deacon
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,850
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Post by deacon on Apr 3, 2017 10:55:43 GMT -5
Playing the race card?
Yeah, I'm out. Y'all have fun.
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smokeyjack
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,300
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Post by smokeyjack on Apr 3, 2017 10:58:11 GMT -5
Alternatively, if this was, say, JWall with the exact same resume as Patrick Ewing (ie 15 years as an NBA assistant, head of the NBAPA, etc.), would people feel differently? You'd still have the "program insider" problem, of course (which is a legitimate complaint), but how much of the other complaints are about his playing position and about the cultural perception of Ewing's intelligence? Ewing has always been seen and portrayed as the dumb lumbering big guy in our popular culture. How much of the concern about his coaching skills is based on that? It seems to me that Clifford wouldn't be keeping Ewing around as a favor, or because he's a big name. For what it's worth, I see Ewing's position as a positive. In theory, if we are going to go down this road, he at least has one clear strength -- a demonstrated ability to work with and develop elite level forwards and centers. His playing career as probably the best center to play the game only enhances that appeal. Whereas everyone else in the college game is targeted toward guards, I see Ewing in theory being able to go after all the top interior players in the college game. That makes more sense to me than hiring a guard to hire a guard. Also, though I think it has been seriously exaggerated, there is at least a chance that Ewing has been overlooked by the NBA, so we could have an underrated talent type situation. My stance on Ewing is not changed. At all. But I think his position at least equips him with a theoretical recruiting advantage that he can use. I could see him beating K or Calipari for a center based on his record, at least early on. Come on man. Russell, Wilt, Kareem...big drop...Hakeem, Shaq...another drop...Pat, Robinson, Unseld, Reed, Mikan, Moses, etc... Some would argue Patrick belongs on that second rung; nobody would argue he belongs with those first three.
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Post by iheartdurenbros on Apr 3, 2017 10:59:00 GMT -5
That said, here's what really scares me. I spoke over the weekend to a high school coach who coached one of our best players of the last decade - happened to be at the same event with him, and coaching change talk eventually led to the Georgetown job. He has seen and heard first-hand from his former player the influence JT Jr. has on the program, and it is far more pervasive than I ever knew. Maybe others knew all this, I dunno. According to him, Big John doesn't just sit at practice and watch - he screams and directs the players constantly, often telling them contradictory things to what the head coach has just told them. It was not uncommon for JT Jr. to come to the locker room at halftime of games and scream at the team for so long that JT3 never even got to address them. The player's quote was "I don't know who to listen to." This coach loves JT3. Loves him. But here's the part I found most fascinating: He thinks JT3 is the most relieved person in this whole situation, that the burden of coaching his dad's program, and the absurdity of the way it was/is being run, had worn him down. His take was that, even though he would never have asked for it, JT3 is not unhappy to be out. I raised questions upthread about how intimately Jr. will be involved in program. It is inconceivable to me that Ewing will allow Jr to be that involved. Yeah, he cannot attend daily practices any more. And, Ewing who is genuinely respected by Jr. would seem to be the one to tell him that it is inappropriate. Regardless, this is a big question moving forward and it should be raised. I would think that Ewing Jr. might have some insight into those problems so that our presumed coach knows what to do. But, Jr. simply cannot be present every day or even have daily conversations with him. The separation must begin now. But, hell, I never imagined Jr. yelled at them at half time. Sheesh. That may explain some things. I have long suspected that JT3 is probably going to feel relieved and that he can accept this outcome far more easily than his father. Certainly he will go away quietly. His father apparently will not. The next coaching search cannot be shaped by his presence. I suppose this is my take: others seem convinced that Ewing will cower to Jr. I am assuming he will be independent, simply because he has been. Maybe he wouldn't take the job unless he knew he could change things too.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Apr 3, 2017 10:59:18 GMT -5
My take on Ewing: I would profoundly (and probably naively) hope that while his Hoya background would be a consideration, an interview would involve detailed questions and answers about his plans and his visions for all aspects of this program going forward, from recruiting and strength/conditioning, to game and practice strategy, to academics and public relations, and that any decision is based (almost) entirely on the responses. I know that many here are convinced that this would not be the case. Maybe they are right. I would hope that paying the money for a search company, not to mention having Tagliabue heading up the search, was not just a smokescreen to deflect criticism, but an honest effort to hire the best interested candidate.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Apr 3, 2017 11:05:19 GMT -5
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Post by jld54 on Apr 3, 2017 11:10:08 GMT -5
