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Post by LoudSoundOfREBOUND on Dec 2, 2021 23:01:46 GMT -5
You get an electric environment (and I would think a better presentation for recruits) by packing the house (or coming close). If you aren't doing that you need to either a) somehow get more people or b) shrink the "house.".I think so long as Georgetown plays at CapOne (which doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon), they need to become a team for the city rather than the school, figuratively of course. I don't think the school/alumni alone can be counted on to turn that arena into the venue we want it to be given midweek games on the other side of the city. The problem then lies with the team drawing any kind of local attention through either performance or promotion. As HoyaRejuveNation said, winning would solve a lot of these problems. In the meantime, I hope we can continue to draw recruits despite the poor turnout. Some interesting thoughts. Three questions: 1. Re: "a team for the city", what "city" are we referring to? The Georgetown crowd? The 100,000 new residents since 2000? The under-30 crowd living along the Green Line? Or just the older residents in Southeast? DC has changed a lot in the last two decades and I'm not sure Georgetown Basketball has the same touchpoint to DC residents in the past, and I would say the same about the Redskins. The most ardent fans in the area may be Caps fans, and that's not the regional demo Georgetown ever sought, notwithstanding that it has ties with Monumental to the Wizards and Capitals which would be optimal for cross-promotion. 2. Depending on how you count it, there are as many as 60,000 Georgetown alumni in the National Capital Region. What does Georgetown to engage these alumni? How many grads maintain enough engagement that they would actually buy tickets? If not, why not? 3. Local attention is not just performance or promotion, but connections. Georgetown's best attendance period was 2010-12, when GU could draw 10,000 to see Tulane or NC Asheville. Today, it wouldn't break 4,000. Georgetown had local talent that people knew about: Freeman, Wright, Vaughn, Clark, Starks, Benimon, etc. The only undergraduate on this team with more than a year in the local high school system is Victor Muresan, and no one is buying tickets to see him right now. After five years, Ewing and his staff just haven't connected with local prospects, and are more comfortable with signees from South Carolina and Georgia than the WCAC or the DCIAA. Thanks for the thoughts. I'll be the first to say I'm no marketing professional, so we wouldn't have to look far to find someone better versed on this than I am, but I'll take a crack at trying to answer. 1. I meant the DMV area with no specific demographic in mind. I really only meant this to emphasize that the team would have to better connect with the local market (the fans within) to supplement, if not outweigh student attendance. I would agree that Georgetown doesn't have the same connection now as it did in the past but I have to hope there is some way to rekindle that. Otherwise CapOne is a waste and the team may as well play at McDonough and accept whatever student turnout there happens to be. It'll probably be more based purely on convenience. 2. It starts with interest. Improved social media presence, local radio spots, cross-promotions as you mentioned. It seems like a cop out but winning (and consistently) would work wonders. 3. Local connections would definitely be a great way. I won't pretend to be an expert on local recruiting but I can't argue that for whatever reason Georgetown hasn't pulled as many local recruits whose family and friends would not only probably attend every game but be loud and passionate when they do. Maybe there is a way, through NIL or otherwise, to better promote the players we have and help them develop some local celebrity. I think showing some interest in developing your players' personal "brands" would work wonders with all recruits, local or otherwise and it would give the locals better familiarity with the players, encouraging them to cheer them on.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Dec 3, 2021 0:27:16 GMT -5
The product is not currently worth paying for. That’s why tickets have to be given away en masse. Social media and fan engagement aren’t going to help as much as winning.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 3, 2021 10:24:25 GMT -5
The product is not currently worth paying for. That’s why tickets have to be given away en masse. Social media and fan engagement aren’t going to help as much as winning. Exactly. Until we put out a product worth seeing, only the die-hards are going to go. In this day and age, when there are so many other options, and you can watch almost every game on TV in HD (though my cable provider gets FS2 in standard definition), not to mention COVID, you need to give people a compelling reason to go. People like winners. As I've said before on this board, there simply aren't enough die-hard fans to fill many seats. We need the more casual (some might say fair-weather) fans to fill the seats, but those people simply do not go when the team is bad. The other problem, I think is generational. The last set of students who saw the team when it was excellent were students in approximately the 2005-2013 time frame. The oldest of those alumni will be close to 40, the youngest closer to 30. That's prime age for those people to get married and have kids, and have zero time for things like going to games that are meaningless or that aren't competitive. And, alumni (and current students) in the 22-30ish range have barely seen a good team. If you don't put out a good product, people do not care, and will not go. I was a student at Georgetown from 1999-2003 during the Esherick years, and except for the Sweet 16 blip, the number of people who cared about Georgetown basketball in that era was very low. And while I wasn't on campus in the great basketball days of 2006-2008ish, I assume even then a high percentage of the student body didn't care. So, even if we have 60,000 alumni in the region, the "base" level of people who would even consider attending a basketball game is much smaller than that.
