Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Jan 31, 2023 18:47:58 GMT -5
The reason that Ewing can't be fired now is because he has an employment contract with the university. Typically if you are negotiating a "resignation" you give the employee an opportunity to save face. For Ewing, that probably means coaching out the rest of the season ... he has some leverage particularly if there's a chance that he'll accept less than every dollar owed to him. Nickelberry's HC run at Howard was a disaster. The program is actually probably better off with Ewing just taking losses than risking Nickelberry, Baldwin -- another failed HC, or RT -- another failed HC, winning a few games and making a case to be hired. Also, any new HC worth hiring is going to clean house ... there should be no pressure to keep anyone associated with this season or last season employed by the basketball program. You will grow a unicorn horn out of your forehead before Pat foregoes one red cent. In that regard, he is Big John’s third son.
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playtyler
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Post by playtyler on Jan 31, 2023 21:04:56 GMT -5
The reason that Ewing can't be fired now is because he has an employment contract with the university. Typically if you are negotiating a "resignation" you give the employee an opportunity to save face. For Ewing, that probably means coaching out the rest of the season ... he has some leverage particularly if there's a chance that he'll accept less than every dollar owed to him. Nickelberry's HC run at Howard was a disaster. The program is actually probably better off with Ewing just taking losses than risking Nickelberry, Baldwin -- another failed HC, or RT -- another failed HC, winning a few games and making a case to be hired. Also, any new HC worth hiring is going to clean house ... there should be no pressure to keep anyone associated with this season or last season employed by the basketball program. You will grow a unicorn horn out of your forehead before Pat foregoes one red cent. In that regard, he is Big John’s third son. As usual Practice is a Big Zero. You are correct - Ewing will not take a penny less than he is owed. This is literally his last job and paycheck and he will get his $$. That is not because he is Big John's third son, as you say. Sure Big John told his guys to go and make their money. Which is/was good advice. But Big John could have made loads more than he did staying and collecting his big checks (and even bigger money leveraging his brand) instead of handing the program off to Esh mid-season. Big JOhn never maximized his earning potential in his career. Fire Ewing before the end of the season so we can get a jump on teams looking for coaches. I am jealous of Notre Dame getting a head start on this process. This whole blame Big John for everything is ridiculous. They fired his son. That was not in service of Big John. Neither was hiring Ewing. The unfortunate truth is that we sniffed around other big names who all said no (I acknowledge here that some of this may be due to Big John's continued presence), so we hired Ewing was the best ever player for the program and long time NBA assistant. It was a terrible hire. Who should be blamed for that? Then there was the unforgivable extension. Who should be blamed for that? Ronny still has his tentacles everywhere around the program. All of these things (hiring, extension, Ronny) are the direct responsibility of one person. Ewing should not be faulted for agreeing to and taking the full extension money. Someone else deserves the blame. We all know who is actually making the decisions here. Stop with the shifting of blame to Big John. There is only one throughline here. It is Jack. Practice, somehow for the first time in his life got one thing right. Nickelberry had ten years at two programs to win the MEAC and couldn't. That is a non-starter. Pitino has lost his fastball. Let's move on to a hot young coach or assistant and see if it works. If not, we fire them and try again. Rutgers, ALabama, Arizona, Baylor, Marquette, etc. didn't get the hire right the first time. They moved on and eventually got it right this time. That is what matters.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 31, 2023 22:54:45 GMT -5
You will grow a unicorn horn out of your forehead before Pat foregoes one red cent. In that regard, he is Big John’s third son. As usual Practice is a Big Zero. You are correct - Ewing will not take a penny less than he is owed. This is literally his last job and paycheck and he will get his $$. That is not because he is Big John's third son, as you say. Sure Big John told his guys to go and make their money. Which is/was good advice. But Big John could have made loads more than he did staying and collecting his big checks (and even bigger money leveraging his brand) instead of handing the program off to Esh mid-season. Big JOhn never maximized his earning potential in his career. Fire Ewing before the end of the season so we can get a jump on teams looking for coaches. I am jealous of Notre Dame getting a head start on this process. This whole blame Big John for everything is ridiculous. They fired his son. That was not in service of Big John. Neither was hiring Ewing. The unfortunate truth is that we sniffed around other big names who all said no (I acknowledge here