It's a fait accompli. The leaks are meant to seal the deal. After being turned down many times for head coaching jobs in the NBA you can't imagine Georgetown would deny him the opportunity at this point. That is no way to treat a Hoya legend. So now Big John has had three bites at the apple. His long time assistant, his son, and the man who he considers to be a son. Nearly 20 years removed from being the head coach of this team, JT Jr. still holds sway over the program. I think the Thompson sycophants can have their day now. You may see a small bump in ticket sales the first year. Then after three years of mediocre basketball we will face the same reality. The game has changed and Georgetown Basketball has failed to change with it. I don't know if Pat is a master tactician or not. I have a hard time seeing his 55 year old 7 foot frame flying all over the country on United trying to close the deal with recruits. For me the big slap in the face is the way they ran this search. This is a bait and switch for supporters of the program. They knew all along this would be Patrick's job. Just like last time they knew the job would go to JTIII. I am going to save a lot of time and money over the next three years not going to Georgetown games, not giving to the Hoya Hoops Club and not checking this damn board. I'll be back in 2021 when a new head coach is named and the administration finally breaks Big John's strangle hold on the program. After five years of not making the tournament I think it may finally be time for bold leadership. Sorry it had to end this way. If Pat gets the job and rebuilds the current wreck in 2-3 years, gets us into the NCAAs regularly, and in the top 3-4 in the BE, you will not follow the program? Nonsense.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Apr 3, 2017 11:17:25 GMT -5
My take on Ewing: I would profoundly (and probably naively) hope that while his Hoya background would be a consideration, an interview would involve detailed questions and answers about his plans and his visions for all aspects of this program going forward, from recruiting and strength/conditioning, to game and practice strategy, to academics and public relations, and that any decision is based (almost) entirely on the responses. I know that many here are convinced that this would not be the case. Maybe they are right. I would hope that paying the money for a search company, not to mention having Tagliabue heading up the search, was not just a smokescreen to deflect criticism, but an honest effort to hire the best interested candidate. I hope for this too, although I think there is some validity to the point being made that this is a done deal because would we bring Patrick in for a formal interview (widely reported in the press) and then not offer him the job (potentially embarrassing him and hurting his chances - even if only slightly - to land a HC job in the future)? I dont know, of course, but that seems like a fair concern to me. One question on the assistant coach comp issues - am I correct in remembering that there are some limitations on how much you can pay certain assistants? Maybe not, but I vaguely remember reading about that at some point.
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Post by 8791hoyanc on Apr 3, 2017 11:22:29 GMT -5
Someone earlier hit the nail on the head. Two camps: Thompson legacy camp and non-Thompson clean break camp. I think one reason that the clean break camp (I'm one of them) are disappointed that it looks like Ewing is going to get the job is that with anyone else a new direction is almost guaranteed and at least certainly more likely than not to happen, but with Ewing it is very much unknown and presumably going to be more of the same. And with respect to a "new direction" I'm not talking about the culture of the program. I am talking about recruiting better players, recruiting the right players, coaching them the right way, and most importantly modernizing the type of basketball played at Georgetown. I just think that new direction is perceived to be more likely to happen by the clean break camp if they get their choice. I do hope that if Ewing is the new coach he will at least bring a new style of play to Georgetown. And it can't be solely a focus on big men - for example Shaq didn't win any NCAA championships. In my opinion, if Ewing brings an up tempo style of play and makes the game exciting for players and fans he will eventually get the wins.
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,303
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 3, 2017 11:24:53 GMT -5
I have my reservations as to whether Ewing will be able to recruit and adjust from the NBA to the college game. Make no mistakes, those are serious risks. But I believe they are largely outweighed by the potential upside. It is hard to imagine another candidate with the same depth and breadth of exposure to some of the biggest legends in the history of the game.
Think about the great coaches Patrick has played or coached with throughout his youth, college, NBA and team USA experiences: Leo Papille, Mike Jarvis, John Thompson Jr., Bob Knight, George Raveling, Don Donoher, C.M. Newton, Hubie Brown, Rick Pitino, Pat Riley, Chuck Daly, Mike Krzyzewski, PJ Carlesimo, Lenny Wilkins, Don Nelson, Jeff Van Gundy, Doc Rivers, Doug Collins, Stan Van Gundy, and Steve Clifford.
Or the teammates he's played with like Rod Strickland, Mark Jackson, Anthony Mason, Bernard King, Charles Oakley, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Magic Johnson, Clyde Drexler, John Stockton, Larry Bird, David Robinson, Scottie Pippen, and Michael Jordan.
Or the players he's coached like Tyronn Lue, Jerry Stackhouse, Yao Ming, Mark Jackson, Tracy McGrady, Dwight Howard, JJ Redick, Jameer Nelson, Vince Carter, Martin Gortat, Jason Richardson, Glen Davis, Al Harrington, Cody Zeller, Al Jefferson, Kemba Walker, Lance Stephenson, Noah Vonleh, and Jeremy Lamb.
