hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,818
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Post by hoyazeke on Feb 23, 2017 9:00:02 GMT -5
Let's see...We are down by 1 to Maryland with 4 seconds left. Our best ball handler, dribble penetrator and scorer in bounds the ball to a kid who is playing his second college basketball game. The kid drives down court and get stuffed. DePaul meanwhile has their best scorer in bound the ball to a guy who gets it back to him, drives unstopped down court where he is fouled with .2 seconds left. Kinda says it all doesn't it? Yeah, you'll never convince me that it's more complicated than this. For all our flaws, we've lost every close game because of dumb play calling. If people don't think that's about coaching, I don't know what to tell you. I can't totally agree with this statement. JT3 drew a play that got the teams 2nd best 3pt shooter a wide open top of the key shot. Jessie shoots an airball. That play isn't on JT3. The culture of losing is on JT3...
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lurkerhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,182
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Post by lurkerhoya on Feb 23, 2017 9:10:55 GMT -5
Let's see...We are down by 1 to Maryland with 4 seconds left. Our best ball handler, dribble penetrator and scorer in bounds the ball to a kid who is playing his second college basketball game. The kid drives down court and get stuffed. DePaul meanwhile has their best scorer in bound the ball to a guy who gets it back to him, drives unstopped down court where he is fouled with .2 seconds left. Kinda says it all doesn't it? Yeah, you'll never convince me that it's more complicated than this. For all our flaws, we've lost every close game because of dumb play calling. If people don't think that's about coaching, I don't know what to tell you. In the same vein, when can you remember a Hoya player in post-game talk about a great play JT3 drew up? Unscientifically, but at least anecdotally for sure from last night, JT3-drawn-up plays result in turnovers, offensive fouls, or rushed shots at the end of the clock well over 50% of the time in my memory. It's one thing to draw up a play out of a timeout and, crap, good look, just didn't go down. That is a rarity basically since Hollis' 3 against Alabama to my recollection. There come's a point when a number of scenarios become apparent, just from the snippet of the overwhelming number of empty possessions in these situations, and unfortunately they all fall on JT3: 1. Players haven't practiced the concepts of these drawn up plays and aren't in a position to execute 2. JT3 doesn't have a fundamental understanding of player's strengths and weaknesses to know what plays can even be drawn up 3. JT3 hasn't come up with something that a) the players understand and can execute and b) the other teams aren't expecting or can be exploited Like Jook said, it really is that simple in a nutshell. It's transcended seasons, recruiting classes and graduating classes at this point, so it's not on the players.
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lurkerhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,182
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Post by lurkerhoya on Feb 23, 2017 9:12:58 GMT -5
Yeah, you'll never convince me that it's more complicated than this. For all our flaws, we've lost every close game because of dumb play calling. If people don't think that's about coaching, I don't know what to tell you. I can't totally agree with this statement. JT3 drew a play that got the teams 2nd best 3pt shooter a wide open top of the key shot. Jessie shoots an airball. That play isn't on JT3. The culture of losing is on JT3... No offense, but if you think a three from Jesse Govan in a tie game with 23 seconds to operate is a good shot, I've got a bridge to sell you...
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,777
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 23, 2017 9:15:15 GMT -5
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Feb 23, 2017 9:25:21 GMT -5
The saddest part of last night's game is that it gave some the opportunity to denigrate someone I believe to be a good man and a good representative of the university. A big part of the blame goes to the coach, himself, who has proven to be stubborn and inflexible in his approach to the game and failed until lately to adapt to the changing environment in college basketball. Nevertheless, it is unfortunate that this situation has come to this point where the longer that he stays the more his contributions will be tarnished by what will appear to be either ego or greed. He has not been performing to the level of his salary for several years. He has been given the opportunity and has promised change. It's easy to watch these losses and blame the players, but that is a cheap out for those who still try to justify the performance of the coach. He is the only constant over the past 4 years. III isn't stubborn or inflexible. He has changed over the years (staff, types of recruits, style of play), but the results have not changed for the better consistently enough. They've actually changed for the worse. III is a great man and a man of integrity. He has class and has run his program with class. We just aren't winning right now, and that is fair game for criticism.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,362
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Post by calhoya on Feb 23, 2017 9:48:46 GMT -5