that some of this may be due to Big John's continued presence), so we hired Ewing was the best ever player for the program and long time NBA assistant. It was a terrible hire. Who should be blamed for that? Then there was the unforgivable extension. Who should be blamed for that? Ronny still has his tentacles everywhere around the program. All of these things (hiring, extension, Ronny) are the direct responsibility of one person. Ewing should not be faulted for agreeing to and taking the full extension money. Someone else deserves the blame. We all know who is actually making the decisions here. Stop with the shifting of blame to Big John. There is only one throughline here. It is Jack. Practice, somehow for the first time in his life got one thing right. Nickelberry had ten years at two programs to win the MEAC and couldn't. That is a non-starter. Pitino has lost his fastball. Let's move on to a hot young coach or assistant and see if it works. If not, we fire them and try again. Rutgers, ALabama, Arizona, Baylor, Marquette, etc. didn't get the hire right the first time. They moved on and eventually got it right this time. That is what matters. So, if we are to believe your position: (1) Ronny chose Ewing as the coach, even though John Thompson admitted that he directly reached out to Ewing and convinced him to take the job. And then DeGioia agreed. I think Ronny has a lot of culpability, but not for this. (2) DeGioia is to blame for the extension. Even if Ronny advocated it for, DeGioia has fiduciary duties to Georgetown as its President and surely signed off on it. The Board, too, likely. They're all at fault, but I think DeGioia should get primary blame, and frankly should explain why he agreed to such a boneheaded decision. (3) Hiring Ewing absolutely was in service of John Thompson for the reason described above - the hire would likely have not happened without John Thompson. (4) The fact is John Thompson did a major disservice to the program by saddling the program with Ewing. It's part of his legacy. I appreciate that John Thompson built the program, but he also played a significant role in its fall over the last several years.
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AltoSaxa
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Post by AltoSaxa on Jan 31, 2023 23:25:51 GMT -5
“I appreciate that John Thompson built the program, but he also played a significant role in its fall over the last several years.”
John Thompson is responsible for the fall of this program over two decades.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 31, 2023 23:30:47 GMT -5
“I appreciate that John Thompson built the program, but he also played a significant role in its fall over the last several years.” John Thompson is responsible for the fall of this program over two decades. Other than his marital troubles, and perhaps loss of fire in the belly for the program, I don't full see why Thompson stepped away in 1999. Because even then, he was still exercising influence and clear he wasn't disapppearing. He was instrumental in Esherick's hiring:
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AltoSaxa
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Post by AltoSaxa on Feb 1, 2023 6:34:51 GMT -5
Thank you … two decades
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playtyler
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Post by playtyler on Feb 1, 2023 11:44:12 GMT -5
Hoyatalk posters seem to have no memory of what actually happened. The obsession with blaming everything on JT Jr. here is beyond absurd. JT Jr. wanted Georgetown to be successful. He was OK with firing his own son if it meant a needed new direction for the program. Two Decades? In 2015 we tied for second in the Big East. In 2013 we won the Big East Regular season. From 2005 to 2013 we were ranked in top 10 in the country at some point every season. In 2015 we had a great freshman class come in (Peak, White, COpeland). We beat Indiana in OT at MSG, beat a ranked Florida team in Atlantis and lost to number 2 ranked Wisconsin team 68-65 in Atlantis, lost to a great Kansas team 75-70 at home, beat number 4 ranked Villanova by 20 at home, and won an NCAA tournament game. That was not so terrible. Ronny did not pick Ewing (JD did). And while I agree that ROnny is probably toxic to the program and should not be involved in any way, he gets way too much blame for all of the problems. His boss (Ewing) and his boss' boss (JD) should shoulder all of the blame. As for how we ended up here. We tried other coaches. It is well documented. www.foxsports.com/stories/college-basketball/as-bungled-coaching-search-continues-georgetown-operates-with-no-plan Ewing was the default choice after an embarrassing search led to no other viable candidates. SO here we are. Not because JT Jr. manipulated a process where his own son was fired for the better of the program. Yes, JT Jr. was around to oversee the program he built from scratch. JT Jr. isn't here any more and he isn't to blame for what happened here. THere are only two people to blame here. Ewing and Jack DeGioia. To blame JT Jr. and Ronny for this mess is to see ghosts. The actual perpetrators walk around campus and are the highest paid employees of the University. The last process to replace the coach was embarrassing and we ended up with a terrible hire. Let's hope they have a better plan this time.
