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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 21, 2017 11:01:14 GMT -5
Yo Husker, you're buds with Akoy? Do me a favor, tell him Miracles'87 loves watching him play ball! Seriously, I know yesterday wasn't what he hoped, but he plays hard with tremendous talent and desire, and I know he's just getting started. I have no doubt Akoy is going to make his mark at Georgetown, and I will be cheering all the way! Thanks! Not exactly buds. We consider our relationship as "family". Akoy would tell you the same. I will pass along the message. You are correct, not what he wanted, but his play wasn't terrible. Credited with 5 TO's but 1 was a blown officiating call on a kicked ball. One other was Derrickson mistaking Akoy for a streaking guard at half-court. I would agree with JT3's assessment of Akoy being a little over zealous yesterday. One thing to remember, this is the first time in 2 years he is healthy and it is definitely starting to show. No Georgetown people see it but I can as I know what he was before injuries. You will NEVER be able to call him out for lack of effort. FWIW I had the pleasure of meeting Copeland yesterday. I am a big fan of Agau's play and have been all year. I think he's shown a lot of potential, and I am glad we will have him on next year's team.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 21, 2017 12:21:53 GMT -5
As late as early December, JT3 was stating the team was going to be a full court pressing team that was aggressive and fast on both defense and offense. The team isn't doing any of that with any consistency. The team at times will show a press at the beginning of games and situationally but doesn't do it with any aggression until the end of games when the team is trying to battle back from a deficit. I think it's fair to take issue with some of the things JT3 said in the off season. JT3 is definitely close to the vest normally, but it's true that in the off-season he often makes references to player's improvement, etc. that doesn't necessarily pan out in real games (like his comments about Kaleb, etc.). As far as the press, I think it's unfair to criticize JT3's abandoning it because there was a good reason: it stunk. Yes, our press enabled us to manhandle USC Upstate and a few other teams, but unless we play really bad opponents, our press simply isn't very good. It causes us to pick up a lot of fouls 75 away from the basket, and more importantly, it has not been particularly effective in causing turnovers. Even early on, when we used the press more, a lot of teams easily broke the press and got easy baskets. Against better ball-handling teams, pressing with this group simply is not an option. We aren't quick enough or good enough defenders to press effectively for an entire game. I think it can be used situationally against bad teams (which is generally how JT3 has used it over the last few years), but otherwise, our press simply has not been good enough to merit playing it for an entire game.
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 22, 2017 12:03:52 GMT -5
As late as early December, JT3 was stating the team was going to be a full court pressing team that was aggressive and fast on both defense and offense. The team isn't doing any of that with any consistency. The team at times will show a press at the beginning of games and situationally but doesn't do it with any aggression until the end of games when the team is trying to battle back from a deficit. I think it's fair to take issue with some of the things JT3 said in the off season. JT3 is definitely close to the vest normally, but it's true that in the off-season he often makes references to player's improvement, etc. that doesn't necessarily pan out in real games (like his comments about Kaleb, etc.). As far as the press, I think it's unfair to criticize JT3's abandoning it because there was a good reason: it stunk. Yes, our press enabled us to manhandle USC Upstate and a few other teams, but unless we play really bad opponents, our press simply isn't very good. It causes us to pick up a lot of fouls 75 away from the basket, and more importantly, it has not been particularly effective in causing turnovers. Even early on, when we used the press more, a lot of teams easily broke the press and got easy baskets. Against better ball-handling teams, pressing with this group simply is not an option. We aren't quick enough or good enough defenders to press effectively for an entire game. I think it can be used situationally against bad teams (which is generally how JT3 has used it over the last few years), but otherwise, our press simply has not been good enough to merit playing it for an entire game. 2003 you missed the bigger point I was trying to make. I was using the example of the press to demonstrate JT3's inability or unwillingness to make real changes and stick with them. His inability to make a plan and stick with it long enough to see it work long term instead of completely caving on the game plan and going back to what he knows and is comfortable with regardless of how it has shown to be unsuccessful. He did that with the press on macro level and he has done that on a micro level in game to game basis with his erratic substitution patterns where he will start a player, they mess up early and may not see the floor for a long time in the game if at all. He also has done that several times this season with