hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,446
|
Post by hoyaboya on Apr 9, 2019 11:59:12 GMT -5
Probably a solid hire by UCLA. Cronin plays by the rules and gets the most out of his teams. Not sure how he'll fit in the cesspool of West Coast recruiting. But, UCLA will be hard nosed and a tough out most nights.
|
|
njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,772
|
Post by njhoya78 on Apr 9, 2019 11:59:33 GMT -5
In all seriousness, has JT3 even been on the radar for most of these jobs? I know they bandied his name about a bit at Vandy, probably due to the academic connection, but instead chose a total unknown wild card in Jerry Stackhouse. We talk alot about JT3 around here obviously because he's our former coach and the son of the program's architect, but it looks like he's pretty much a non-entity in the upper levels of college hoops. That says a lot more about what people think of him than opinions being thrown out on message boards. Clearly, ADs don't think very highly of him. Jerry Stackhouse may have been a wild-card to us on the outside, but he was a head coach in the NBA G-League...and Malcolm Turner, the athletic director at Vanderbilt, was the G-League president during Stackhouse's tenure. It doesn't look like Turner considered anyone else.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,771
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 9, 2019 12:12:54 GMT -5
So no doubt, 2016 and 2017 were terrible, but JT3 basically had 2 bad seasons and then got fired, 2 years off a 4 seed in the NCAA tournament. Yes, he was flawed, and would he have turned it around if given more time? Questionable, but the degree to which we had fallen is often exaggerated here because people got emotional over it, and clearly, still harbor a lot of resentment about it. It's nothing compared to what Meyer dealt with at DePaul, or even Mullin's record at St. Johns. There are some season by season parallels between JT III and Joey Meyer. He peaked in season three with a 28-3 record in 1986-87 (Georgetown was one of its two in-season losses), then had a pair of first weekend outs, a NIT bid, a pair of early NCAA exits. The move to the Great Midwest began a downward trend, and the move to C-USA sank the ship. Joey Meyer is not viewed with the same vitriol some Georgetown fans unfortunately give to JTIII, however. Maybe one NCAA win in 30 years tends to spread the blame around at DePaul, but extended poor results is more a function of institutional decisions and less about coaches. Georgetown fans are hesitant or unwilling to conclude that the school lost its focus in the 2010's while Villanova sprinted past them, and it's easier to put that blame on JTIII instead, but this may well be the story of this decade. It remains disheartening to go to the Big East and see Georgetown treated as a regular also-ran, with a figurative tap on the head, as if to say, "I'm sure you'll be better someday." Some years, you don't even see a Georgetown t-shirt at the MSG merchandising stands. That's where Georgetown, St. John's and DePaul are, and these schools have to start thinking about the 2020's and stop looking at the program through the rear view mirror, which is what St. John's had done for the past four years.
|
|
RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,134
|
Post by RBHoya on Apr 9, 2019 12:18:24 GMT -5
I am surprised he thought he could walk into a Power conference job without some rehab as an assistant or a HC at a lower level program. I agree with most of your post, but is there any real evidence to support this assumption being true? It seems to imply that he passed on opportunities for mid and low major jobs expecting that he'd be able to get, say, Vandy or Cal. But, I'm not really sure that's the case. He may well have had interest in a job like GW or St. Joes or even W&M but just wasn't the direction that those schools wanted to go in. I've always thought he wouldn't be able to immediately walk back into a high major job. Regardless of what you think of his time here, he's just not going to energize a fan base at a high major. You need to be able to sell hope when you make those hires, and JTIII is more like a known quantity. His strongest selling points--a Final 4 team 12 years ago, a 13ish year body of work at a high major with a solid overall record, and a clean track record with regards to recruiting or any other integrity issues--are nice, but they don't get anyone really excited. At least not at the high major level. If I'm in the CAA, then sure, it's a decent resume and maybe worth a shot that he can be consistently solid at my level even without the resources/exposure/conference affiliation to aid his recruiting. I think if he wants a head coaching job that's where it'll be. Finding a spot as an NBA assistant somewhere also could make some sense.
|
|
|
Post by badgerhoya on Apr 9, 2019 12:21:22 GMT -5
Wow. How the mighty have fallen.
|
|
LCPolo18
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,406
|
Post by LCPolo18 on Apr 9, 2019 12:24:54 GMT -5
In all seriousness, has JT3 even been on the radar for most of these jobs? I know they bandied his name about a bit at Vandy, probably due to the academic connection, but instead chose a total unknown wild card in Jerry Stackhouse. We talk alot about JT3 around here obviously because he's our former coach and the son of the program's architect, but it looks like he's pretty much a non-entity in the upper levels of college hoops. That says a lot more about what people think of him than opinions being thrown out on message boards. Clearly, ADs don't think very highly of him. I believe there were reports that he got an interview for the St. Joe's job. Not sure if he had any other interviews, but there was definitely a lot of smoke for the Vandy job.
|
|
SirSaxa
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 15,620
|
Post by SirSaxa on Apr 9, 2019 12:27:54 GMT -5
Here's a thought for JT3. Perhaps if/when all this "investigating" of shady programs shakes out, there might be a few big time basketball schools who suffer severe reputation tarnishment. Those schools would be in need of a major overhaul and a squeaky clean image. In a case like that - a school looking for a proven commodity, coaching competence and a long track record of success while playing by the rules.... JT3 might look pretty attractive.