The saddest part of last night's game is that it gave some the opportunity to denigrate someone I believe to be a good man and a good representative of the university. A big part of the blame goes to the coach, himself, who has proven to be stubborn and inflexible in his approach to the game and failed until lately to adapt to the changing environment in college basketball. Nevertheless, it is unfortunate that this situation has come to this point where the longer that he stays the more his contributions will be tarnished by what will appear to be either ego or greed. He has not been performing to the level of his salary for several years. He has been given the opportunity and has promised change. It's easy to watch these losses and blame the players, but that is a cheap out for those who still try to justify the performance of the coach. He is the only constant over the past 4 years. III isn't stubborn or inflexible. He has changed over the years (staff, types of recruits, style of play), but the results have not changed for the better consistently enough. They've actually changed for the worse. III is a great man and a man of integrity. He has class and has run his program with class. We just aren't winning right now, and that is fair game for criticism. Totally agree with you about the class of the individual, but it took him a very long time to change his system on offense to adjust to the shorter clock and the interest of the kids in playing a faster style. Change has come but not until recent years and even then it is incremental. His recruits have not fit well. Slow and plodding bigs with fast wings. Tall guards with little lateral mobility. It is as of he was trying to force fit players into a style of play notwithstanding the obvious mismatches in terms of compatible skills.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Feb 23, 2017 10:08:43 GMT -5
III isn't stubborn or inflexible. He has changed over the years (staff, types of recruits, style of play), but the results have not changed for the better consistently enough. They've actually changed for the worse. III is a great man and a man of integrity. He has class and has run his program with class. We just aren't winning right now, and that is fair game for criticism. Totally agree with you about the class of the individual, but it took him a very long time to change his system on offense to adjust to the shorter clock and the interest of the kids in playing a faster style. Change has come but not until recent years and even then it is incremental. His recruits have not fit well. Slow and plodding bigs with fast wings. Tall guards with little lateral mobility. It is as of he was trying to force fit players into a style of play notwithstanding the obvious mismatches in terms of compatible skills. He changed to his liking, not ours. He started tinkering and changing things after the Monroe-Wright-Freeman era. Again, he changed in the way he thought would work best. He was wrong. It hasn't worked. It was a mixed bag of results until the last 2 years, where we are really struggling. We've had turnover of players and staff. So, the man has tried. He just hasn't made the right decisions and it is the reason why we are struggling. He only knows one way, and that is Princeton. That is his basketball foundation. So even when he made changes, it was from within that framework. I think that is what we've seen over the years. His ceiling as a coach.
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Post by glidehoyas (Inactive) on Feb 23, 2017 10:21:38 GMT -5
Fake drinks on me Hoyateers lol I know you're not drinking any Kool Aid, glide. What is in your glass? I feel asleep. I don't drink though. Maybe a shot here and there, but that's it. Hmmm. I think I'm do for one lol.
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Nevada Hoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 18,485
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Post by Nevada Hoya on Feb 23, 2017 10:47:34 GMT -5
At least we didn't lose to the conference cellar dweller by 23 points (see UNLV), at least we won at the Carrier Dome (see Duke), and at least we beat Butler once (see Nova). Sigh!
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,386
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Post by drquigley on Feb 23, 2017 10:54:19 GMT -5
Yeah, you'll never convince me that it's more complicated than this. For all our flaws, we've lost every close game because of dumb play calling. If people don't think that's about coaching, I don't know what to tell you. I can't totally agree with this statement. JT3 drew a play that got the teams 2nd best 3pt shooter a wide open top of the key shot. Jessie shoots an airball. That play isn't on JT3. The culture of losing is on JT3... You miss my point. Yes the Jesse airball was on the shooter. But I was comparing how Laieto handled the last play of the game versus how JT3 handled it in the Maryland game. Remarkably similar circumstance yet DePaul has the ball in the hands of their best player while we had the ball in the hands of a rookie playing his second BE, D1, game. Now maybe Maryland defensed us better and that's why Mosley never got the ball into LJ's hands or maybe Mosley just screwed up (as you could expect from a freshman) and never tried to get the ball to LJ. Without a recording I don't know. But either way it shows that whereas Maryland either executed their defense perfectly keeping the ball out of LJ's hands or we screwed up by having Mosley handling the in bound pass to begin with. And it highlights how poorly we handled the Garrett full court drive by comparison.
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hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,818
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Post by hoyazeke on Feb 23, 2017 11:26:52 GMT -5
I can't totally agree with this statement. JT3 drew a play that got the teams 2nd best 3pt shooter a wide open top of the key shot. Jessie shoots an airball. That play isn't on JT3. The culture of losing is on JT3... You miss my point. Yes the Jesse airball was on the shooter. But I was comparing how Laieto handled the last play of the game versus how JT3 handled it in the Maryland game. Remarkably similar circumstance yet DePaul has the ball in the hands of their best player while we had the ball in the hands of a rookie playing his second BE, D1, game. Now maybe Maryland defensed us better and that's why Mosley never got the ball into LJ's hands or maybe Mosley just screwed up (as you could expect from a freshman) and never tried to get the ball to LJ. Without a recording I don't know. But either way it shows that whereas Maryland either executed their defense perfectly keeping the ball out of LJ's hands or we screwed up by having Mosley handling the in bound pass to begin with. And it highlights how poorly we handled the Garrett full court drive by comparison. DrQ did JT3 draw up that scenario for Jagan to get the ball of did Jagan make the decision not to give the ball back to LJ? Jagan played well that game but I can't imagine 3 calling his number in that situation. I truly have soured on JT3 during the course of this season but every play cannot go on him. The player need to make plays. I do blame JT3 for the culture that he has developed of coming up small in the biggest situations...........