the game plan, completely throwing out the game plan (blitz ball screens in Creighton game) at the first instance of trouble. No tweaking or minor adjustments, instead it's Complete abandonment. The press is a symptom of his inability to make real changes because it's uncomfortable and it appears he doesn't trust him self or his assistants on how quickly he gives up on the plan entering the game. Real change is uncomfortable and knowing that at times it's not going to look good but you gotta see it through to get better at it and accepting that it is the only way to be successful at that changes. West Virginia struggled in the first couple seasons with the press after Huggins made the change to becoming Press Virginia. Huggins didn't scrap it, he made tweaks to it. He continues to morph it on large scale level and in game to game situations as he learns what works and what does not. Same thing with Boheim and his 2/3 zone. Press Virginia still gives up breakaway layups from time to time. Any coach will tell you that if you press for a significant amount of time you're going to get beat for layups but the goal is to ware down the other team and force several mental and physical mistakes while speeding up the tempo. They He talked about major changes in the offseason and early OOC schedule including making the press a major part of what this team was going to do and a couple missteps in execution early and he scraps it. These changes were hopefully intended to be long term changes that go beyond this year. This team has basically become the same team that last year's team in terms of playing style and identity. No major changes whatsoever. We don't really play faster on a consistent basis. We use the press as either a show and go defense with no purpose or intensity early in games or as a break the glass in case of emergencies option at the end of games. I continue to use the press as an example. I don't care if the team presses or not but as a coach if you hit rock bottom with a 15-18 record and you have missed the NCAA's 2 of 3 seasons and you go into the next season promising major changes that includes a completely different defensive philosophy to build excitement for the team and after a quarter of the season, you scrap your major change in defensive philosophy, go back to playing how you played the year before and to no surprise the team has the same record at the same point of the season as last season of 14-13. The rest of the BIG EAST has obviously figured out JT3's game philosophy and what he is trying to do and instead of making an adjustment, JT3 continues to do the same thing that got the team to a quasi.500 program. I like JT3 as a coach. I think he has a lot of positives but a major negative is his unwillingness or fear of making major changes. If this team was 14-13 after making significant changes in style and philosophy I would be more understanding as whole sale changes in style and philosophy take time to implement, adjust and improve upon. I'm afraid that an unwillingness to make and stick with these major changes might be what ends up costing him his job.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 22, 2017 12:56:56 GMT -5
We don't play defense well enough to press, unless we are in desperation mode (don't get me started) or we are playing a weak team like USC Upstate. Maybe coach for some reason believed our defensive abilities are stronger than they really are (that is on him, although an evaluation issue rather than a strategic one). While it is certainly on the coach and his staff to improve the players' fundamentals and techniques, the coach also has to realize what his team is capable of - and what they are not. Our attempts to pressure good teams have been generally been shredded. And we have such razor thin margins for any success, we can't stubbornly stick to prior plans or expectations for very long when they clearly aren't working.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 22, 2017 14:01:32 GMT -5
We don't play defense well enough to press, unless we are in desperation mode (don't get me started) or we are playing a weak team like USC Upstate. Maybe coach for some reason believed our defensive abilities are stronger than they really are (that is on him, although an evaluation issue rather than a strategic one). While it is certainly on the coach and his staff to improve the players' fundamentals and techniques, the coach also has to realize what his team is capable of - and what they are not. Our attempts to pressure good teams have been generally been shredded. And we have such razor thin margins for any success, we can't stubbornly stick to prior plans or expectations for very long when they clearly aren't working. This, exactly. I am not saying you don't try change or stick with it, but there is nothing to be gained from forcing a press that isn't remotely effective and kills us on defense. This group is not a good group of defenders, and they are not good enough to play a press for any substantial period of time. Every time we use it against a semi-skilled opponent, it gets shredded, we rarely get turnovers, and the added fouls and eventual free throws more than outweigh the handful of turnovers we occasionally get. I am not saying a press cannot work in college basketball, but doing it with this group isn't going to work in most circumstances. "Abandoning" it in such a situation seems like the smart decision to me.