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,446
|
Post by hoyaboya on Apr 9, 2019 12:30:26 GMT -5
In all seriousness, has JT3 even been on the radar for most of these jobs? I know they bandied his name about a bit at Vandy, probably due to the academic connection, but instead chose a total unknown wild card in Jerry Stackhouse. We talk alot about JT3 around here obviously because he's our former coach and the son of the program's architect, but it looks like he's pretty much a non-entity in the upper levels of college hoops. That says a lot more about what people think of him than opinions being thrown out on message boards. Clearly, ADs don't think very highly of him. I believe there were reports that he got an interview for the St. Joe's job. Not sure if he had any other interviews, but there was definitely a lot of smoke for the Vandy job. Only "report" I could find on St. Joe's was that there was contact, but not an interview: www.philly.com/college-sports/st-joes/st-joes-coach-search-billy-lange-jameer-nelson-phil-martelli-ncaa-basketball-20190326.html
|
|
|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 9, 2019 12:33:15 GMT -5
JT3's name has basically been in the pool for potential hiring for a month. To make any conclusions at this point is premature. At this point, with job openings still potentially opening up (like ASU, Cincinnati, etc.), coaches whose positioning is precarious (Wade), who knows what will happen.
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,446
|
Post by hoyaboya on Apr 9, 2019 12:38:12 GMT -5
JT3's name has basically been in the pool for potential hiring for a month. To make any conclusions at this point is premature. At this point, with job openings still potentially opening up (like ASU, Cincinnati, etc.), coaches whose positioning is precarious (Wade), who knows what will happen. Well it's clear that JT3 wasn't hired at any of the following that have already opened and closed: UCLA Vanderbilt Alabama Arkansas Texas A&M Virginia Tech Nebraska California I'm sure I'm missing some, but these are off the top of my head. Of these, JT3 was only mentioned as a potential option at Vanderbilt, in large part because he knows the Vandy AD well from his time at USA Basketball. And yet, that Vandy AD went with Jerry Stackhouse, a guy with practically no college basketball experience. JT3's name hasn't come up with any of these other schools. So, I think we can pretty safely conclude that Power 5 programs are not currently interested in JT3.
|
|
LCPolo18
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,406
|
Post by LCPolo18 on Apr 9, 2019 12:48:08 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 9, 2019 12:52:28 GMT -5
So, I think we can pretty safely conclude that Power 5 programs are not currently interested in JT3. I am not sure why you feel so strongly about proving this, but, okay.
|
|
guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,604
|
Post by guru on Apr 9, 2019 13:06:42 GMT -5
The revisionist history on JT3 is kind of silly. Even if you want to whine about the NCAA losses, I think it is indisputable that from 2005-2013, JT3's performance was easily sufficient to avoid anything remotely resembling firing. In fact, it was quite a good run over those 9 years: Sweet 16, Final Four, 7 NCAA bids (seeds of 7, 2, 2, 3, 6, 3, 2), one BET win, 2 BET finals, winning the regular season three times. There are very, very, very few coaches with that sort of record, even with the NCAA losses. So that leaves the last 4 years: 2014: 18-15, 8-10. Admittedly, a bad season, but not terrible. This is the year we were first out of the NCAA field, and likely would've been in without the DePaul BET loss. Very disappointing season, but it's hard to say this was a disastrous season. Despite the bad performance, we almost made the NCAA, made the NIT, and won a game. 2015: 22-11, 12-6, 4 seed. Won a game in the NCAA, before losing to 5 seed Utah (that was favored in the game). Given the 2014 team, this was a nice season. 2016: 15-19, 7-11. No doubt, a bad season, ranked 62 on KenPom. 2017: 14-18, 5-13. No doubt, really bad season. Ranked 69 on KenPom. So no doubt, 2016 and 2017 were terrible, but JT3 basically had 2 bad seasons and then got fired, 2 years off a 4 seed in the NCAA tournament. Yes, he was flawed, and would he have turned it around if given more time? Questionable, but the degree to which we had fallen is often exaggerated here because people got emotional over it, and clearly, still harbor a lot of resentment about it. It's nothing compared to what Meyer dealt with at DePaul, or even Mullin's record at St. Johns. Let me be clear. I am not trying to restart the argument over whether he should've been fired, but I do think the revisionist history about how far we had fallen is hyperbole. And I also think that's why people are overly negative about JT3's hiring prospects. I agree it could be tough for him to get a job, but people who see no reason why a school would hire him are being willfully blind to the entirety of his record. We had fallen far enough toward rock bottom that he was fired, and we are still trying to climb out of the ditch in which he left us. As for his next job, it’s clear your take on this - that he will definitely get a high major job when he wants one - is very flawed. If he wants to be a head coach again, he’s going to have to move down a rung or two. I think he fits better at a Patriot/Ivy type school anyway
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,446
|
Post by hoyaboya on Apr 9, 2019 13:10:36 GMT -5
My original point is that JT3 is currently not getting much consideration by high major programs. The only one where it appears that he might have had a shot was Vanderbilt, where he had a pre-existing relationship with the AD. And in that case, the AD went with Jerry Stackhouse, a completely unknown entity in college basketball. St. Joe's and GW are middling/bottom feeder Atlantic 10 programs. And both of those went with young up-and-coming guys after considering JT3. The premise that JT3 is going to get a high major job when he wants one just doesn't appear to be accurate. Not picking on you, so please don't take it that way - just responding to some posters who seem to live in a delusional land where JT3 has some sort of cache among strong basketball programs.