Fact is, there are very, very few people out there with a basketball network anything close to that. There are even fewer with such strong Georgetown bloodlines. When you add in the fact that from all accounts Patrick has a sharp basketball mind, is well-regarded from an Xs and Os perspective, is keenly aware that recruiting will be his biggest challenge, has a reputation for working hard and always striving to improve, and known for connecting well with teammates and players, it seems like it is well worth the risk.
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,303
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 3, 2017 11:28:11 GMT -5
Just curious but would people feel differently if Ewing had landed the King's or the Grizzlies' head coach job last summer? Alternatively, if this was, say, JWall with the exact same resume as Patrick Ewing (ie 15 years as an NBA assistant, head of the NBAPA, etc.), would people feel differently? You'd still have the "program insider" problem, of course (which is a legitimate complaint), but how much of the other complaints are about his playing position and about the cultural perception of Ewing's intelligence? Ewing has always been seen and portrayed as the dumb lumbering big guy in our popular culture. How much of the concern about his coaching skills is based on that? It seems to me that Clifford wouldn't be keeping Ewing around as a favor, or because he's a big name. Clifford and Ewing were assistant coaches together in Orlando. The fact that Clifford brought Ewing over to Charlotte as an Associate Head Coach says a lot. Edit - I just realized they were also assistants in Houston together.
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Post by practice on Apr 3, 2017 11:30:21 GMT -5
It's a fait accompli. The leaks are meant to seal the deal. After being turned down many times for head coaching jobs in the NBA you can't imagine Georgetown would deny him the opportunity at this point. That is no way to treat a Hoya legend. So now Big John has had three bites at the apple. His long time assistant, his son, and the man who he considers to be a son. Nearly 20 years removed from being the head coach of this team, JT Jr. still holds sway over the program. I think the Thompson sycophants can have their day now. You may see a small bump in ticket sales the first year. Then after three years of mediocre basketball we will face the same reality. The game has changed and Georgetown Basketball has failed to change with it. I don't know if Pat is a master tactician or not. I have a hard time seeing his 55 year old 7 foot frame flying all over the country on United trying to close the deal with recruits. For me the big slap in the face is the way they ran this search. This is a bait and switch for supporters of the program. They knew all along this would be Patrick's job. Just like last time they knew the job would go to JTIII. I am going to save a lot of time and money over the next three years not going to Georgetown games, not giving to the Hoya Hoops Club and not checking this damn board. I'll be back in 2021 when a new head coach is named and the administration finally breaks Big John's strangle hold on the program. After five years of not making the tournament I think it may finally be time for bold leadership. Sorry it had to end this way. If Pat gets the job and rebuilds the current wreck in 2-3 years, gets us into the NCAAs regularly, and in the top 3-4 in the BE, you will not follow the program? Nonsense. The predictions that take place on this site would put Nostradamus to shame. Let's give the guy a chance (should he get the job.). He flies around the country now! Have you seen a NBA schedule? It's a certainty that he'll be spectacular? Of course not ... but likewise your scenario is just as likely/unlikely to happen. I'm getting excited that Ewing will actually be able to recruit. He's been coached by incredible defensive and some good offensive minds. Chances are that Georgetown is going to play a much different style of basketball ... hopefully one that will bring in top talent. Let's keep positive.
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paranoia2
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 847
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Post by paranoia2 on Apr 3, 2017 11:30:28 GMT -5
It is my OPINION JT 3 lost some FIRE after his wife had a medical scare. JT II wasn't messing up the program before then so why would he have been screwing it up after? Both JT II and Patrick are iconic figures in college basketball and should be revered.
Patrick w restore order and put the program on a path to CHAMPIONSHIPS.
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Post by 8791hoyanc on Apr 3, 2017 11:36:06 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see where the other potential candidates land (if anywhere) and how successful they become, compared to whoever we ultimately end up hiring. Crean especially will be one to watch.
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Post by Churchwell on Apr 3, 2017 11:36:28 GMT -5
Agreed - I think hiring Ewing is risky - but only because of the potential to tarnish his Georgetown legacy. But we have already stared down this barrel with JTIII and I doubt it can be much more of a circus than this. There will be a clean break from the Thompson's regardless of how the Ewing era works out. It's just a question of whether it's 3 years from now or 10+.
Ewing has a true basketball pedigree, and if we were talking about Tim Duncan with a similar resume (after 15 years as an NBA assistant) I just can't imagine there being this much hand-wringing. As for JT2's involvement in the program, no way he feels as comfortable screaming at kids during halftime if his son isn't coaching. I'm sure Ewing respects JT2, but he is a grown a** man and a HOFer who has been out of college for almost 30 years. I bet he learned how to manage Big John long ago.
