kbones17
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,186
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Post by kbones17 on Nov 9, 2022 22:45:15 GMT -5
I, like most here, was excited to hear from PE that Coach Nick (really anyone other than PE) was taking the lead on coaching the defense. I was anxiously interested on what we would show in game 1. Needless to say, disappointed to see many of the same issues as before despite the entire 6 player rotation being new. Big issues that I saw yesterday: —Disconnect in preparation if we planned on a very short rotation (6 players) and also planned to run full court pressure most of the game. —Lack of in-game adjustments, primarily in the second half as we gave up 49 points. Coppin State had little trouble breaking press and getting open threes or getting to the hoop and getting fouled. We forced them into almost no long two point attempts, which should be the goal. At one point late (in the last two minutes) we got up 5 or 6 and still were pressing. It’s like we have no awareness sometimes. When B Murray missed both FT’s with ten seconds left we also had rebounders on the key rather than having them back to set the defense. —Still way too much freelancing and over helping and leaving shooters. It’s a broken record in year six, but all you need is get by primary defender, wait for the overhelping and hit the wide open shooter.
On the limited positives, I do think we need the full court pressure in our bag, but also need to vary approaches throughout the game and I think when Wahab is out there we need to go away from it and stay with trapping, and some zone. It’s the first game with new coaches and new players but I was not impressed by what I saw on the defensive side. This is the area I’ll be watching most closely throughout the season. Improving the defense to at least respectable levels is the only way for Us to improve this program from the current depths we find ourselves in.
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kbones17
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,186
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Post by kbones17 on Nov 9, 2022 22:58:20 GMT -5
I, like most here, was excited to hear from PE that Coach Nick (really anyone other than PE) was taking the lead on coaching the defense. I was anxiously interested on what we would show in game 1. Needless to say, disappointed to see many of the same issues as before despite the entire 6 player rotation being new. Big issues that I saw yesterday: —Disconnect in preparation if we planned on a very short rotation (6 players) and also planned to run full court pressure most of the game. —Lack of in-game adjustments, primarily in the second half as we gave up 49 points. Coppin State had little trouble breaking press and getting open threes or getting to the hoop and getting fouled. We forced them into almost no long two point attempts, which should be the goal. At one point late (in the last two minutes) we got up 5 or 6 and still were pressing. It’s like we have no awareness sometimes. When B Murray missed both FT’s with ten seconds left we also had rebounders on the key rather than having them back to set the defense. —Still way too much freelancing and over helping and leaving shooters. It’s a broken record in year six, but all you need is get by primary defender, wait for the overhelping and hit the wide open shooter. On the limited positives, I do think we need the full court pressure in our bag, but also need to vary approaches throughout the game and I think when Wahab is out there we need to go away from it and stay with trapping, and some zone. It’s the first game with new coaches and new players but I was not impressed by what I saw on the defensive side. This is the area I’ll be watching most closely throughout the season. Improving the defense to at least respectable levels is the only way for Us to improve this program from the current depths we find ourselves in. I should also say that I think we have the talent to be at least an average defense. Obviously Akok is impressive, Murray comes with a solid defensive rep, Mozone and Bristol are experienced, Wahab will block some shots and rebound at a high level (if he can stay on the court), Anglin and Bass have potential, etc. No excuses this year. Need to coach them up, install a system and get them to play together.