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miracles87
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Post by miracles87 on Feb 22, 2017 15:01:10 GMT -5
I think the abandonment of the press is directly related to Copeland's departure.. Frankly, I thought something was amiss for Cope watching him front the press early this year. He seems made for it, but didn't seem to get after it with the intensity it needs. Now, we have Derrickson fronting a lot, and his quicks are obviously challenged, Agau has looked good a couple times. I think Johnson would obviousl be perfect. There are some personnel groups better than others for the task, I wouldn't mind seeing Coach try with some dif lineups
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 22, 2017 15:33:56 GMT -5
We don't play defense well enough to press, unless we are in desperation mode (don't get me started) or we are playing a weak team like USC Upstate. Maybe coach for some reason believed our defensive abilities are stronger than they really are (that is on him, although an evaluation issue rather than a strategic one). While it is certainly on the coach and his staff to improve the players' fundamentals and techniques, the coach also has to realize what his team is capable of - and what they are not. Our attempts to pressure good teams have been generally been shredded. And we have such razor thin margins for any success, we can't stubbornly stick to prior plans or expectations for very long when they clearly aren't working. This, exactly. I am not saying you don't try change or stick with it, but there is nothing to be gained from forcing a press that isn't remotely effective and kills us on defense. This group is not a good group of defenders, and they are not good enough to play a press for any substantial period of time. Every time we use it against a semi-skilled opponent, it gets shredded, we rarely get turnovers, and the added fouls and eventual free throws more than outweigh the handful of turnovers we occasionally get. I am not saying a press cannot work in college basketball, but doing it with this group isn't going to work in most circumstances. "Abandoning" it in such a situation seems like the smart decision to me. Fanatic & 2003 you both continue to miss my bigger point and are focusing on the press. I wasn't saying we need to press. Pressing or not pressing isn't the issue. Making significant changes to get this program back to an elite level is. If JT3 said we were going to be a team that played that a lot zone going into this season and he all but abandoned the zone a quarter way into the season, I would be using the zone in this example. I used the press as an example because JT3 said that the press was going to be a key part of what this team does defensively. Making necessary changes on small scale and large scale to get this program from a .500 type program as it has been over the most of the last 2 seasons by doing the same things over and over again back to a program fighting for 1 & 2 seeds in the NCAA's are the issues I was pointing out. I was using JT3's inability to stick with any changes that he implements the moment it hits a bump in the road. I'm sure Boheim had issues when he first made the 2/3 zone a essential part of what his team does defensively. I saw Huggin's Press Virginia teams struggle early in the early days of his implementation of their press. Struggles come with changes. I have a bigger issue with when you hit rock bottom (15-18) and being afraid or hesitant of change the moment it gets a little tough. Most of the BIG EAST has past Georgetown. Xavier, Providence, Villanova having been sweeping JT3's team's over the last couple of years. Ed Cooley has beaten JT3 6 straight times I believe and he hasn't had a better overall roster in terms of talent in any of those games. Chris Mack's Xavier teams have defended JT3's Princeton offense better than other team in the conference. We were bailed out at Xavier last year by an out of body experience by Tre Campbell. We're lucky if we split with Butler, Creighton and Seton Hall. Let the team loose at the Garden against the Johnnies and that will be 8 teams that have past the Hoyas in terms of progress in 2 seasons. My prediction is that if JT3 continues to show an inability to make real changes and stick with them, it will lead to the administration having to do it.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 22, 2017 16:24:54 GMT -5
