prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Feb 1, 2023 14:37:49 GMT -5
I don’t have time to answer right now, but in the meantime: 1. Do you want next year’s coach to be Patrick Ewing or someone with connections to the Thompson family? 2. Does the next GU head coach need to be African-American? Responses 1. Patrick Ewing should have been never hired and should have been fired after each and every season that he has coached. He is a TERRIBLE coach and program killer. It has been apparent since the first game and EVERY game since. His extension is literally the worst contract in the history of college basketball (I defy anyone to challenge this). I don't care if the next coach has connections to the Thompson family. I want the next coach to be a great coach. 2. Per usual you bring your racist garbage into this. I don't think that is a consideration here (JT JR. didn't concern himself with this when he handpicked Esh to be his successor). WE need to pick the best coach to lead the program forward, taking into account all factors. And if it doesn't work out in a couple years, we need to fire this person and move on to another one, until we find the next great Georgetown coach. Thanks for answering. These questions are necessary when considering who is the author of a post. If the answer to both questions is yes, then there’s nothing left to discuss. There’s nothing racist about the questions. As has been posted throughout the years, there’s a very small group of fans left who answer “yes” to both questions. If anything, a person who would answer “yes” to both is racist. Like you, I want the best coach, regardless of sex, origin, race, etc… Since the Thompsons never bothered to create a successful coaching tree, then by definition, the next coach cannot be someone close to the Thompsons.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,740
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 1, 2023 15:07:33 GMT -5
Where did Goodman on ESPN who reported on the Mack offer get the $4 million number from? I'll tell you. From the offer Georgetown made to Mack. Goodman heard from Mack's agent, who was also negotiating with Louisville and got UL to match that number, which they did. There has never been a corroborating claim of an offer from anyone else.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 1, 2023 15:10:26 GMT -5
While "firing his son" sounds on paper like something JT2 would have a problem with, if anybody observed JT3's lack of passion his last couple years (including his absence from recruiting events), JT3 walking away with a $9M severance for being fired is very much something JT2 and JT3 were just fine with. Particularly if that was followed by hiring Ewing which allowed the Thompson family gravy train to continue rolling at Georgetown, including the employment of Fredo. Just so I understand what you are saying here. You are saying that JT3 getting fired with a severance "is very much something JT2 and JT3 were just fine with." Really? You don't think that was an embarrassment to both of them? You think they were happy with that outcome? Then you think the THompson's view of Georgetown was a "gravy train". Really? JT2 devoted his career and retirement to the success of Georgetown basketball. He had a vested interest and a legacy at stake. Your view, is that it was all about the money? About getting Ewing paid? And Ronny paid? Everyone wants their kids to have a job. SO maybe I could see hiring Ronny as a favor to JT2. But I am sure your take that everything was OK with JT2 because Ewing and ROnny were getting paid is absurdist reductionist garbage. JT2 wanted us to win. His legacy mattered to him. He had a vested interest in the success in Georgetown basketball. Based on what we know, to me it is clear that, if left to their own devices, that DeGioia and John Thompson would have been perfectly fine letting JT3 coach out his contract. While JT3's performance declined after 2013, especially in light of the freedom of movement rules that essentially destroyed his ability to reach quality defense without excessive fouls (and he never adjusted successfully), it is easy to forget that JT3 was fired 2 years from being a 4 seed in the tournament. Compared to Ewing, JT3's performance was substantially better even in his down years. Ultimately, what did JT3 in was his inability to coach defense without fouling (which led to us losing a ton of games on free throw disparity), the good on paper recruiting class that was Peak, Copeland, White, but that ultimately was a big failure, his poor communications with the fan base and handling of the media, and the NCAA upsets which had people gunning for his head for years. If DeGioia and Thompson had no problem firing JT3, they would not have waited until late March, after he lost Tremont Waters to do so. It's easy to forget the feverish pitch and ire that fans were directing at him, and the Board (including Mourning) were angry about the program. This forced DeGioia's hand. DeGioia's statement said, "It is with profound regret and deep appreciation that I informed John Thompson III this morning that the university will no longer be retaining his services as head men’s basketball coach,” DeGioia said." To me, it's clear DeGioia was dragged into it by the Board and forced his hand. That is why I am sure that DeGioia and John Thompson liked the idea of hiring Ewing. Clearly, they did not figure JT3 would be fired or they would have been better prepared, and rather than doing an extensive search they kept it in the family by hiring Ewing. So, I don't think that John Thompson was fine with firing his son because of the buyout. I think he was displeased, but understood he had no choice, so he did the second best thing by suggesting that the university to hire Ewing, and given DeGioia's close relationship with Thompson it likely seemed like a splendid idea that took some of the sting off dismissing JT3. Keep in mind Thompson was still coach emeritus, still being paid by Georgetown, and still a fixture at practices and press conferences. If Georgetown hired someone outside the family, it would have threatend Thompson's continued involvement with the program, and Thompson would not have wanted that. And DeGioia was not the type of person to rock that boat when he could avoid it.
