one of the best presses ever would actually know how to teach his players how to do it properly without giving up dunks and wide open 3's. Tired players plus poor instruction equals abandon the press!
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bigskyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,094
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Post by bigskyhoya on Dec 15, 2022 9:18:28 GMT -5
I bet those so called arm chair experts never imagined that Pat was going to exploit his starters by playing them 38 mpg and not use the bench. Any arm chair expert would reasonably think that you cannot full-court press and play fast offense for 38 mpg, and hope to be fresh at the end of the game. Only delusional Ewing, who lied about playing 48 minutes per game, thinks that's a good strategy. Plus people used to assume that having a coach in Ewing who played on a college team with one of the best presses ever would actually know how to teach his players how to do it properly without giving up dunks and wide open 3's. Tired players plus poor instruction equals abandon the press! Very true. But there is not much sport in swatting away one poster's dogged efforts to defend the indefensible.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 15, 2022 10:13:29 GMT -5
They seem to have abandoned the press. They must be reading this board too much. Let’s not forget that the so called arm chair experts on here kept saying the solution to our defense was to full court press. And then this year they are saying we shouldn’t press. Go figure. I cannot remember many posters who wanted to press, and now don't, but I am sure they exist. I do know a lot of people wanted us to press when Ewing took over, but it's important to keep in mind that while Ewing's teams may have done that in the 1980s, the NBA generally does not, and so I think it was unreasonable to expect Ewing to ever implement such a system. I have long advocated against the press because I think it can only work if it is (a) extremely well coached and (b) you recruit players specifically with it in mind. And even then it can be problematic because breaking the press often leads to open threes now (to be fair, we allow open threes anyway, but I digress), which was not a problem in the 1980s when you had no three point shot. And as others have said, you simply cannot run such a defense with 5-6 guys getting almost all the minutes. Ironically, Rick Pitino is one of the few coaches who in the modern era has been successful with pressure defense, at least when he was at Louisville, but I am not sure if he's continued it at Iona. As I've said before, at this point the problem really isn't the system we are using (not clear what it is, though), but rather the fact that our fundamentals are broken. Guys don't know where to go, we overhelp, etc. Until that's fixed it really doesn't matter what style of defense we use, because it'll be bad regardless. Last year, our defense was ranked 228, this year 239 thus far as of this writing. Our talent is clearly not 239th in the country.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 17, 2022 0:25:37 GMT -5
Against Xavier, we gave up 1.32 points per possession. This would be identical to fouling a 66% FT shooter every time down the Court. It is hard to understate how bad our defense was tonight.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 17, 2022 9:25:16 GMT -5
After professorhoya got me thinking in the game thread, I broke down the defense by half. The first half we gave up 43 points on 38 possessions, and so 1.13 points per possession. Not good, but better than the second half when we gave up a whopping 59 points on 38 possessions, which means we gave up 1.56 points per possession in the second half. That's amazingly horrible. That's the same as fouling a 77% free throw shooter EVERY TIME DOWN THE COURT. It is hard to underestimate how atrocious our defense is. We are not ranked 262 on defense on KenPom. Horrible doesn't even begin to describe it.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 17, 2022 11:21:14 GMT -5
After professorhoya got me thinking in the game thread, I broke down the defense by half. The first half we gave up 43 points on 38 possessions, and so 1.13 points per possession. Not good, but better than the second half when we gave up a whopping 59 points on 38 possessions, which means we gave up 1.56 points per possession in the second half. That's amazingly horrible. That's the same as fouling a 77% free throw shooter EVERY TIME DOWN THE COURT. It is hard to underestimate how atrocious our defense is. We are not ranked 262 on defense on KenPom. Horrible doesn't even begin to describe it. Did you break down the created turnovers? Felt the first half we created a bucket full of turnovers but then none in the 2nd half
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 17, 2022 12:20:05 GMT -5
After professorhoya got me thinking in the game thread, I broke down the defense by half. The first half we gave up 43 points on 38 possessions, and so 1.13 points per possession. Not good, but better than the second half when we gave up a whopping 59 points on 38 possessions, which means we gave up 1.56 points per possession in the second half. That's amazingly horrible. That's the same as fouling a 77% free throw shooter EVERY TIME DOWN THE COURT. It is hard to underestimate how atrocious our defense is. We are not ranked 262 on defense on KenPom. Horrible doesn't even begin to describe it. Did you break down the created turnovers? Felt the first half we created a bucket full of turnovers but then none in the 2nd half Xavier turned it over 3 or 4 times (the play by play is confusing) in the second half, and 11 overall, so they definitely turned it over more in the first half. That's almost certainly in part why our defense wasn't as bad in the first half. Xavier had less opportunities to shoot.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 17, 2022 12:30:24 GMT -5