This, exactly. I am not saying you don't try change or stick with it, but there is nothing to be gained from forcing a press that isn't remotely effective and kills us on defense. This group is not a good group of defenders, and they are not good enough to play a press for any substantial period of time. Every time we use it against a semi-skilled opponent, it gets shredded, we rarely get turnovers, and the added fouls and eventual free throws more than outweigh the handful of turnovers we occasionally get. I am not saying a press cannot work in college basketball, but doing it with this group isn't going to work in most circumstances. "Abandoning" it in such a situation seems like the smart decision to me. Fanatic & 2003 you both continue to miss my bigger point and are focusing on the press. I wasn't saying we need to press. Pressing or not pressing isn't the issue. Making significant changes to get this program back to an elite level is. If JT3 said we were going to be a team that played that a lot zone going into this season and he all but abandoned the zone a quarter way into the season, I would be using the zone in this example. I used the press as an example because JT3 said that the press was going to be a key part of what this team does defensively. Making necessary changes on small scale and large scale to get this program from a .500 type program as it has been over the most of the last 2 seasons by doing the same things over and over again back to a program fighting for 1 & 2 seeds in the NCAA's are the issues I was pointing out. I was using JT3's inability to stick with any changes that he implements the moment it hits a bump in the road. I'm sure Boheim had issues when he first made the 2/3 zone a essential part of what his team does defensively. I saw Huggin's Press Virginia teams struggle early in the early days of his implementation of their press. Struggles come with changes. I have a bigger issue with when you hit rock bottom (15-18) and being afraid or hesitant of change the moment it gets a little tough. Most of the BIG EAST has past Georgetown. Xavier, Providence, Villanova having been sweeping JT3's team's over the last couple of years. Ed Cooley has beaten JT3 6 straight times I believe and he hasn't had a better overall roster in terms of talent in any of those games. Chris Mack's Xavier teams have defended JT3's Princeton offense better than other team in the conference. We were bailed out at Xavier last year by an out of body experience by Tre Campbell. We're lucky if we split with Butler, Creighton and Seton Hall. Let the team loose at the Garden against the Johnnies and that will be 8 teams that have past the Hoyas in terms of progress in 2 seasons. My prediction is that if JT3 continues to show an inability to make real changes and stick with them, it will lead to the administration having to do it. I understand your point. All I am saying is that while you can change your approach (like going to a press, zone, etc.) you cannot say "I'm going to press" and then do it without any regard for the results. We stopped pressing because it wasn't working. And, I think with Copeland leaving and a few other guys being injured at various points, we wouldn't have the depth for it anyway. Let's not pretend that JT3 hasn't made any changes. This is the fastest JT3 team ever, and it is substantially faster than some of our teams that were much better in the past. He's definitely gone more uptempo, and tried new things, and stuck with some of them. Obviously, it's questionable whether these changes have yielded anything positive. But, this statement is ludicrous: "Ed Cooley has beaten JT3 6 straight times I believe and he hasn't had a better overall roster in terms of talent in any of those games." In 2015 and 2016, Cooley had the eventual #5 NBA pick in Dunn, and #51 pick in Bentil. That is talent. Guys who "might" have potential or have athleticism with no skill aren't talent of that level.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Feb 22, 2017 16:35:07 GMT -5
We don't play defense well enough to press, unless we are in desperation mode (don't get me started) or we are playing a weak team like USC Upstate. Maybe coach for some reason believed our defensive abilities are stronger than they really are (that is on him, although an evaluation issue rather than a strategic one). While it is certainly on the coach and his staff to improve the players' fundamentals and techniques, the coach also has to realize what his team is capable of - and what they are not. Our attempts to pressure good teams have been generally been shredded. And we have such razor thin margins for any success, we can't stubbornly stick to prior plans or expectations for very long when they clearly aren't working. This, exactly. I am not saying you don't try change or stick with it, but there is nothing to be gained from forcing a press that isn't remotely effective and kills us on defense. This group is not a good group of defenders, and they are not good enough to play a press for any substantial period of time. Every time we use it against a semi-skilled opponent, it gets shredded, we rarely get turnovers, and the added fouls and eventual free throws more than outweigh the handful of turnovers we occasionally get. I am not saying a press cannot work in college basketball, but doing it with this group isn't going to work in most circumstances. "Abandoning" it in such a situation seems like the smart decision to me. Can you explain to me why JT3 thought he could install a press as his main defense if the personnel were so obviously ill-suited to it?