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Post by wrestlemania on Feb 1, 2023 16:08:22 GMT -5
Just so I understand what you are saying here. You are saying that JT3 getting fired with a severance "is very much something JT2 and JT3 were just fine with." Really? You don't think that was an embarrassment to both of them? You think they were happy with that outcome? Then you think the THompson's view of Georgetown was a "gravy train". Really? JT2 devoted his career and retirement to the success of Georgetown basketball. He had a vested interest and a legacy at stake. Your view, is that it was all about the money? About getting Ewing paid? And Ronny paid? Everyone wants their kids to have a job. SO maybe I could see hiring Ronny as a favor to JT2. But I am sure your take that everything was OK with JT2 because Ewing and ROnny were getting paid is absurdist reductionist garbage. JT2 wanted us to win. His legacy mattered to him. He had a vested interest in the success in Georgetown basketball. Based on what we know, to me it is clear that, if left to their own devices, that DeGioia and John Thompson would have been perfectly fine letting JT3 coach out his contract. While JT3's performance declined after 2013, especially in light of the freedom of movement rules that essentially destroyed his ability to reach quality defense without excessive fouls (and he never adjusted successfully), it is easy to forget that JT3 was fired 2 years from being a 4 seed in the tournament. Compared to Ewing, JT3's performance was substantially better even in his down years. Ultimately, what did JT3 in was his inability to coach defense without fouling (which led to us losing a ton of games on free throw disparity), the good on paper recruiting class that was Peak, Copeland, White, but that ultimately was a big failure, his poor communications with the fan base and handling of the media, and the NCAA upsets which had people gunning for his head for years. If DeGioia and Thompson had no problem firing JT3, they would not have waited until late March, after he lost Tremont Waters to do so. It's easy to forget the feverish pitch and ire that fans were directing at him, and the Board (including Mourning) were angry about the program. This forced DeGioia's hand. DeGioia's statement said, "It is with profound regret and deep appreciation that I informed John Thompson III this morning that the university will no longer be retaining his services as head men’s basketball coach,” DeGioia said." To me, it's clear DeGioia was dragged into it by the Board and forced his hand. That is why I am sure that DeGioia and John Thompson liked the idea of hiring Ewing. Clearly, they did not figure JT3 would be fired or they would have been better prepared, and rather than doing an extensive search they kept it in the family by hiring Ewing. So, I don't think that John Thompson was fine with firing his son because of the buyout. I think he was displeased, but understood he had no choice, so he did the second best thing by suggesting that the university to hire Ewing, and given DeGioia's close relationship with Thompson it likely seemed like a splendid idea that took some of the sting off dismissing JT3. Keep in mind Thompson was still coach emeritus, still being paid by Georgetown, and still a fixture at practices and press conferences. If Georgetown hired someone outside the family, it would have threatend Thompson's continued involvement with the program, and Thompson would not have wanted that. And DeGioia was not the type of person to rock that boat when he could avoid it. From what I remember, the rumor de jour at the time was basically consistent with your take -- Jack and the AD wanted to bring JTIII back and thought the Board would rubber-stamp it, but the Board surprised them. I also remember that, at least from what I saw, it wasn't just the losing -- I think there was a sense that things were starting to fall apart and that JTIII was going to have more difficulty getting good players to come and stay. Losing Tremont Waters reinforced that opinion. I concede that Big John wanted to maintain a winning tradition, but I think it's clear he valued maintaining control of the program more. Otherwise he would not have pushed for Ewing when there wasn't really a good basketball reason to hire him.