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TC
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Post by TC on Feb 1, 2023 11:54:35 GMT -5
Hoyatalk posters seem to have no memory of what actually happened. The obsession with blaming everything on JT Jr. here is beyond absurd. JT Jr. wanted Georgetown to be successful. He was OK with firing his own son if it meant a needed new direction for the program. So you think JT would have been super happy if they had gone out and hired Danny Hurley? Part of making JT "ok with the school firing his own son" was JT getting to choose the next coach and the next coach "employing" his other son (I'm putting air quotes on employing because I don't think it is particularly evident what the reporting relationship is between Ewing and Ronny and who reports to who or who holds more power). Which is why we should never have fired JT3 in 2017.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 1, 2023 11:56:57 GMT -5
Hoyatalk posters seem to have no memory of what actually happened. The obsession with blaming everything on JT Jr. here is beyond absurd. JT Jr. wanted Georgetown to be successful. He was OK with firing his own son if it meant a needed new direction for the program. Two Decades? In 2015 we tied for second in the Big East. In 2013 we won the Big East Regular season. From 2005 to 2013 we were ranked in top 10 in the country at some point every season. In 2015 we had a great freshman class come in (Peak, White, COpeland). We beat Indiana in OT at MSG, beat a ranked Florida team in Atlantis and lost to number 2 ranked Wisconsin team 68-65 in Atlantis, lost to a great Kansas team 75-70 at home, beat number 4 ranked Villanova by 20 at home, and won an NCAA tournament game. That was not so terrible. Ronny did not pick Ewing (JD did). And while I agree that ROnny is probably toxic to the program and should not be involved in any way, he gets way too much blame for all of the problems. His boss (Ewing) and his boss' boss (JD) should shoulder all of the blame. As for how we ended up here. We tried other coaches. It is well documented. www.foxsports.com/stories/college-basketball/as-bungled-coaching-search-continues-georgetown-operates-with-no-plan Ewing was the default choice after an embarrassing search led to no other viable candidates. SO here we are. Not because JT Jr. manipulated a process where his own son was fired for the better of the program. Yes, JT Jr. was around to oversee the program he built from scratch. JT Jr. isn't here any more and he isn't to blame for what happened here. THere are only two people to blame here. Ewing and Jack DeGioia. To blame JT Jr. and Ronny for this mess is to see ghosts. The actual perpetrators walk around campus and are the highest paid employees of the University. The last process to replace the coach was embarrassing and we ended up with a terrible hire. Let's hope they have a better plan this time. I don’t have time to answer right now, but in the meantime: 1. Do you want next year’s coach to be Patrick Ewing or someone with connections to the Thompson family? 2. Does the next GU head coach need to be African-American?
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playtyler
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Post by playtyler on Feb 1, 2023 12:02:51 GMT -5
Hoyatalk posters seem to have no memory of what actually happened. The obsession with blaming everything on JT Jr. here is beyond absurd. JT Jr. wanted Georgetown to be successful. He was OK with firing his own son if it meant a needed new direction for the program. So you think JT would have been super happy if they had gone out and hired Danny Hurley? Part of making JT "ok with the school firing his own son" was JT getting to choose the next coach and the next coach employing his other son. Which is why we should never have fired JT3 in 2017. JT III unfortunately had run his course. His pattern offense didn't work in the new era of college hoops. He has not been hired again. It was time to move on and even JT Jr. new it. Losing Tremont was the last straw. We tried to hire numerous other coaches. Smart, Mack, Brey, AMaker, Cooley, among others. JT Jr. was not involved in the process and would have been OK with any of those. JT Jr. didn't get to choose the next coach. He only reached out to Ewing once the process had gone so terribly. The process was run by Jack DeGioia. And it will be again...