One positive I don't feel like I've read yet (and forgive me if I just missed it...128 pages...), Patrick Ewing is a father, whose son went through the AAU and college recruiting process not too long ago. He also had to wrestle with the decision to transfer from one big name program to another. I like that Ewing can sit in the living room with a kid's parents and relate to that experience.
Ewing may be a bust...but there is that risk with any coach we hire. But he also might be exactly what this program needs right now. Given the alternatives we are left with, I'm getting on that train and will allow myself to get excited about it. One thing is for certain, a Ewing at the helm of GU will generate a lot of press coverage. Here's hoping he learned how to handle that frenzy, and if anything these past few weeks have shown that Georgetown is still pretty relevant.
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Post by 8791hoyanc on Apr 3, 2017 11:36:57 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see where the other potential candidates land (if anywhere) and how successful they become, compared to whoever we ultimately end up hiring. Crean especially will be one to watch. ie will we be kicking ourselves in a few years and if so, how hard...
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BigmanU
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 915
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Post by BigmanU on Apr 3, 2017 11:37:42 GMT -5
What is everyone in the Non-Ewing camp so scared of?
He has the coaching acumen and apparently the drive. Don't think for one instance, he doesn't have ideas bottled up ready to use if he gets his own gig.
Ewing will bring back that old fire that has been missing.
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kettlehill
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,149
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Post by kettlehill on Apr 3, 2017 11:40:57 GMT -5
I am not opposed to Patrick , I am resigned to him. Not in my top 3 or 4 but those are not going to happen. Pat has a lot of supporters and admirers in the game and that is encouraging, but what is most encouraging is his fierce determination, his work ethic. If he is indeed seeking out high level assistants, a very good sign. At this point this MUST happen or we will have embarrassed both Patrick and the Program-even more. I have loved and admired JT2 for a long, long time. This man needs to let go. The "search" was a sham.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 3, 2017 11:51:04 GMT -5
www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/19063479/patrick-ewing-meet-georgetown-hoyas-officials-head-coach-vacancyListen to the audio accompanying this article - Wilbon totally rips our search, and confirms some of the things Thamel said about this search being the talk of the town at the Final Four. - "If you're going to fire John Thompson III, don't you have someone in mind? ... They don't seem to have thought of that, and I'm stunned." - "I don't know what they're doing. I think they're delusional in some ways." - "If they're not careful, they're going to be DePaul. And DePaul was a place that went through this." - "You have to be really realistic about what you've got." He also said he was stunned that they fired JT3 and thought it was wrong.
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madgesiq92
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,384
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Post by madgesiq92 on Apr 3, 2017 11:55:36 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see where the other potential candidates land (if anywhere) and how successful they become, compared to whoever we ultimately end up hiring. Crean especially will be one to watch. We have a chance to go through this exercise retrospectively by comparing the eight years of the Board Favorite candidate in 2004 (clearly Johnny Dawkins) with the first 8 years of the "Thompson Candidate" in III. That one worked out pretty well for us.
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CTHoya08
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Bring back Izzo!
Posts: 2,870
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Post by CTHoya08 on Apr 3, 2017 12:00:06 GMT -5
Agreed - I think hiring Ewing is risky - but only because of the potential to tarnish his Georgetown legacy. But we have already stared down this barrel with JTIII and I doubt it can be much more of a circus than this. There will be a clean break from the Thompson's regardless of how the Ewing era works out. It's just a question of whether it's 3 years from now or 10+. Ewing has a true basketball pedigree, and if we were talking about Tim Duncan with a similar resume (after 15 years as an NBA assistant) I just can't imagine there being this much hand-wringing. As for JT2's involvement in the program, no way he feels as comfortable screaming at kids during halftime if his son isn't coaching. I'm sure Ewing respects JT2, but he is a grown a** man and a HOFer who has been out of college for almost 30 years. I bet he learned how to manage Big John long ago. One positive I don't feel like I've read yet (and forgive me if I just missed it...128 pages...), Patrick Ewing is a father, whose son went through the AAU and college recruiting process not too long ago. He also had to wrestle with the decision to transfer from one big name program to another. I like that Ewing can sit in the living room with a kid's parents and relate to that experience. Ewing may be a bust...but there is that risk with any coach we hire. But he also might be exactly what this program needs right now. Given the alternatives we are left with, I'm getting on that train and will allow myself to get excited about it. One thing is for certain, a Ewing at the helm of GU will generate a lot of press coverage. Here's hoping he learned how to handle that frenzy, and if anything these past few weeks have shown that Georgetown is still pretty relevant. His son went through that process fifteen years ago. There are arguments to be made about his ability to recruit. The fact that his son once went through that process isn't one of them.
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