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playtyler
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 245
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Post by playtyler on Feb 1, 2023 18:08:57 GMT -5
Where did Goodman on ESPN who reported on the Mack offer get the $4 million number from? I'll tell you. From the offer Georgetown made to Mack. Goodman heard from Mack's agent, who was also negotiating with Louisville and got UL to match that number, which they did. There has never been a corroborating claim of an offer from anyone else. Are you saying this is incorrect information? I am just trying to understand the negative inference. I don't think an agent would publicly float an offer and a number that wasn't true for fear that it would be disclaimed and embarrassing if provably false.
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hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by hoyaboya on Feb 1, 2023 18:22:08 GMT -5
Goodman heard from Mack's agent, who was also negotiating with Louisville and got UL to match that number, which they did. There has never been a corroborating claim of an offer from anyone else. Are you saying this is incorrect information? I am just trying to understand the negative inference. I don't think an agent would publicly float an offer and a number that wasn't true for fear that it would be disclaimed and embarrassing if provably false. Naive or purposely obtuse?
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guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,599
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Post by guru on Feb 1, 2023 18:23:05 GMT -5
Goodman heard from Mack's agent, who was also negotiating with Louisville and got UL to match that number, which they did. There has never been a corroborating claim of an offer from anyone else. Are you saying this is incorrect information? I am just trying to understand the negative inference. I don't think an agent would publicly float an offer and a number that wasn't true for fear that it would be disclaimed and embarrassing if provably false. Yes that’s what we are all saying.
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playtyler
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 245
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Post by playtyler on Feb 1, 2023 18:31:15 GMT -5
Are you saying this is incorrect information? I am just trying to understand the negative inference. I don't think an agent would publicly float an offer and a number that wasn't true for fear that it would be disclaimed and embarrassing if provably false. Yes that’s what we are all saying. Right. All of you are basing this on what? The lack of corroboration of an offer that Jeff Goodman posted about? Why would it be corroborated? Sure it was used as leverage. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. No one has ever denied it happened. For some unknowable reason you all seem to think it didn't. It just came out of thin air? A specific number? Just let me know one reason to doubt this (other than that he used it as a factor in negotiating with Louisville).
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,443
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Post by TC on Feb 1, 2023 18:57:30 GMT -5
Yes that’s what we are all saying. Right. All of you are basing this on what? The lack of corroboration of an offer that Jeff Goodman posted about? Why would it be corroborated? Sure it was used as leverage. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen. No one has ever denied it happened. For some unknowable reason you all seem to think it didn't. It just came out of thin air? A specific number? Just let me know one reason to doubt this (other than that he used it as a factor in negotiating with Louisville). Mack coaching another in-conference team, Goodman and Mack's cozy relationship, the number being the first thing cited, people discussing salary in feelers ...
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hoyaguy
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,848
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Post by hoyaguy on Feb 1, 2023 20:38:22 GMT -5
I would like to know your sources. While there are definitely reports about these folks, what about anybody else? There is zero evidence Georgetown even attempted to interview anybody else, such as other up and comers, or even assistants. Why would a real search not bother to even interview Hurley? Obviously, Tom Crean bombed after leaving Indiana, but as of 2017 he had a record that would have at least warranted a look, and he said Georgetown wasn't interested. www.si.com/college/2017/04/02/georgetown-coaching-search-hoyas-thompsonThe subtext not included in the above is that whenever "politics" is mentioned it equals dealing with John Thompson. And this was particularly prescient: I don't disagree with your post or THamel's article at all. It was a terrible embarrassing process. I agree that JT JR. remained a towering figure and influence over the program that he created. I am just saying it is hard to say this was his process when it started with firing his son. And that there were multiple coaches approached (maybe only the ones listed in the Thamel article) who turned us down publicly and embarrassingly. I don't have evidence of others and agree there should have been others considered. The process was completely botched. I am just saying the blame for that should go to the person in charge ... Degioia. Even if the reports are true that a coach turned down 4 MILLION, why do you think they would do that? The "towering figure and influence" could have stepped away to allow things to flow without any Thompson involved when it was obvious that affected not only the admin's judgement but also any prospective coach who might be interviewing, if they even bothered doing that. JD has been incompetent yes, but to say that the other Thompsons are not at fault at all is denying reality. He may not have had total control of the process but no objective, real, Thompson-influence-free search was conducted if the only candidate taking the job was Ewing