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conshyhoya
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Post by conshyhoya on Dec 3, 2021 11:08:29 GMT -5
The product is not currently worth paying for. That’s why tickets have to be given away en masse. Social media and fan engagement aren’t going to help as much as winning. Exactly. Until we put out a product worth seeing, only the die-hards are going to go. In this day and age, when there are so many other options, and you can watch almost every game on TV in HD (though my cable provider gets FS2 in standard definition), not to mention COVID, you need to give people a compelling reason to go. People like winners. As I've said before on this board, there simply aren't enough die-hard fans to fill many seats. We need the more casual (some might say fair-weather) fans to fill the seats, but those people simply do not go when the team is bad. The other problem, I think is generational. The last set of students who saw the team when it was excellent were students in approximately the 2005-2013 time frame. The oldest of those alumni will be close to 40, the youngest closer to 30. That's prime age for those people to get married and have kids, and have zero time for things like going to games that are meaningless or that aren't competitive. And, alumni (and current students) in the 22-30ish range have barely seen a good team. If you don't put out a good product, people do not care, and will not go. I was a student at Georgetown from 1999-2003 during the Esherick years, and except for the Sweet 16 blip, the number of people who cared about Georgetown basketball in that era was very low. And while I wasn't on campus in the great basketball days of 2006-2008ish, I assume even then a high percentage of the student body didn't care. So, even if we have 60,000 alumni in the region, the "base" level of people who would even consider attending a basketball game is much smaller than that. I would think as mentioned they need to play more on campus so it is easier for students. I would imagine kids would still go if they aren't great and even against lesser competition if it was more convenient. I live very close to Villanova and they play almost all their games on campus probably for that very reason. It is a complete pain to get to Wells Fargo and even the games I have gone to at Wells Fargo aren't sold out and they are always against good teams. I would bet even they would struggle to get a good attendance at Wells Fargo for a Tuesday night game even against the Big 5 Philadelphia teams yet alone a Longwood type team because it is not convenient even for most non-students. I would rather just watch it at my house. They play all of them on their on campus arena.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 3, 2021 11:12:29 GMT -5
Exactly. Until we put out a product worth seeing, only the die-hards are going to go. In this day and age, when there are so many other options, and you can watch almost every game on TV in HD (though my cable provider gets FS2 in standard definition), not to mention COVID, you need to give people a compelling reason to go. People like winners. As I've said before on this board, there simply aren't enough die-hard fans to fill many seats. We need the more casual (some might say fair-weather) fans to fill the seats, but those people simply do not go when the team is bad. The other problem, I think is generational. The last set of students who saw the team when it was excellent were students in approximately the 2005-2013 time frame. The oldest of those alumni will be close to 40, the youngest closer to 30. That's prime age for those people to get married and have kids, and have zero time for things like going to games that are meaningless or that aren't competitive. And, alumni (and current students) in the 22-30ish range have barely seen a good team. If you don't put out a good product, people do not care, and will not go. I was a student at Georgetown from 1999-2003 during the Esherick years, and except for the Sweet 16 blip, the number of people who cared about Georgetown basketball in that era was very low. And while I wasn't on campus in the great basketball days of 2006-2008ish, I assume even then a high percentage of the student body didn't care. So, even if we have 60,000 alumni in the region, the "base" level of people who would even consider attending a basketball game is much smaller than that. I would think as mentioned they need to play more on campus so it is easier for students. I would imagine kids would still go if they aren't great and even against lesser competition if it was more convenient. I live very close to Villanova and they play almost all their games on campus probably for that very reason. It is a complete pain to get to Wells Fargo and even the games I have gone to at Wells Fargo aren't sold out and they are always against good teams. I would bet even they would struggle to get a good attendance at Wells Fargo for a Tuesday night game even against the Big 5 Philadelphia teams yet alone a Longwood type team because it is not convenient even for most non-students. I would rather just watch it at my house. They play all of them on their on campus arena. Recruits aren't going to want to play in a gym smaller than their high school arenas. Also, it's not really as accessible to the poor or minorities as their is no Metro/subway to Georgetown.