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 9, 2022 23:13:47 GMT -5
I, like most here, was excited to hear from PE that Coach Nick (really anyone other than PE) was taking the lead on coaching the defense. I was anxiously interested on what we would show in game 1. Needless to say, disappointed to see many of the same issues as before despite the entire 6 player rotation being new. Big issues that I saw yesterday: —Disconnect in preparation if we planned on a very short rotation (6 players) and also planned to run full court pressure most of the game. —Lack of in-game adjustments, primarily in the second half as we gave up 49 points. Coppin State had little trouble breaking press and getting open threes or getting to the hoop and getting fouled. We forced them into almost no long two point attempts, which should be the goal. At one point late (in the last two minutes) we got up 5 or 6 and still were pressing. It’s like we have no awareness sometimes. When B Murray missed both FT’s with ten seconds left we also had rebounders on the key rather than having them back to set the defense. —Still way too much freelancing and over helping and leaving shooters. It’s a broken record in year six, but all you need is get by primary defender, wait for the overhelping and hit the wide open shooter. On the limited positives, I do think we need the full court pressure in our bag, but also need to vary approaches throughout the game and I think when Wahab is out there we need to go away from it and stay with trapping, and some zone. It’s the first game with new coaches and new players but I was not impressed by what I saw on the defensive side. This is the area I’ll be watching most closely throughout the season. Improving the defense to at least respectable levels is the only way for Us to improve this program from the current depths we find ourselves in. No system can be learned overnights. Takes 3-4 years/classes to get a Pack Line system down and that’s with a Packline expert coach. Same thing with a Syracuse 2-3 zone. Now something like a half court trapping or full court press system can be learned quicker but still takes some time so absurd to think it can be mastered in a couple practices and a couple real games. Coach Nicklebacks defense at LSU became one of the top NCAA defenses but it took some time. heatcheckcbb.com/davis-deep-dives-how-lsu-basketball-became-elite-on-defense/
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hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,261
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Post by hoyaboya on Nov 9, 2022 23:19:13 GMT -5
I, like most here, was excited to hear from PE that Coach Nick (really anyone other than PE) was taking the lead on coaching the defense. I was anxiously interested on what we would show in game 1. Needless to say, disappointed to see many of the same issues as before despite the entire 6 player rotation being new. Big issues that I saw yesterday: —Disconnect in preparation if we planned on a very short rotation (6 players) and also planned to run full court pressure most of the game. —Lack of in-game adjustments, primarily in the second half as we gave up 49 points. Coppin State had little trouble breaking press and getting open threes or getting to the hoop and getting fouled. We forced them into almost no long two point attempts, which should be the goal. At one point late (in the last two minutes) we got up 5 or 6 and still were pressing. It’s like we have no awareness sometimes. When B Murray missed both FT’s with ten seconds left we also had rebounders on the key rather than having them back to set the defense. —Still way too much freelancing and over helping and leaving shooters. It’s a broken record in year six, but all you need is get by primary defender, wait for the overhelping and hit the wide open shooter. On the limited positives, I do think we need the full court pressure in our bag, but also need to vary approaches throughout the game and I think when Wahab is out there we need to go away from it and stay with trapping, and some zone. It’s the first game with new coaches and new players but I was not impressed by what I saw on the defensive side. This is the area I’ll be watching most closely throughout the season. Improving the defense to at least respectable levels is the only way for Us to improve this program from the current depths we find ourselves in. No system can be learned overnights. Takes 3-4 years/classes to get a Pack Line system down and that’s with a Packline expert coach. Same thing with a Syracuse 2-3 zone. Now something like a half court trapping or full court press system can be learned quicker but still takes some time so absurd to think it can be mastered in a couple practices and a couple real games. Coach Nicklebacks defense at LSU became one of the top NCAA defenses but it took some time. heatcheckcbb.com/davis-deep-dives-how-lsu-basketball-became-elite-on-defense/Yeah, let’s give Pat and Nick a few years before we evaluate them on what their defense looks like - too small a sample size at this point.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,864
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 9, 2022 23:40:58 GMT -5
I, like most here, was excited to hear from PE that Coach Nick (really anyone other than PE) was taking the lead on coaching the defense. I was anxiously interested on what we would show in game 1. Needless to say, disappointed to see many of the same issues as before despite the entire 6 player rotation being new. Big issues that I saw yesterday: —Disconnect in preparation if we planned on a very short rotation (6 players) and also planned to run full court pressure most of the game. —Lack of in-game adjustments, primarily in the second half as we gave up 49 points. Coppin State had little trouble breaking press and getting open threes or getting to the hoop and getting fouled. We forced them into almost no long two point attempts, which should be the goal. At one point late (in the last two minutes) we got up 5 or 6 and still were pressing. It’s like we have no awareness sometimes. When B Murray missed both FT’s with ten seconds left we also had rebounders on the key rather than having them back to set the defense. —Still way too much freelancing and over helping and leaving shooters. It’s a broken record in year six, but all you need is get by primary defender, wait for the overhelping and hit the wide open shooter. On the limited positives, I do think we need the full court pressure