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miracles87
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,150
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Post by miracles87 on Feb 2, 2023 1:04:56 GMT -5
don't be so modest! you are truly a superfan for rooting for the team to lose! I never said I was rooting for our guys to lose, I said I was supporting our guys. But, I'd happily exchange losing every remaining game this season in exchange for a better coach next season, and it's not even close. Please keep in mind that Ewing's performance last year, at any other university, would have resulted in dismissal. So, in that context, I think it's hard to blame us for being jaded, and thinking that if Ewing or Nickelberry were to win a few more games that Georgetown might change their mind, or just hire someone else not qualified (Nickelberry). You have already proven at length that you care more about Ewing than the program, which is fine if that's your position. For me, as an alumnus, I prefer that we have a better program next year, with a new coach. If that requires losing the 10 games we have remaining, so be it. "I never said I was rooting for our guys to lose" "I'd happily exchange losing every remaining game this season in exchange for a better coach next season, and it's not even close" "For me, as an alumnus, I prefer that we have a better program next year, with a new coach. If that requires losing the 10 games we have remaining, so be it." Gotta tell ya, Hoyasaxa2003, I've known a lot of Georgetown grads for a very long time, and I cannot recall any of them saying or writing anything as remotely, um, well, you know, absurd, as this. Also, I have never once said that I care more about Ewing or the Thompsons than the program. I have stated many times that I understand why many people want Ewing gone. I do love Ewing, and I love me some Thompsons. I have had a rich and rewarding life rooting for the Hoyas and Ewing and the Thompsons, and I find the vitriol directed towards them to be a poor reflection of those who engage in it. Where I come from, you stand by your people in hard times, you don't toss them in the garbage. Stop speaking out of both sides of your mouth, and stop misrepresenting my viewpoints
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 2, 2023 1:12:36 GMT -5
I never said I was rooting for our guys to lose, I said I was supporting our guys. But, I'd happily exchange losing every remaining game this season in exchange for a better coach next season, and it's not even close. Please keep in mind that Ewing's performance last year, at any other university, would have resulted in dismissal. So, in that context, I think it's hard to blame us for being jaded, and thinking that if Ewing or Nickelberry were to win a few more games that Georgetown might change their mind, or just hire someone else not qualified (Nickelberry). You have already proven at length that you care more about Ewing than the program, which is fine if that's your position. For me, as an alumnus, I prefer that we have a better program next year, with a new coach. If that requires losing the 10 games we have remaining, so be it. "I never said I was rooting for our guys to lose" "I'd happily exchange losing every remaining game this season in exchange for a better coach next season, and it's not even close" "For me, as an alumnus, I prefer that we have a better program next year, with a new coach. If that requires losing the 10 games we have remaining, so be it." Gotta tell ya, Hoyasaxa2003, I've known a lot of Georgetown grads for a very long time, and I cannot recall any of them saying or writing anything as remotely, um, well, you know, absurd, as this. Also, I have never once said that I care more about Ewing or the Thompsons than the program. I have stated many times that I understand why many people want Ewing gone. I do love Ewing, and I love me some Thompsons. I have had a rich and rewarding life rooting for the Hoyas and Ewing and the Thompsons, and I find the vitriol directed towards them to be a poor reflection of those who engage in it. Where I come from, you stand by your people in hard times, you don't toss them in the garbage. Stop speaking out of both sides of your mouth, and stop misrepresenting my viewpoints I am sorry you cannot understand my position that it is simultaneously possible to root for our guys to succeed, while also wanting the necessary change required to get us out of this morass. I stand by my position.
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gunny
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 559
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Post by gunny on Feb 2, 2023 1:13:21 GMT -5
"I never said I was rooting for our guys to lose" "I'd happily exchange losing every remaining game this season in exchange for a better coach next season, and it's not even close" "For me, as an alumnus, I prefer that we have a better program next year, with a new coach. If that requires losing the 10 games we have remaining, so be it." Gotta tell ya, Hoyasaxa2003, I've known a lot of Georgetown grads for a very long time, and I cannot recall any of them saying or writing anything as remotely, um, well, you know, absurd, as this. Also, I have never once said that I care more about Ewing or the Thompsons than the program. I have stated many times that I understand why many people want Ewing gone. I do love Ewing, and I love me some Thompsons. I have had a rich and rewarding life rooting for the Hoyas and Ewing and the Thompsons, and I find the vitriol directed towards them to be a poor reflection of those who engage in it. Where I come from, you stand by your people in hard times, you don't toss them in the garbage. Stop speaking out of both sides of your mouth, and stop misrepresenting my viewpoints I am sorry you cannot understand my position that it is simultaneously possible to root for our guys to succeed, while also wanting the necessary change required to get us out of this morass. I stand by my position. Let's Go Hoyas!