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TC
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Post by TC on Feb 1, 2023 12:08:24 GMT -5
We tried to hire numerous other coaches. Smart, Mack, Brey, AMaker, Cooley, among others. I don't believe this and we never saw any evidence of it. Absolutely laughable. Another thing I don't believe. Don't believe this either. One of the posters on the board said early on the job was Ewing's if he wanted it. He was right. JT's book doesn't even make this claim - it pretty much suggests he reached out to Patrick early on, then advocated for him through the process. Don't believe this either.
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playtyler
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Post by playtyler on Feb 1, 2023 12:08:52 GMT -5
Hoyatalk posters seem to have no memory of what actually happened. The obsession with blaming everything on JT Jr. here is beyond absurd. JT Jr. wanted Georgetown to be successful. He was OK with firing his own son if it meant a needed new direction for the program. Two Decades? In 2015 we tied for second in the Big East. In 2013 we won the Big East Regular season. From 2005 to 2013 we were ranked in top 10 in the country at some point every season. In 2015 we had a great freshman class come in (Peak, White, COpeland). We beat Indiana in OT at MSG, beat a ranked Florida team in Atlantis and lost to number 2 ranked Wisconsin team 68-65 in Atlantis, lost to a great Kansas team 75-70 at home, beat number 4 ranked Villanova by 20 at home, and won an NCAA tournament game. That was not so terrible. Ronny did not pick Ewing (JD did). And while I agree that ROnny is probably toxic to the program and should not be involved in any way, he gets way too much blame for all of the problems. His boss (Ewing) and his boss' boss (JD) should shoulder all of the blame. As for how we ended up here. We tried other coaches. It is well documented. www.foxsports.com/stories/college-basketball/as-bungled-coaching-search-continues-georgetown-operates-with-no-plan Ewing was the default choice after an embarrassing search led to no other viable candidates. SO here we are. Not because JT Jr. manipulated a process where his own son was fired for the better of the program. Yes, JT Jr. was around to oversee the program he built from scratch. JT Jr. isn't here any more and he isn't to blame for what happened here. THere are only two people to blame here. Ewing and Jack DeGioia. To blame JT Jr. and Ronny for this mess is to see ghosts. The actual perpetrators walk around campus and are the highest paid employees of the University. The last process to replace the coach was embarrassing and we ended up with a terrible hire. Let's hope they have a better plan this time. I don’t have time to answer right now, but in the meantime: 1. Do you want next year’s coach to be Patrick Ewing or someone with connections to the Thompson family? 2. Does the next GU head coach need to be African-American? Responses 1. Patrick Ewing should have been never hired and should have been fired after each and every season that he has coached. He is a TERRIBLE coach and program killer. It has been apparent since the first game and EVERY game since. His extension is literally the worst contract in the history of college basketball (I defy anyone to challenge this). I don't care if the next coach has connections to the Thompson family. I want the next coach to be a great coach. 2. Per usual you bring your racist garbage into this. I don't think that is a consideration here (JT JR. didn't concern himself with this when he handpicked Esh to be his successor). WE need to pick the best coach to lead the program forward, taking into account all factors. And if it doesn't work out in a couple years, we need to fire this person and move on to another one, until we find the next great Georgetown coach. See my post above about how it took many programs multiple tries to find the right program builder (Arizona, ALabama, Rutgers, Marquette, etc.).
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playtyler
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Post by playtyler on Feb 1, 2023 12:29:57 GMT -5
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TC
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Post by TC on Feb 1, 2023 13:00:14 GMT -5
I think you're confused in terms of what constitutes "fact" - anonymously sourced reports like "Georgetown had interest in Chris Mack", which has been disputed does not really qualify as a fact. If you want to believe that Georgetown had interest in Chris Mack in 2017, that's up to you. It's a secretive process without a lot of markers. The last 3 coaching hires, we coincidentally landed on the person John Thompson wanted us to hire. Given the number of coaches that would be interested in a high profile job with job security that pays well in an attractive metropolitan area, that's either an enormous coincedence or someone exerted a lot of influence over the process during his post-coaching career.