|
|
LCPolo18
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,406
|
Post by LCPolo18 on Apr 9, 2019 13:24:06 GMT -5
My original point is that JT3 is currently not getting much consideration by high major programs. The only one where it appears that he might have had a shot was Vanderbilt, where he had a pre-existing relationship with the AD. And in that case, the AD went with Jerry Stackhouse, a completely unknown entity in college basketball. St. Joe's and GW are middling/bottom feeder Atlantic 10 programs. And both of those went with young up-and-coming guys after considering JT3. The premise that JT3 is going to get a high major job when he wants one just doesn't appear to be accurate. Not picking on you, so please don't take it that way - just responding to some posters who seem to live in a delusional land where JT3 has some sort of cache among strong basketball programs. Got it. I guess I didn't understand your original question/point since it didn't mention high major, so I figured you meant any of the jobs mentioned in this thread.
|
|
|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 9, 2019 13:25:11 GMT -5
We had fallen far enough toward rock bottom that he was fired, and we are still trying to climb out of the ditch in which he left us. As for his next job, it’s clear your take on this - that he will definitely get a high major job when he wants one - is very flawed. If he wants to be a head coach again, he’s going to have to move down a rung or two. I think he fits better at a Patriot/Ivy type school anyway I never said JT3 would "definitely" get a high major job "when he wants one" - clearly it depends on what openings are available when. I do think his odds would have been better had he gotten back into the coaching pool right away, as the passage of time hurts. That said, I do think if he's patient he can get a high major job. You disagree, which is fine. If he tries to get one and doesn't get one, then I am wrong, and happy to admit I was wrong. I do think it's premature to declare, as hoyaboya did, that there's simply no interest. Would it be easier for him to get a mid-major type job? Surely. And, maybe it would be a better fit if he wants less pressure and doesn't mind the pay cut. On the first point, it's clear we define "rock bottom" differently, so we just disagree there.
|
|
Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,642
|
Post by Bigs"R"Us on Apr 9, 2019 13:58:28 GMT -5
High majors want to win as quickly as possible. Having a nice guy running the program is way down the list of priorities. It’s about generating alumni contributions. College hoops is a dirty business with shady characters.
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,446
|
Post by hoyaboya on Apr 9, 2019 14:12:54 GMT -5
My original point is that JT3 is currently not getting much consideration by high major programs. The only one where it appears that he might have had a shot was Vanderbilt, where he had a pre-existing relationship with the AD. And in that case, the AD went with Jerry Stackhouse, a completely unknown entity in college basketball. St. Joe's and GW are middling/bottom feeder Atlantic 10 programs. And both of those went with young up-and-coming guys after considering JT3. The premise that JT3 is going to get a high major job when he wants one just doesn't appear to be accurate. Not picking on you, so please don't take it that way - just responding to some posters who seem to live in a delusional land where JT3 has some sort of cache among strong basketball programs. Got it. I guess I didn't understand your original question/point since it didn't mention high major, so I figured you meant any of the jobs mentioned in this thread. You cited GW and St. Joe's - I was speaking about high majors, which GW and St. Joe's are not. Vanderbilt is a high major and he was considered in the mix for that one, based on his pre-existing relationship with the Vandy AD. Other than that, lots of high major openings, not many sniffs for JT3.
|
|
hoyas315
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,100
|
Post by hoyas315 on Apr 9, 2019 15:55:17 GMT -5
|
|
njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,772
|
Post by njhoya78 on Apr 9, 2019 16:03:18 GMT -5
|
|