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guru
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Post by guru on Feb 22, 2017 16:39:08 GMT -5
This, exactly. I am not saying you don't try change or stick with it, but there is nothing to be gained from forcing a press that isn't remotely effective and kills us on defense. This group is not a good group of defenders, and they are not good enough to play a press for any substantial period of time. Every time we use it against a semi-skilled opponent, it gets shredded, we rarely get turnovers, and the added fouls and eventual free throws more than outweigh the handful of turnovers we occasionally get. I am not saying a press cannot work in college basketball, but doing it with this group isn't going to work in most circumstances. "Abandoning" it in such a situation seems like the smart decision to me. Can you explain to me why JT3 thought he could install a press as his main defense if the personnel were so obviously ill-suited to it? Nope, he can't. But he'll give you three-plus paragraphs of premium mumbo jumbo to avoid placing any of this at the feet of the man who assembled and coaches the team - and who publicly advocated for a more pressing style for this season.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 22, 2017 16:44:17 GMT -5
This, exactly. I am not saying you don't try change or stick with it, but there is nothing to be gained from forcing a press that isn't remotely effective and kills us on defense. This group is not a good group of defenders, and they are not good enough to play a press for any substantial period of time. Every time we use it against a semi-skilled opponent, it gets shredded, we rarely get turnovers, and the added fouls and eventual free throws more than outweigh the handful of turnovers we occasionally get. I am not saying a press cannot work in college basketball, but doing it with this group isn't going to work in most circumstances. "Abandoning" it in such a situation seems like the smart decision to me. Can you explain to me why JT3 thought he could install a press as his main defense if the personnel were so obviously ill-suited to it? For starters, I don't know if he ever thought it was going to be his "main" defense. He said we were going to press, and we were going to play faster. I don't recall him saying we were going to principally press. Second, I think he thought it was possible that with Akoy and Kaleb on the floor, we'd have a lineup reasonably well suited to press. Akoy has taken longer to get back in playing shape and Kaleb obviously hasn't developed as III thought. But, for what it's worth, I do think that lineup would be pretty good pressing (with either PG, Peak and Pryor). But it has some offensive limitations to say the least. But at the end of the day, I strongly believe he felt as though a press was something important to have in the toolbox as something to try in certain games as either a defensive weapon or a means to push tempo. And we have tried pressing at least a bit virtually every game. It hasn't really worked very frequently at all. I view a lot of things as a failure this year, but not that. I mean, things aren't working so you experiment with something else.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 22, 2017 17:43:17 GMT -5
Fanatic & 2003 you both continue to miss my bigger point and are focusing on the press. I wasn't saying we need to press. Pressing or not pressing isn't the issue. Making significant changes to get this program back to an elite level is. If JT3 said we were going to be a team that played that a lot zone going into this season and he all but abandoned the zone a quarter way into the season, I would be using the zone in this example. I used the press as an example because JT3 said that the press was going to be a key part of what this team does defensively. Making necessary changes on small scale and large scale to get this program from a .500 type program as it has been over the most of the last 2 seasons by doing the same things over and over again back to a program fighting for 1 & 2 seeds in the NCAA's are the issues I was pointing out. I was using JT3's inability to stick with any changes that he implements the moment it hits a bump in the road. I'm sure Boheim had issues when he first made the 2/3 zone a essential part of what his team does defensively. I saw Huggin's Press Virginia teams struggle early in the early days of his implementation of their press. Struggles come with changes. I have a bigger issue with when you hit rock bottom (15-18) and being afraid or hesitant of change the moment it gets a little tough. Most of the BIG EAST has past Georgetown. Xavier, Providence, Villanova having been sweeping JT3's team's over the last couple of years. Ed Cooley has beaten JT3 6 straight times I believe and he hasn't had a better overall roster in terms of talent in any of those games. Chris Mack's Xavier teams have defended JT3's Princeton offense better than other team in the conference. We were bailed out at Xavier last year by an out of body experience by Tre Campbell. We're lucky if we split with Butler, Creighton and Seton Hall. Let the team loose at the Garden against the Johnnies and that will be 8 teams that have past the Hoyas in terms of progress in 2 seasons. My prediction is that if JT3 continues to show an inability to make real changes and stick with them, it will lead to the administration having to do it. I understand your point. All I am saying is that while you can change your approach (like going to a press, zone, etc.) you cannot say "I'm going to press" and then do it without any regard for the results. We stopped pressing because it wasn't working. And, I think with Copeland leaving and a few other guys being injured at various points, we wouldn't have the depth for it anyway. Let's not pretend that JT3 hasn't made any changes. This is the fastest JT3 team ever, and it is substantially faster than some of our teams that were much better in the past. He's definitely gone more uptempo, and tried new things, and stuck with some of them. Obviously, it's questionable whether these changes have yielded anything positive. But, this statement is ludicrous: "Ed Cooley has beaten JT3 6 straight times I believe and he hasn't had a better overall roster in terms of talent in any of those games." In 2015 and 2016, Cooley had the eventual #5 NBA pick in Dunn, and #51 pick in Bentil. That is talent. Guys who "might" have potential or have athleticism with no skill aren't talent of that level. Sure, you can.. Especially if you want this to be the long term philosophy of your program.. I get what 4Ever is saying, whatever you want to do as a coach you have to commit to it in order to get the kids to buy in.. You're right the press stunk & may have been terrible all season or maybe by now it would have gotten better, we'll never know because he bailed on it.. Here's an article I read awhile back on Huggins changing to a pressing team, the key quote comes from Kevin Mackey who helped Huggins learn the press.. To me this thought process can be applied to other areas too.. collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2015/11/05/a-shift-in-philosophy-led-bob-huggins-to-build-press-virginia/That buy-in is key not only for the beginnings of a new system, but also throughout the course of a season. Turning into a high-level pressure defensive team doesn’t happen overnight.