in our bag, but also need to vary approaches throughout the game and I think when Wahab is out there we need to go away from it and stay with trapping, and some zone. It’s the first game with new coaches and new players but I was not impressed by what I saw on the defensive side. This is the area I’ll be watching most closely throughout the season. Improving the defense to at least respectable levels is the only way for Us to improve this program from the current depths we find ourselves in. No system can be learned overnights. Takes 3-4 years/classes to get a Pack Line system down and that’s with a Packline expert coach. Same thing with a Syracuse 2-3 zone. Now something like a half court trapping or full court press system can be learned quicker but still takes some time so absurd to think it can be mastered in a couple practices and a couple real games. Coach Nicklebacks defense at LSU became one of the top NCAA defenses but it took some time. heatcheckcbb.com/davis-deep-dives-how-lsu-basketball-became-elite-on-defense/Did you watch Seton Hall play tonight? New coach with new players and they were locked in on defense and he played 10 guys for 13 minutes or more... Stop making excuses for consistent issues
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Post by professorhoya on Nov 10, 2022 0:05:08 GMT -5
No system can be learned overnights. Takes 3-4 years/classes to get a Pack Line system down and that’s with a Packline expert coach. Same thing with a Syracuse 2-3 zone. Now something like a half court trapping or full court press system can be learned quicker but still takes some time so absurd to think it can be mastered in a couple practices and a couple real games. Coach Nicklebacks defense at LSU became one of the top NCAA defenses but it took some time. heatcheckcbb.com/davis-deep-dives-how-lsu-basketball-became-elite-on-defense/Did you watch Seton Hall play tonight? New coach with new players and they were locked in on defense and he played 10 guys for 13 minutes or more... Stop making excuses for consistent issues Nope. Shaheen Holloway a great coach. But guess what he’s not leaving his Alma Mater for Georgetown. If you like him so much go become a fan of Seton Hall because he ain’t coming here no matter how much you trash our current coaches.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,864
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 10, 2022 0:17:47 GMT -5
Did you watch Seton Hall play tonight? New coach with new players and they were locked in on defense and he played 10 guys for 13 minutes or more... Stop making excuses for consistent issues Nope. Shaheen Holloway a great coach. But guess what he’s not leaving his Alma Mater for Georgetown. If you like him so much go become a fan of Seton Hall because he ain’t coming here no matter how much you trash our current coaches. I fully understand Holloway isn’t gonna be the coach at Gtown, I was just pointing out your “ it takes time to gel with new players” narrative is as bad as the way Gtown played defense last night … Very little effort and/or lazy
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,864
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 10, 2022 9:14:50 GMT -5
I, like most here, was excited to hear from PE that Coach Nick (really anyone other than PE) was taking the lead on coaching the defense. I was anxiously interested on what we would show in game 1. Needless to say, disappointed to see many of the same issues as before despite the entire 6 player rotation being new. Big issues that I saw yesterday: —Disconnect in preparation if we planned on a very short rotation (6 players) and also planned to run full court pressure most of the game. —Lack of in-game adjustments, primarily in the second half as we gave up 49 points. Coppin State had little trouble breaking press and getting open threes or getting to the hoop and getting fouled. We forced them into almost no long two point attempts, which should be the goal. At one point late (in the last two minutes) we got up 5 or 6 and still were pressing. It’s like we have no awareness sometimes. When B Murray missed both FT’s with ten seconds left we also had rebounders on the key rather than having them back to set the defense. —Still way too much freelancing and over helping and leaving shooters. It’s a broken record in year six, but all you need is get by primary defender, wait for the overhelping and hit the wide open shooter. On the limited positives, I do think we need the full court pressure in our bag, but also need to vary approaches throughout the game and I think when Wahab is out there we need to go away from it and stay with trapping, and some zone. It’s the first game with new coaches and new players but I was not impressed by what I saw on the defensive side. This is the area I’ll be watching most closely throughout the season. Improving the defense to at least respectable levels is the only way for Us to improve this program from the current depths we find ourselves in. No system can be learned overnights. Takes 3-4 years/classes to get a Pack Line system down and that’s with a Packline expert coach. Same thing with a Syracuse 2-3 zone. Now something like a half court trapping or full court press system can be learned quicker but still takes some time so absurd to think it can be mastered in a couple practices and a couple real games. Coach Nicklebacks defense at LSU became one of the top NCAA defenses but it took some time. heatcheckcbb.com/davis-deep-dives-how-lsu-basketball-became-elite-on-defense/This is from the article posted above.. "LSU’s effort and communication along the backline allow its pressure to thrive. With Eason, Efton Reid or Darius Days lurking in the frontcourt, the guards can play aggressive defense as soon as the ball crosses midcourt." We didn't see much communication, even worse we saw little effort besides Akok.. Lack of effort falls on the coaching staff in my opinion
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bigskyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,094
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Post by bigskyhoya on Nov 10, 2022 9:51:23 GMT -5
After only one game against a terrible opponent that we barely won the usual suspects are already lowering the bar for the team and the coaches. I wouldn't waste time trying to win them over. Personally, I will consider anything other than a middle of the pack BE finish a failure, and the idea that we should wait another 3-4 years to judge our Coach is damned depressing.