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hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,261
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Post by hoyaboya on Feb 10, 2023 9:47:08 GMT -5
"College basketball's most disappointing transfer portal hauls from 2022 cycle... GEORGETOWN The Hoyas added way too much talent out of the transfer portal to be 6-19 overall and 1-13 in Big East play. Georgetown’s seven-highest scorers are all transfers. Primo Spears, Brandon Murray and Jay Heath have teamed up to be double-digit scorers in the backcourt. Murray, one of the jewels of the 2022 transfer portal cycle out of LSU, has had some enormous dunks and eye-popping highlights. But it hasn’t translated to winning at all. It seems like only a matter of time until Georgetown makes a coaching change." 247sports.com/LongFormArticle/College-basketballs-most-disappointing-transfer-portal-hauls-from-2022-cycle-204489942/#204489942_6
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Elvado
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,480
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Post by Elvado on Feb 10, 2023 10:35:53 GMT -5
"College basketball's most disappointing transfer portal hauls from 2022 cycle... GEORGETOWN The Hoyas added way too much talent out of the transfer portal to be 6-19 overall and 1-13 in Big East play. Georgetown’s seven-highest scorers are all transfers. Primo Spears, Brandon Murray and Jay Heath have teamed up to be double-digit scorers in the backcourt. Murray, one of the jewels of the 2022 transfer portal cycle out of LSU, has had some enormous dunks and eye-popping highlights. But it hasn’t translated to winning at all. It seems like only a matter of time until Georgetown makes a coaching change." 247sports.com/LongFormArticle/College-basketballs-most-disappointing-transfer-portal-hauls-from-2022-cycle-204489942/#204489942_6So much for the instant impact of the Traveling Nickelberrys. Their impact reminds me of Ralph Kiner going to Branch Rickey and demanding a salary increase after hitting 50 HR’s. Branch told him”we came in last with you, we can come in last without you” and traded him. Kevin better hope he leased rather than bought a home.
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Post by hoyasaxaphone on Feb 10, 2023 10:58:18 GMT -5
Love the "Traveling Nickelberrys"! I've used that expression a number of times since the circus arrived!
Also great to see the press calling out the incredibly incompetent coaching effort by Ewing.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 10, 2023 11:07:18 GMT -5
Kevin better hope he leased rather than bought a home. Given the precedent set with Ewing, my guess is Nickelberry got a guaranteed 3-5 year deal with no buyout. So he will probably have ample time to collect a salary and get a new job.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 10, 2023 11:09:33 GMT -5
I understand the disappointment that Nickelberry has not worked out, but I fail to understand why fans seem to have animus toward him.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 10, 2023 11:13:06 GMT -5
I understand the disappointment that Nickelberry has not worked out, but I fail to understand why fans seem to have animus toward him. For what it's worth, I do not have animus against Nickelberry at all. Any animus I have is reserved for the adminstration for thinking that the answer last year was to hire people like Nickelberry rather than making a change at the top. It's essentially wasted a year of fandom we will never get back.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Feb 10, 2023 11:17:42 GMT -5
I understand the disappointment that Nickelberry has not worked out, but I fail to understand why fans seem to have animus toward him. I have no issue with him other than he is a "Ronny guy". You can't keep him around because that keeps the spying eyes of Ronny in the building. Same thing with most of those associated with the team. Baldwin seemed like a fall back. They must have liked him while recruiting his son and decided he wouldn't rock the boat so why not. That hire lacked any real vision. It's the same thing with a guy like Howze. I have no idea what he does or doesn't bring to the table but if he is a Ronny guy (he is), then he has to go. You also don't have a DOBO that is that old. That is for a 20 something looking to grind, not a 50 something looking to coast.
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