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boxout05
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 573
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Post by boxout05 on Feb 23, 2017 11:27:01 GMT -5
Second time in 4 years our NCAA hopes were dashed by a loss to DePaul?
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
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Post by This Just In on Feb 23, 2017 11:32:08 GMT -5
Yeah, you'll never convince me that it's more complicated than this. For all our flaws, we've lost every close game because of dumb play calling. If people don't think that's about coaching, I don't know what to tell you. I can't totally agree with this statement. JT3 drew a play that got the teams 2nd best 3pt shooter a wide open top of the key shot. Jessie shoots an airball. That play isn't on JT3. The culture of losing is on JT3... No doubt that Govan was open, but why setup a play for a 3pt shot, which is not high percentage anyways? Not only was there a high chance of a missed shot, but a higher chance that the team would not get rebound off of a missed shot (both occurred). There was enough time to draw a play up for Peak on a drive to the rim, with how the game being called could have ended up with a made a basket or Peak getting fouled and going to the the free throw line . Truth be told, in that position if you have to draw a play for a player which one of these players do you want taking the last shot Peak, Pryor or Govan?
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GUJook97
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,445
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Post by GUJook97 on Feb 23, 2017 11:37:32 GMT -5
You miss my point. Yes the Jesse airball was on the shooter. But I was comparing how Laieto handled the last play of the game versus how JT3 handled it in the Maryland game. Remarkably similar circumstance yet DePaul has the ball in the hands of their best player while we had the ball in the hands of a rookie playing his second BE, D1, game. Now maybe Maryland defensed us better and that's why Mosley never got the ball into LJ's hands or maybe Mosley just screwed up (as you could expect from a freshman) and never tried to get the ball to LJ. Without a recording I don't know. But either way it shows that whereas Maryland either executed their defense perfectly keeping the ball out of LJ's hands or we screwed up by having Mosley handling the in bound pass to begin with. And it highlights how poorly we handled the Garrett full court drive by comparison. DrQ did JT3 draw up that scenario for Jagan to get the ball of did Jagan make the decision not to give the ball back to LJ? Jagan played well that game but I can't imagine 3 calling his number in that situation. I truly have soured on JT3 during the course of this season but every play cannot go on him. The player need to make plays. I do blame JT3 for the culture that he has developed of coming up small in the biggest situations........... I think that's a cop out. He's bad at play calling, not just creating a culture of players coming up small in big situations. It's just not a coincidence how many times in the past couple of years we have lost games in the last minutes with bad defensive and offensive play calling. I feel like I can copy my comments on every loss and apply them last night. As others pointed out, it was abundantly clear to everyone that Garrett was going to get the ball with 5 seconds left and drive the floor. Somehow, we had zero defense for this.
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daveg023
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,352
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Post by daveg023 on Feb 23, 2017 11:53:05 GMT -5
Two thoughts I have about this debacle last night:
1.) If we had more competent coaching, we win 4 games this year where we failed to execute in 4 home games (Maryland, Butler, Seton Hall, and now Depaul); these are games where a better coached team wins at 3 of these contests. Had we won these games we would be 18-10, and 8-7 in conference play, and probably very comfortably in the tournament. So the talent is there, the execution is lacking and that comes down to the coach. Beyond Villanova, you watch Providence, Seton Hall, and Butler win routinely in this new league with lesser talent, closing out games in the final minutes, and generally doing more with less. By blind luck and general parity, this team should have stumbled into some success in the last four years (one tournament berth and a win against Eastern Washington does not constitute success).
2.) Maybe this is a blessing in disguise (assuming it leads to change). Had we won last night, and then beaten St. Johns and/or Seton Hall and gave a valiant effort against Villanova, then there is no way the school is entertaining replacing the coach. We'd have a barely winning season, a probably post season berth in the NIT, plus the false hope of a good recruit coming next year; all things the school could use to support the coach's retention. But last night's ugly scene at the Verizon center coupled with the social media and broadcast media attention, perhaps this will ignite the administration to seriously consider change. I still think its a 50/50 proposition at best, but unless last night didn't happen, we were getting back JTIII no matter what else happened the rest of the way.