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hoyasaxa2003
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 1, 2023 13:17:53 GMT -5
JT III unfortunately had run his course. His pattern offense didn't work in the new era of college hoops. He has not been hired again. It was time to move on and even JT Jr. new it. Losing Tremont was the last straw. We tried to hire numerous other coaches. Smart, Mack, Brey, AMaker, Cooley, among others. JT Jr. was not involved in the process and would have been OK with any of those. JT Jr. didn't get to choose the next coach. He only reached out to Ewing once the process had gone so terribly. The process was run by Jack DeGioia. And it will be again... I would like to know your sources. While there are definitely reports about these folks, what about anybody else? There is zero evidence Georgetown even attempted to interview anybody else, such as other up and comers, or even assistants. Why would a real search not bother to even interview Hurley? Obviously, Tom Crean bombed after leaving Indiana, but as of 2017 he had a record that would have at least warranted a look, and he said Georgetown wasn't interested. www.si.com/college/2017/04/02/georgetown-coaching-search-hoyas-thompsonThe subtext not included in the above is that whenever "politics" is mentioned it equals dealing with John Thompson. And this was particularly prescient:
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playtyler
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Post by playtyler on Feb 1, 2023 13:22:35 GMT -5
I think you're confused in terms of what constitutes "fact" - anonymously sourced reports like "Georgetown had interest in Chris Mack", which has been disputed does not really qualify as a fact. If you want to believe that Georgetown had interest in Chris Mack in 2017, that's up to you. It's a secretive process without a lot of markers. The last 3 coaching hires, we coincidentally landed on the person John Thompson wanted us to hire. Given the number of coaches that would be interested in a high profile job with job security that pays well in an attractive metropolitan area, that's either an enormous coincedence or someone exerted a lot of influence over the process during his post-coaching career. Where did Goodman on ESPN who reported on the Mack offer get the $4 million number from? I'll tell you. From the offer Georgetown made to Mack. Are you suggesting this didn't happen. And the offer to Brey, Smart, etc.? All untrue, even though reported on by multiple unrelated sources? I agree that JT JR. exerted some influence over the process. But you really have an agenda. If JT JR. was in charge of deciding who the coach was, we would not have fired his hand-picked successor or his son. Degioia hired ewing, gave him the extension and has delayed firing him. You saw his comments in London. "The program has, in one way or another, reported up to me since 1985, so, I have a deep, deep history with the program. I don’t oversee the day-to-day in my current role, but I get texts from Pat on a regular basis— including today. I’ve known him since he was 18 and it’s been beautiful, beautiful. No one has been working harder to turn this thing around than him. And if it can be done, I think he can do it. We have some work in front of us, but we put a good deal of support around him. If anyone deserves the benefit of our support, it’s Patrick Ewing, and I just hope everybody stays behind him as he does everything in his power to turn this around." Jack Degioia December 2022 after we were 5-6 in the "preseason".
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TC
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Post by TC on Feb 1, 2023 13:30:32 GMT -5
Where did Goodman on ESPN who reported on the Mack offer get the $4 million number from? I'll tell you. From the offer Georgetown made to Mack. Are you suggesting this didn't happen. Again, it's a secretive process, so nothing we say here are facts, but I doubt we made a $4M offer to Chris Mack. It wasn't even rumored we interviewed him.