Did you break down the created turnovers? Felt the first half we created a bucket full of turnovers but then none in the 2nd half Xavier turned it over 3 or 4 times (the play by play is confusing) in the second half, and 11 overall, so they definitely turned it over more in the first half. That's almost certainly in part why our defense wasn't as bad in the first half. Xavier had less opportunities to shoot. Yes but we created those turnovers in the 1st half with our scheme. There were also a couple deflections that bounced or were fumbled to Xavier which could have been even more turnovers in the 1st half.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 17, 2022 12:49:25 GMT -5
Xavier turned it over 3 or 4 times (the play by play is confusing) in the second half, and 11 overall, so they definitely turned it over more in the first half. That's almost certainly in part why our defense wasn't as bad in the first half. Xavier had less opportunities to shoot. Yes but we created those turnovers in the 1st half with our scheme. There were also a couple deflections that bounced or were fumbled to Xavier which could have been even more turnovers in the 1st half. Yes, I don't dispute that we likely caused some of the turnovers. I didn't count how many were "caused" by our defense versus dumb Xavier plays like a bad pass, stepping out of bounds, etc. But, let's assume we did cause all of them. I am not sure of the point? Even with those turnovers, we gave up 1.15 points per possession. That's pretty bad (even if the second half was atrociously bad and much worse). On defense, Georgetown is basically almost exactly average in forcing turnovers - ranked 185 of 363. It's not a strength. To flip it around, what are things we are doing well? Not much, but there are a few things: - We are 32 of 363 in blocks. That's really good. Akok is great, and Wahab is better at getting blocks than people give him credit. Similarly, our offensive shots are not blocked frequently, which is good. - On defense, we do not send our opponents to the line much. In other words, we don't foul a lot. That can be good, but also bad. Good, in the sense we aren't giving opponents tons of free throws. Bad, in the sense that it likely means our defenders are often so far away from the action that we don't even have an opportunity to foul. - On offense, we don't turn it over all that much, though we are very susceptible to steals. But other than steals, we are really good at not turning it over (ranked 2nd overall!). That's really it. Almost everything else we do on both ends is really awful and way worse than the other Big East teams.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 17, 2022 12:59:41 GMT -5
Yes but we created those turnovers in the 1st half with our scheme. There were also a couple deflections that bounced or were fumbled to Xavier which could have been even more turnovers in the 1st half. Yes, I don't dispute that we likely caused some of the turnovers. I didn't count how many were "caused" by our defense versus dumb Xavier plays like a bad pass, stepping out of bounds, etc. But, let's assume we did cause all of them. I am not sure of the point? Even with those turnovers, we gave up 1.15 points per possession. That's pretty bad (even if the second half was atrociously bad and much worse). On defense, Georgetown is basically almost exactly average in forcing turnovers - ranked 185 of 363. It's not a strength. To flip it around, what are things we are doing well? Not much, but there are a few things: - We are 32 of 363 in blocks. That's really good. Akok is great, and Wahab is better at getting blocks than people give him credit. Similarly, our offensive shots are not blocked frequently, which is good. - On defense, we do not send our opponents to the line much. In other words, we don't foul a lot. That can be good, but also bad. Good, in the sense we aren't giving opponents tons of free throws. Bad, in the sense that it likely means our defenders are often so far away from the action that we don't even have an opportunity to foul. - On offense, we don't turn it over all that much, though we are very susceptible to steals. But other than steals, we are really good at not turning it over (ranked 2nd overall!). That's really it. Almost everything else we do on both ends is really awful and way worse than the other Big East teams. But you are discounting the fact that X has a high scoring offense (and horrible defense) so you have to measure the 1st half vs 1st and 2nd halfs of Xs other opponents. 2nd half we were just flat out bad so that’s not in debate.
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Elvado
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,480
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Post by Elvado on Dec 18, 2022 11:05:38 GMT -5
To accurately summarize our defensive strategy requires only three words:
HOPE THEY MISS
We take nothing away and allow teams just about everything they want.
The results scream failure.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,271
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Post by prhoya on Dec 20, 2022 8:17:58 GMT -5
Monty may need his own thread. Is Pat benching Jordan to get back at Monty? Maybe a question for a press conference?
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,351
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Post by calhoya on Dec 20, 2022 9:12:32 GMT -5
This dad needs to step back and take a breath. He loves his kid. Most here would agree that Ewing has seemingly banished the kid to the end of the bench while relying on other players who are tiring and nowhere near the defenders. But the constant assault through social media cannot help the kid. Even if Ewing is not aware and no one else on the staff is aware of these posts, as long as the kid remains a Hoya--hopefully a long time-- the dad needs to ratchet down the comments and not add fuel to the fire.