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conshyhoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by conshyhoya on Dec 3, 2021 11:21:31 GMT -5
I would think as mentioned they need to play more on campus so it is easier for students. I would imagine kids would still go if they aren't great and even against lesser competition if it was more convenient. I live very close to Villanova and they play almost all their games on campus probably for that very reason. It is a complete pain to get to Wells Fargo and even the games I have gone to at Wells Fargo aren't sold out and they are always against good teams. I would bet even they would struggle to get a good attendance at Wells Fargo for a Tuesday night game even against the Big 5 Philadelphia teams yet alone a Longwood type team because it is not convenient even for most non-students. I would rather just watch it at my house. They play all of them on their on campus arena. Recruits aren't going to want to play in a gym smaller than their high school arenas. Also, it's not really as accessible to the poor or minorities as their is no Metro/subway to Georgetown. So recruits would rather play in an empty gym? The second part is understandable so I'm not sure how to solve that problem outside of start winning and then maybe students and casual fans will go to games at Cap One. I still doubt even if we were the number 1 team in the country you get a huge draw for Longwood at Cap One. I am a die hard and haven't missed watching a game since they have been all on TV (I even bought ESPN+ to see the Oklahoma State game a few years ago when it was on there) and I would just watch it on TV unless I lived right there.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 3, 2021 11:24:44 GMT -5
Recruits aren't going to want to play in a gym smaller than their high school arenas. Also, it's not really as accessible to the poor or minorities as their is no Metro/subway to Georgetown. So recruits would rather play in an empty gym? The second part is understandable so I'm not sure how to solve that problem outside of start winning and then maybe students and casual fans will go to games at Cap One. I still doubt even if we were the number 1 team in the country you get a huge draw for Longwood at Cap One. I am a die hard and haven't missed watching a game since they have been all on TV (I even bought ESPN+ to see the Oklahoma State game a few years ago when it was on there) and I would just watch it one TV unless I lived right there. NBA arena with NBA style lockerrooms is preferable to playing in a small dumpy gym that is less up to date and smaller than alot of high school gyms. So still a selling points regardless of how packed arena is.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 3, 2021 11:28:16 GMT -5
The real problem is that a middle ground is the ideal but it doesn't exist - something in the order of 7,000-8,000 that is convenient. The 2000-era McDonough renovation plan would be perfect (though still a bit small) for these OOC games that draw such small crowds. But, McDonough clearly isn't up to the level it should be at to host games (nor is the capacity large enough for bigger games), and Capital One will always be too big. So, we are stuck with choosing the best of what is available.
While the Thompson Center is great and was necessary to stay competitive, as a result of that (and many other things), I don't think there is an appetite to spend more money on a McDonough renovation, and especially without a winning team it'll never happen. So, we are probably stuck with Capital One.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 3, 2021 11:38:37 GMT -5
The real problem is that a middle ground is the ideal but it doesn't exist - something in the order of 7,000-8,000 that is convenient. The 2000-era McDonough renovation plan would be perfect (though still a bit small) for these OOC games that draw such small crowds. But, McDonough clearly isn't up to the level it should be at to host games (nor is the capacity large enough for bigger games), and Capital One will always be too big. So, we are stuck with choosing the best of what is available. While the Thompson Center is great and was necessary to stay competitive, as a result of that (and many other things), I don't think there is an appetite to spend more money on a McDonough renovation, and especially without a winning team it'll never happen. So, we are probably stuck with Capital One. It's by design for the area/neighborhood but the public accessibility issue is also a problem if games are to be hosted on campus.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Dec 3, 2021 11:44:35 GMT -5
The real problem is that a middle ground is the ideal but it doesn't exist - something in the order of 7,000-8,000 that is convenient. The 2000-era McDonough renovation plan would be perfect (though still a bit small) for these OOC games that draw such small crowds. But, McDonough clearly isn't up to the level it should be at to host games (nor is the capacity large enough for bigger games), and Capital One will always be too big. So, we are stuck with choosing the best of what is available. By accident or by design, the Washington area never created other large public arena options to offload event business when the main arena was full. The New York area now has MSG, Prudential Center, Barclays Center, and UBS Arena (where St. John's plays Kansas tonight). Greater LA has Staples Center, Honda Arena, Long Beach Arena and the new Clippers arena coming to Hollywood Park. Chicago has United Center and Allstate Arena. But if you don't play at Capital One Arena, you're back on campus, or someone else's campus. That's why Leonsis & Co. can demand the contracts they do.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Dec 3, 2021 12:28:41 GMT -5
The real problem is that a middle ground is the ideal but it doesn't exist - something in the order of 7,000-8,000 that is convenient. The 2000-era McDonough renovation plan would be perfect (though still a bit small) for these OOC games that draw such small crowds. But, McDonough clearly isn't up to the level it should be at to host games (nor is the capacity large enough for bigger games), and Capital One will always be too big. So, we are stuck with choosing the best of what is available. While the Thompson Center is great and was necessary to stay competitive, as a result of that (and many other things), I don't think there is an appetite to spend more money on a McDonough renovation, and especially without a winning team it'll never happen. So, we are probably stuck with Capital One. It's by design for the area/neighborhood but the public accessibility issue is also a problem if games are to be hosted on campus. In a perfect world the university would have a slightly larger, (4,000-6,000) seat renovated on-campus McDonough arena. It would not only be for some of these OOC mens basketball games that the students won't go the Cap One Center for now. The school could host some other events/concerts and other school related functions. That is currently an issue at the school now. Even graduation, in bad weather, is an issue now. I think Villanova just recently renovated their on campus arena and St John's I think did something similar over the last 5 -6 years The biggest obstacles to that now happening now are 1) funding and 2) neighborhood/traffic/parking issues. If it became a priority for the administration I think they could overcome the funding issue within a few years. I am not sure the Georgetown neighborhood is ever going to allow the school to build something that would significantly increase the traffic and parking issue in that area. In order to overcome that issue they would need to somehow work out some type of shuttle system to get people to the games, which would be inconvenient for those fans, who don't live on campus or in the neighborhood. With the amount of school work and other available social activities available to current students, I am not surprised that the students don't make the trek to Cap One Center for a mid week game against OOC schools that many of them have never heard of before. The turnout would be much better for students if it only involved walking across campus and taking up only about 2-3 hours of their night. If they could make the on-campus arena a fun game experience then it would attract more students, who may not be basketball fans but are just looking for a fun and easy social event. A lot of people have beat this drum for a long time, and nothing has happened, so I would not expect the situation to improve in the near future.