“The kids can tell if you’re really committed to it,” Mackey continued. “Bobby committed to it. When you first start to teach , it’s a fourth grade press and that’s the best it is. And then after a week it’s a sixth grade press, and after three weeks it’s a high school press.”As long as JT3 continues to be wishy washy about how he wants to go about coaching the program & recruiting for the program he'll probably be stuck in mud..
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Hoyas4Ever
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 23, 2017 5:00:12 GMT -5
Fanatic & 2003 you both continue to miss my bigger point and are focusing on the press. I wasn't saying we need to press. Pressing or not pressing isn't the issue. Making significant changes to get this program back to an elite level is. If JT3 said we were going to be a team that played that a lot zone going into this season and he all but abandoned the zone a quarter way into the season, I would be using the zone in this example. I used the press as an example because JT3 said that the press was going to be a key part of what this team does defensively. Making necessary changes on small scale and large scale to get this program from a .500 type program as it has been over the most of the last 2 seasons by doing the same things over and over again back to a program fighting for 1 & 2 seeds in the NCAA's are the issues I was pointing out. I was using JT3's inability to stick with any changes that he implements the moment it hits a bump in the road. I'm sure Boheim had issues when he first made the 2/3 zone a essential part of what his team does defensively. I saw Huggin's Press Virginia teams struggle early in the early days of his implementation of their press. Struggles come with changes. I have a bigger issue with when you hit rock bottom (15-18) and being afraid or hesitant of change the moment it gets a little tough. Most of the BIG EAST has past Georgetown. Xavier, Providence, Villanova having been sweeping JT3's team's over the last couple of years. Ed Cooley has beaten JT3 6 straight times I believe and he hasn't had a better overall roster in terms of talent in any of those games. Chris Mack's Xavier teams have defended JT3's Princeton offense better than other team in the conference. We were bailed out at Xavier last year by an out of body experience by Tre Campbell. We're lucky if we split with Butler, Creighton and Seton Hall. Let the team loose at the Garden against the Johnnies and that will be 8 teams that have past the Hoyas in terms of progress in 2 seasons. My prediction is that if JT3 continues to show an inability to make real changes and stick with them, it will lead to the administration having to do it. I understand your point. All I am saying is that while you can change your approach (like going to a press, zone, etc.) you cannot say "I'm going to press" and then do it without any regard for the results. We stopped pressing because it wasn't working. And, I think with Copeland leaving and a few other guys being injured at various points, we wouldn't have the depth for it anyway. Let's not pretend that JT3 hasn't made any changes. This is the fastest JT3 team ever, and it is substantially faster than some of our teams that were much better in the past. He's definitely gone more uptempo, and tried new things, and stuck with some of them. Obviously, it's questionable whether these changes have yielded anything positive. But, this statement is ludicrous: "Ed Cooley has beaten JT3 6 straight times I believe and he hasn't had a better overall roster in terms of talent in any of those games." In 2015 and 2016, Cooley had the eventual #5 NBA pick in Dunn, and #51 pick in Bentil. That is talent. Guys who "might" have potential or have athleticism with no skill aren't talent of that level. Etomic understood the the point I was trying to make. As a coach you have to commit to whatever it is you want to implement long term. What kind message is he sending his players when he bails on the plan he was probably selling them on all spring, summer, and fall in just 8 games. And in those 8 games, he was pulling away from the plan as the games progressed instead of tweaking or massaging the defensive philosophy telling them this is what we're going to do buy in. Instead he bails on it. Their not going to buy in and get better at it if they see he's not sold on it. That would go for any significant changes made. In in terms of results, no significant changes from last season to this one, the same record last season and this season through 28 games. The faster speed of the offense could easily be contributed to a faster more