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kbones17
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,186
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Post by kbones17 on Nov 10, 2022 11:31:21 GMT -5
I don’t think anyone was expecting a fully formed defensive scheme from day 1. But I was expecting more than what I saw, which was a lot of the same issues from the last five years. And this is with an entirely new six man rotation which consisted of veteran college players (2 sophomores, 2 RS juniors, 1 senior and 1 postgrad). I saw no effective adjustments in game and a fatal mistake in failing to foul up three in the final seconds. We had a significant size and talent advantage on that team and we basically accommodated everything they wanted to do offensively. Need to see dramatic improvement game to game to give me hope.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,351
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Post by calhoya on Nov 10, 2022 12:01:20 GMT -5
Totally agree that implementing a defense takes more than one game and hoping/expecting to see significant improvements over next few games. Lack of effort on defense is not something that should require several games. However, some of the "lack of effort" in this game can be explained by the decision of the coaching staff to use only a 6 man rotation in conjunction with consistent pressure defense. Not many teams can maintain that pace for a full game without some slacking off..
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 10, 2022 12:26:21 GMT -5
No system can be learned overnights. Takes 3-4 years/classes to get a Pack Line system down and that’s with a Packline expert coach. Same thing with a Syracuse 2-3 zone. Now something like a half court trapping or full court press system can be learned quicker but still takes some time so absurd to think it can be mastered in a couple practices and a couple real games. Coach Nicklebacks defense at LSU became one of the top NCAA defenses but it took some time. heatcheckcbb.com/davis-deep-dives-how-lsu-basketball-became-elite-on-defense/I agree with you that no system can be learned overnight, but if a coach needs 3-4 years to teach a system, that is probably not a very effective system for 2022, when the odds of having the same guys that long is low (and for Georgetown, simply never happens). I find it hard to believe pack the line takes that long to teach, but I defer to those who know. I am not sure why we are calling the defense at LSU Coach Nickelberry's as if he had ownership over it. Will Wade, and other assistants presumably were involved. Do we have any indication that Nickelberry guided it? If so, that would be a good thing, of course, but I have seen nothing to date indicating that is the case. (And other than last year, LSU's defense the years before was actually really bad). Bottom line: Tons of coaches teach effective systems, ranging from fairly simply to complex, and have success with those systems. The key is the ability to *teach* guys and help them improve on that defense. It might take a while to be perfect, but Georgetown has set the bar so low on offense, that significant improvement could occur relatively quickly with the right coaching.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,271
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Post by prhoya on Nov 10, 2022 12:39:30 GMT -5
From Pat’s mouth, we know that the team prioritized defense in practice during the off-season.
Basketball defense is not rocket science. It doesn’t take 3-4 years to learn. Nothing in basketball takes that long to learn.
If the defense you want to play is too complex for your first-year players, be it freshmen or transfers, and you know that you lose your 5-9 (10 if Dante stays MIA) top players every year, then you need to scrap it and find something simple. Under Pat, we’ve been so bad defensively that just an average defense would do wonders for Pat’s overall disastrous record.