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Post by professorhoya on Dec 3, 2021 12:33:31 GMT -5
It's by design for the area/neighborhood but the public accessibility issue is also a problem if games are to be hosted on campus. In a perfect world the university would have a slightly larger, (4,000-6,000) seat renovated on-campus McDonough arena. It would not only be for some of these OOC mens basketball games that the students won't go the Cap One Center for now. The school could host some other events/concerts and other school related functions. That is currently an issue at the school now. Even graduation, in bad weather, is an issue now. I think Villanova just recently renovated their on campus arena and St John's I think did something similar over the last 5 -6 years The biggest obstacles to that now happening now are 1) funding and 2) neighborhood/traffic/parking issues. If it became a priority for the administration I think they could overcome the funding issue within a few years. I am not sure the Georgetown neighborhood is ever going to allow the school to build something that would significantly increase the traffic and parking issue in that area. In order to overcome that issue they would need to somehow work out some type of shuttle system to get people to the games, which would be inconvenient for those fans, who don't live on campus or in the neighborhood. With the amount of school work and other available social activities available to current students, I am not surprised that the students don't make the trek to Cap One Center for a mid week game against OOC schools that many of them have never heard of before. The turnout would be much better for students if it only involved walking across campus and taking up only about 2-3 hours of their night. If they could make the on-campus arena a fun game experience then it would attract more students, who may not be basketball fans but are just looking for a fun and easy social event. A lot of people have beat this drum for a long time, and nothing has happened, so I would not expect the situation to improve in the near future. Bear minimum you would have to have metro access and upgrading parking. the most realistic alternative (which would still cost alot of money) might be to build a multiuse arena in Rosslyn. Maybe buy the Key Bridge Marriott and put it there.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Dec 3, 2021 13:43:53 GMT -5
Bear minimum you would have to have metro access and upgrading parking. the most realistic alternative (which would still cost alot of money) might be to build a multiuse arena in Rosslyn. Maybe buy the Key Bridge Marriott and put it there. I always thought that the Key Bridge Marriott area could be a good compromise location. At least on that specific location, it will never happen, as that site is undergoing significant development: www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2020/03/25/rosslyns-key-bridge-marriott-will-soon-see-a-full.htmlThis is one of those times where you wish Georgetown's campus were a bit bigger and/or had room for more expansion and better access to highways, etc. In any event, even if we had room, there is likely no way the town government/boards would allow it anyway.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Dec 3, 2021 14:25:38 GMT -5
Bear minimum you would have to have metro access and upgrading parking. the most realistic alternative (which would still cost alot of money) might be to build a multiuse arena in Rosslyn. Maybe buy the Key Bridge Marriott and put it there. I always thought that the Key Bridge Marriott area could be a good compromise location. At least on that specific location, it will never happen, as that site is undergoing significant development: www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2020/03/25/rosslyns-key-bridge-marriott-will-soon-see-a-full.htmlThis is one of those times where you wish Georgetown's campus were a bit bigger and/or had room for more expansion and better access to highways, etc. In any event, even if we had room, there is likely no way the town government/boards would allow it anyway. The Key Bridge Marriott property is an interesting location. I would not put an arena there. If the school had a chance (and the resources) to purchase that property I would instead put a parking garage and some administrative offices for the school there. That would be a perfect location to set up a shuttle bus back and forth to the school if they renovated McDonough for larger crowds to attend games. That would be convenient for fans coming to the games and still keep the games on the actual campus. Interesting concept, but highly unlikely!!!
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