athletic roster. You remove DSR, a slower foot non athletic but highly skilled guard and replace him with 3 much quicker and more athletic guards and your going to play faster. Other than roster changes and emphasizing faster and harder cuts and motion in the offense that would come naturally with faster players anyway. In terms of Providence having more talent because of Dunn and Bentil being a ludicrous statement tells me you don't follow recruiting. Those Providence teams were top heavy with in terms of talent with Dunn and Bentil. The Hoyas roster overall had more talent. In the last 3 years Providence has had 3 solid Top 100 players total in Dunn, Paskwal (2014-2015) and Jalen Lindsey. Ben Bentil and Alpha Diallo were fringe top 100 prospects depending on what sight you look at. In 2014-2015 season the Hoyas starting 5 were all top 100 prospects along with Mikael Hopkins, Paul White, and fringe 100 player Tre Campbell (fringe) coming off the bench. In 2015-2016 we again had more starters in the top 100 DSR, Copeland, Peak, Campbell, and Derrickson, fringe top 100 Kaleb Johnson not to mention a Top 50 player in Govan who was a part time starter then they had on their entire roster in Dunn, Lindsey and Bentil (fringe). This season Providence has 1 solid top 100 prospect in Lindsey and a fringe top 100 in Diallo. Georgetown has Govan, Peak, Derrickson, Johnson, Agau, and Campbell. Ed Cooley's just a much better coach in evaluating talent, developing talent short term and long and implementing talent into his system, that's not even arguable. But overall Georgetown has had more talent over the last 3 years then Providence and it's not really even close.
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Hoyas4Ever
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A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 23, 2017 5:11:38 GMT -5
I understand your point. All I am saying is that while you can change your approach (like going to a press, zone, etc.) you cannot say "I'm going to press" and then do it without any regard for the results. We stopped pressing because it wasn't working. And, I think with Copeland leaving and a few other guys being injured at various points, we wouldn't have the depth for it anyway. Let's not pretend that JT3 hasn't made any changes. This is the fastest JT3 team ever, and it is substantially faster than some of our teams that were much better in the past. He's definitely gone more uptempo, and tried new things, and stuck with some of them. Obviously, it's questionable whether these changes have yielded anything positive. But, this statement is ludicrous: "Ed Cooley has beaten JT3 6 straight times I believe and he hasn't had a better overall roster in terms of talent in any of those games." In 2015 and 2016, Cooley had the eventual #5 NBA pick in Dunn, and #51 pick in Bentil. That is talent. Guys who "might" have potential or have athleticism with no skill aren't talent of that level. Sure, you can.. Especially if you want this to be the long term philosophy of your program.. I get what 4Ever is saying, whatever you want to do as a coach you have to commit to it in order to get the kids to buy in.. You're right the press stunk & may have been terrible all season or maybe by now it would have gotten better, we'll never know because he bailed on it.. Here's an article I read awhile back on Huggins changing to a pressing team, the key quote comes from Kevin Mackey who helped Huggins learn the press.. To me this thought process can be applied to other areas too.. collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2015/11/05/a-shift-in-philosophy-led-bob-huggins-to-build-press-virginia/That buy-in is key not only for the beginnings of a new system, but also throughout the course of a season. Turning into a high-level pressure defensive team doesn’t happen overnight.
“The kids can tell if you’re really committed to it,” Mackey continued. “Bobby committed to it. When you first start to teach , it’s a fourth grade press and that’s the best it is. And then after a week it’s a sixth grade press, and after three weeks it’s a high school press.”As long as JT3 continues to be wishy washy about how he wants to go about coaching the program & recruiting for the program he'll probably be stuck in mud.. "Sure, you can.. Especially if you want this to be the long term philosophy of your program..
I get what 4Ever is saying, whatever you want to do as a coach you have to commit to it in order to get the kids to buy in..
You're right the press stunk & may have been terrible all season or maybe by now it would have gotten better, we'll never know because he bailed on it..