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playtyler
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Post by playtyler on Feb 1, 2023 13:31:54 GMT -5
JT III unfortunately had run his course. His pattern offense didn't work in the new era of college hoops. He has not been hired again. It was time to move on and even JT Jr. new it. Losing Tremont was the last straw. We tried to hire numerous other coaches. Smart, Mack, Brey, AMaker, Cooley, among others. JT Jr. was not involved in the process and would have been OK with any of those. JT Jr. didn't get to choose the next coach. He only reached out to Ewing once the process had gone so terribly. The process was run by Jack DeGioia. And it will be again... I would like to know your sources. While there are definitely reports about these folks, what about anybody else? There is zero evidence Georgetown even attempted to interview anybody else, such as other up and comers, or even assistants. Why would a real search not bother to even interview Hurley? Obviously, Tom Crean bombed after leaving Indiana, but as of 2017 he had a record that would have at least warranted a look, and he said Georgetown wasn't interested. www.si.com/college/2017/04/02/georgetown-coaching-search-hoyas-thompsonThe subtext not included in the above is that whenever "politics" is mentioned it equals dealing with John Thompson. And this was particularly prescient: I don't disagree with your post or THamel's article at all. It was a terrible embarrassing process. I agree that JT JR. remained a towering figure and influence over the program that he created. I am just saying it is hard to say this was his process when it started with firing his son. And that there were multiple coaches approached (maybe only the ones listed in the Thamel article) who turned us down publicly and embarrassingly. I don't have evidence of others and agree there should have been others considered. The process was completely botched. I am just saying the blame for that should go to the person in charge ... Degioia.
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hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Feb 1, 2023 13:37:41 GMT -5
I would like to know your sources. While there are definitely reports about these folks, what about anybody else? There is zero evidence Georgetown even attempted to interview anybody else, such as other up and comers, or even assistants. Why would a real search not bother to even interview Hurley? Obviously, Tom Crean bombed after leaving Indiana, but as of 2017 he had a record that would have at least warranted a look, and he said Georgetown wasn't interested. www.si.com/college/2017/04/02/georgetown-coaching-search-hoyas-thompsonThe subtext not included in the above is that whenever "politics" is mentioned it equals dealing with John Thompson. And this was particularly prescient: I don't disagree with your post or THamel's article at all. It was a terrible embarrassing process. I agree that JT JR. remained a towering figure and influence over the program that he created. I am just saying it is hard to say this was his process when it started with firing his son. And that there were multiple coaches approached (maybe only the ones listed in the Thamel article) who turned us down publicly and embarrassingly. I don't have evidence of others and agree there should have been others considered. The process was completely botched. I am just saying the blame for that should go to the person in charge ... Degioia. While "firing his son" sounds on paper like something JT2 would have a problem with, if anybody observed JT3's lack of passion his last couple years (including his absence from recruiting events), JT3 walking away with a $9M severance for being fired is very much something JT2 and JT3 were just fine with. Particularly if that was followed by hiring Ewing which allowed the Thompson family gravy train to continue rolling at Georgetown, including the employment of Fredo.
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playtyler
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Post by playtyler on Feb 1, 2023 13:57:36 GMT -5
I don't disagree with your post or THamel's article at all. It was a terrible embarrassing process. I agree that JT JR. remained a towering figure and influence over the program that he created. I am just saying it is hard to say this was his process when it started with firing his son. And that there were multiple coaches approached (maybe only the ones listed in the Thamel article) who turned us down publicly and embarrassingly. I don't have evidence of others and agree there should have been others considered. The process was completely botched. I am just saying the blame for that should go to the person in charge ... Degioia. While "firing his son" sounds on paper like something JT2 would have a problem with, if anybody observed JT3's lack of passion his last couple years (including his absence from recruiting events), JT3 walking away with a $9M severance for being fired is very much something JT2 and JT3 were just fine with. Particularly if that was followed by hiring Ewing which allowed the Thompson family gravy train to continue rolling at Georgetown, including the employment of Fredo. Just so I understand what you are saying here. You are saying that JT3 getting fired with a severance "is very much something JT2 and JT3 were just fine with." Really? You don't think that was an embarrassment to both of them? You think they were happy with that outcome? Then you think the THompson's view of Georgetown was a "gravy train". Really? JT2 devoted his career and retirement to the success of Georgetown basketball. He had a vested interest and a legacy at stake. Your view, is that it was all about the money? About getting Ewing paid? And Ronny paid? Everyone wants their kids to have a job. SO maybe I could see hiring Ronny as a favor to JT2. But I am sure your take that everything was OK with JT2 because Ewing and ROnny were getting paid is absurdist reductionist garbage. JT2 wanted us to win. His legacy mattered to him. He had a vested interest in the success in Georgetown basketball.
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