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lurkerhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,182
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Post by lurkerhoya on Feb 23, 2017 12:01:28 GMT -5
You miss my point. Yes the Jesse airball was on the shooter. But I was comparing how Laieto handled the last play of the game versus how JT3 handled it in the Maryland game. Remarkably similar circumstance yet DePaul has the ball in the hands of their best player while we had the ball in the hands of a rookie playing his second BE, D1, game. Now maybe Maryland defensed us better and that's why Mosley never got the ball into LJ's hands or maybe Mosley just screwed up (as you could expect from a freshman) and never tried to get the ball to LJ. Without a recording I don't know. But either way it shows that whereas Maryland either executed their defense perfectly keeping the ball out of LJ's hands or we screwed up by having Mosley handling the in bound pass to begin with. And it highlights how poorly we handled the Garrett full court drive by comparison. DrQ did JT3 draw up that scenario for Jagan to get the ball of did Jagan make the decision not to give the ball back to LJ? Jagan played well that game but I can't imagine 3 calling his number in that situation. I truly have soured on JT3 during the course of this season but every play cannot go on him. The player need to make plays. I do blame JT3 for the culture that he has developed of coming up small in the biggest situations........... Either the play was drawn that way, which is terrible coaching. Or Mosley, in his second career game and first major game, had not been coached over summer and fall workouts what to do in a very expected and basic game situation... which is terrible coaching. And last night is just a microcosm: our last possession involves a three-point shot in a tie game coming out of a timeout by our third scoring option, DePaul's was a straight line drive by their best player, basically exactly what our play should have been...That's it in 23 seconds right there, basically the last several years.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,608
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 23, 2017 12:20:53 GMT -5
And last night is just a microcosm: our last possession involves a three-point shot in a tie game coming out of a timeout by our third scoring option, DePaul's was a straight line drive by their best player, basically exactly what our play should have been...That's it in 23 seconds right there, basically the last several years. Poor decision by Govan; he had 5-6 seconds and a wide open lane to take it to the hoop.
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Loyal Hoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 554
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Post by Loyal Hoya on Feb 23, 2017 12:22:40 GMT -5
I can't totally agree with this statement. JT3 drew a play that got the teams 2nd best 3pt shooter a wide open top of the key shot. Jessie shoots an airball. That play isn't on JT3. The culture of losing is on JT3... No doubt that Govan was open, but why setup a play for a 3pt shot, which is not high percentage anyways? Not only was there a high chance of a missed shot, but a higher chance that the team would not get rebound off of a missed shot (both occurred). There was enough time to draw a play up for Peak on a drive to the rim, with how the game being called could have ended up with a made a basket or Peak getting fouled and going to the the free throw line . Truth be told, in that position if you have to draw a play for a player which one of these players do you want taking the last shot Peak, Pryor or Govan? It was a pick and roll and both defenders went with LJ. LJ made the right bball play to get the ball to the wide open Govan. Govan had space and time and might have taken a dribble in to get a better shot. Im not excusing the coach or the team for the loss, but I don't have an objection to the play call. Far more disturbing to me was the lack of any defender getting in front of and slowing down Billy Garrett Jr.
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Hoyas4Ever
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 23, 2017 12:29:17 GMT -5
I can't totally agree with this statement. JT3 drew a play that got the teams 2nd best 3pt shooter a wide open top of the key shot. Jessie shoots an airball. That play isn't on JT3. The culture of losing is on JT3... No doubt that Govan was open, but why setup a play for a 3pt shot, which is not high percentage anyways? Not only was there a high chance of a missed shot, but a higher chance that the team would not get rebound off of a missed shot (both occurred). There was enough time to draw a play up for Peak on a drive to the rim, with how the game being called could have ended up with a made a basket or Peak getting fouled and going to the the free throw line . Truth be told, in that position if you have to draw a play for a player which one of these players do you want taking the last shot Peak, Pryor or Govan? I think Govan choose to shoot a 3. If he would have popped out to the elbow he still would have been open for a 15 footer. I'm not blaming Govan in any way as he sets that pick and popped to the top of the key in the offense and unless he's told, why would he do anything different. Now if he was specifically told to get to the Elbow, then it's on him. But in terms of play calls, it yielded a wide open shot from a very good shooter. The shot selection is the only question and maybe the timing of that shot but if he still misses but catches any part of the rim, we would have had a chance at an offensive rebound and probably end up in overtime at the worst.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 23, 2017 12:36:18 GMT -5
I don't think for a moment that the plan was for Jessie to shoot a three. Our best player, LJ, had the ball. Jessie set a screen. Depaul wisely doubled LJ out of the screen;he was forced to give it up, and passed to Jessie, who had drifted to the 3-point line, but still had time to start toward the hoop. Nothing wrong with that play.
The defense on the last play was depressingly bad, both in scheme and in execution.
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