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hoopsmccan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,419
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Post by hoopsmccan on Nov 10, 2022 13:19:45 GMT -5
From Pat’s mouth, we know that the team prioritized defense in practice during the off-season. Basketball defense is not rocket science. It doesn’t take 3-4 years to learn. Nothing in basketball takes that long to learn. If the defense you want to play is too complex for your first-year players, be it freshmen or transfers, and you know that you lose your 5-6 top players every year, then you need to scrap it and find something simple. Under Pat, we’ve been so bad defensively that just an average defense would do wonders for Pat’s overall disastrous record. The defense cannot be too complex. Year in and year out, different players get it seemingly immediately. If you are guarding the ball, let the guy get into the lane. If you are off the ball, collapse on the ball in the lane leaving the three-point line wide open. Pretty simple actually. hm
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sweetness
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 834
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Post by sweetness on Nov 10, 2022 15:59:21 GMT -5
The press was a disaster. Easily broken with one/two passes.
Can't we just focus on playing solid half court D? We now have two shot-blocking bigs who can swallow up guys driving to the basket.
If we are behind and you want to pick up the pace then I can see a press, but otherwise it just leads to wide open 3s for the other team.
More broadly, I also don't think presses are that effective anymore. These days teams have so many good ball-handlers, and will kill you with open 3s.
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hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,813
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Post by hoyazeke on Nov 10, 2022 18:18:57 GMT -5
It bothers me that Ewing is unwilling to sacrifice offense for better defense. We saw 1st hand last season how TCU, USCe and SDSt had bad offenses but really good defenses and were able to play competitive basketball. I would love to see better defenders like Riley and Bass get some of Bristol's and Murray's minutes (especially Bristol's) throughout the game.
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hoya9797
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,201
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Post by hoya9797 on Nov 10, 2022 18:59:15 GMT -5
It bothers me that Ewing is unwilling to sacrifice offense for better defense. We saw 1st hand last season how TCU, USCe and SDSt had bad offenses but really good defenses and were able to play competitive basketball. I would love to see better defenders like Riley and Bass get some of Bristol's and Murray's minutes (especially Bristol's) throughout the game. It’s amusing that you think this a choice Ewing is making. This is the best he can do. He’s not making any sacrifices, he’s just terrible at this and has no clue how to do better.
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miracles87
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,150
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Post by miracles87 on Nov 11, 2022 0:08:02 GMT -5
After only one game against a terrible opponent that we barely won the usual suspects are already lowering the bar for the team and the coaches. I wouldn't waste time trying to win them over. Personally, I will consider anything other than a middle of the pack BE finish a failure, and the idea that we should wait another 3-4 years to judge our Coach is damned depressing. in the meantime, botskyhoya, you could try actually watching the games... No, really, they're fun!
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Just Cos
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Eat 'em up Hoyas
Posts: 1,506
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Post by Just Cos on Nov 11, 2022 2:53:03 GMT -5
I bleed Hoya Blue like you all but I’m shocked that anyone could say anything positive about our defense or even defend it.
Same issues as last year with no signs of improvement besides one dude that gives his all every play in defense (which is a big deal in itself).
For those that wanted a lot more full court press you got it. I’m hoping that conversation is done.
I just want good and effective defense with some sort of cohesion. Effort, communicate, and care. Why does that feel like an impossible ask.
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Elvado
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,480
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Post by Elvado on Nov 11, 2022 7:22:25 GMT -5
No system can be learned overnights. Takes 3-4 years/classes to get a Pack Line system down and that’s with a Packline expert coach. Same thing with a Syracuse 2-3 zone. Now something like a half court trapping or full court press system can be learned quicker but still takes some time so absurd to think it can be mastered in a couple practices and a couple real games. Coach Nicklebacks defense at LSU became one of the top NCAA defenses but it took some time. heatcheckcbb.com/davis-deep-dives-how-lsu-basketball-became-elite-on-defense/Yeah, let’s give Pat and Nick a few years before we evaluate them on what their defense looks like - too small a sample size at this point. A “few years”? We need to go 7, 8, 9 years into the Ewing Error to see if he can coach defense? Good Lord.
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