Having been a lesser version of that dad myself without the social media platform, I can attest that it did not help my kid and probably just made his life more stressful. Ewing has certainly lost legitimacy as the coach for this program. While many of us would like to see the season suddenly turn, I think more recognize that after 5+ years another miracle run is unlikely, particularly from a coach who openly admits that he is no getting through to his team after not getting through to prior teams, as well. The issue now seems to be when and if the Administration cares enough about the fans and the program to pull the plug or whether we remain hostage to a contract that the University cannot afford to terminate. .
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 20, 2022 9:24:12 GMT -5
This dad needs to step back and take a breath. He loves his kid. Most here would agree that Ewing has seemingly banished the kid to the end of the bench while relying on other players who are tiring and nowhere near the defenders. But the constant assault through social media cannot help the kid. Even if Ewing is not aware and no one else on the staff is aware of these posts, as long as the kid remains a Hoya--hopefully a long time-- the dad needs to ratchet down the comments and not add fuel to the fire. Having been a lesser version of that dad myself without the social media platform, I can attest that it did not help my kid and probably just made his life more stressful. Ewing has certainly lost legitimacy as the coach for this program. While many of us would like to see the season suddenly turn, I think more recognize that after 5+ years another miracle run is unlikely, particularly from a coach who openly admits that he is no getting through to his team after not getting through to prior teams, as well. The issue now seems to be when and if the Administration cares enough about the fans and the program to pull the plug or whether we remain hostage to a contract that the University cannot afford to terminate. . I completely agree with you here. I have no doubt that Riley's father has legitimate reasons to be concerned and upset. And I think if most of us here were Riley's father (or mother) we would probably feel the same way. I get it. Heck, many of us come to HoyaTalk on a daily basis and issue strong opinion after strong opinion about the program (I am guilty!), and we don't even have a family member playing for the team! So I can totally understand how difficult it must be. And I know his father is acting in what he thinks is his son's best interest, so it's hard to fault him there. But, as you say, it likely doesn't help the situation. I just think that in this era there is a tendency of parents to get more involved and stay more involved in their kids lives even through college. I admittedly was a sheltered high school kid and benefitted from extremely supportive parents in all aspects. But, for example, when I was in my first semester at Georgetown and struggling with some classes (because they were way harder than high school), I would have never thought of asking my parents to contact the teacher in any way. And if my parents did intervene, I would have been mortified, even if it wasn't on social media! (And for what it's worth, when I was at Georgetown I did have to deal with a difficult bullying-type scenario, handled it myself with some support of close friends at Georgetown, and my parents never knew and still don't know). All that to say, I actually empathize with Jordan in this situation, as it's difficult, and likely one he'd prefer not to be in.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by EtomicB on Dec 20, 2022 11:13:05 GMT -5
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Omega
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by Omega on Dec 20, 2022 12:46:00 GMT -5
They seem to have abandoned the press. They must be reading this board too much. Let’s not forget that the so called arm chair experts on here kept saying the solution to our defense was to full court press. And then this year they are saying we shouldn’t press. Go figure. I bet those so called arm chair experts never imagined that Pat was going to exploit his starters by playing them 38 mpg and not use the bench. Any arm chair expert would reasonably think that you cannot full-court press and play fast offense for 38 mpg, and hope to be fresh at the end of the game. Only delusional Ewing, who lied about playing 48 minutes per game, thinks that's a good strategy. The problem is/was poor early season play which prevented the stretching of the bench. Now in league play, do you really want to put a line up out there for the first time... Coach boxed himself in...
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hoya9797
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,201
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Post by hoya9797 on Dec 20, 2022 13:05:05 GMT -5
I bet those so called arm chair experts never imagined that Pat was going to exploit his starters by playing them 38 mpg and not use the bench. Any arm chair expert would reasonably think that you cannot full-court press and play fast offense for 38 mpg, and hope to be fresh at the end of the game. Only delusional Ewing, who lied about playing 48 minutes per game, thinks that's a good strategy. The problem is/was poor early season play which prevented the stretching of the bench. Now in league play, do you really want to put a line up out there for the first time... Coach boxed himself in... When what he’s doing is a complete failure, why not try something new?
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Post by BeantownHoya on Dec 20, 2022 13:57:47 GMT -5
The problem is/was poor early season play which prevented the stretching of the bench. Now in league play, do you really want to put a line up out there for the first time... Coach boxed himself in... When what he’s doing is a complete failure, why not try something new? Not usually a direction any coach wants to take...but c'mon at this point what do you have to lose...
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 7, 2023 17:27:21 GMT -5
Everyone knows our defense is really bad, but Marquette scored 1.28 points per possession overall, and 1.65 points per possession in the second half (61 points on 37 possessions), the equivalent of letting a Marquette 82.5% shooter take two free throws literally every possession in the second half. It's truly astonishing.
And, if you exclude the 4 possessions at the end of garbage time when Smart put in the walk ons, it would be 1.85. Astonishingly bad. I don't think I have ever seen a half with defense that bad, ever.
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