As long as JT3 continues to be wishy washy about how he wants to go about coaching the program & recruiting for the program he'll probably be stuck in mud.."EXACTLY!!!! 14-14 through 28 games in back to back years, No NCAA Tournaments and no significant change in the style of play whatsoever SCREAMS STUCK IN THE MUD!
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Hoyas4Ever
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
Posts: 5,448
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 23, 2017 5:47:33 GMT -5
I understand your point. All I am saying is that while you can change your approach (like going to a press, zone, etc.) you cannot say "I'm going to press" and then do it without any regard for the results. We stopped pressing because it wasn't working. And, I think with Copeland leaving and a few other guys being injured at various points, we wouldn't have the depth for it anyway. Let's not pretend that JT3 hasn't made any changes. This is the fastest JT3 team ever, and it is substantially faster than some of our teams that were much better in the past. He's definitely gone more uptempo, and tried new things, and stuck with some of them. Obviously, it's questionable whether these changes have yielded anything positive. But, this statement is ludicrous: "Ed Cooley has beaten JT3 6 straight times I believe and he hasn't had a better overall roster in terms of talent in any of those games." In 2015 and 2016, Cooley had the eventual #5 NBA pick in Dunn, and #51 pick in Bentil. That is talent. Guys who "might" have potential or have athleticism with no skill aren't talent of that level. Sure, you can.. Especially if you want this to be the long term philosophy of your program.. I get what 4Ever is saying, whatever you want to do as a coach you have to commit to it in order to get the kids to buy in.. You're right the press stunk & may have been terrible all season or maybe by now it would have gotten better, we'll never know because he bailed on it.. Here's an article I read awhile back on Huggins changing to a pressing team, the key quote comes from Kevin Mackey who helped Huggins learn the press.. To me this thought process can be applied to other areas too.. collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2015/11/05/a-shift-in-philosophy-led-bob-huggins-to-build-press-virginia/That buy-in is key not only for the beginnings of a new system, but also throughout the course of a season. Turning into a high-level pressure defensive team doesn’t happen overnight.
“The kids can tell if you’re really committed to it,” Mackey continued. “Bobby committed to it. When you first start to teach , it’s a fourth grade press and that’s the best it is. And then after a week it’s a sixth grade press, and after three weeks it’s a high school press.”As long as JT3 continues to be wishy washy about how he wants to go about coaching the program & recruiting for the program he'll probably be stuck in mud. "collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2015/11/05/a-shift-in-philosophy-led-bob-huggins-to-build-press-virginia/
"But things changed upon the Mountaineers’ arrival in the Big 12 in 2013. They won just 13 games in their debut season and 17 the following year. While there were some close defeats during those two seasons, the common theme was that the Mountaineers didn’t defend with the aggressiveness many had come to expect from Huggins-coached teams. Part of that was having to adjust their personnel to fit their new conference home.
“(The Big 12) was a different style of play,” Huggins said, “more of a ‘play off the bounce’ kind of league.”
But the main thing was that in those two seasons, the Mountaineers could not get the stops they needed to close out games. And that was a departure from what many are used to seeing from Huggins-coached teams.Great post Etomic!
For all of the different areas from which coaches look to extract some kind of motivation, there’s no greater catalyst for change than losing. After two seasons of struggling in the Big 12 West Virginia was faced with a choice: either adapt or continue to languish on the periphery of their new conference. Huggins and his staff adapted, embracing an approach that was a departure from what he’s done in the past."The move paid off.
“Press Virginia” is here to stays.
Great Post Etomic! Really think you can replace Huggin's name with JT3 and West Virginia with Georgetown throughout this article. Hoyas have struggled the last 2 years in a "new" conference. Huggin's brought in, made significant changes and West Virginia is back to being a perennial Top 20 team that has only 1 Top 100 prospect on the roster in Esa Ahmed.
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Post by iheartdurenbros on Feb 23, 2017 8:00:54 GMT -5
These are a great series of posts, Hoyas4Ever and EtomicB.
One thing JT3 does not have that Huggins had is time. The FGCU loss was the first sign of systemic problem. And heading into a new conference where uptempo guard play determined the pace of play should have only signaled the need to adapt in recruiting and style of play. Changes in the rules have only heightened the issue. Since that time JT3 has shown an unwillingness to go after guards, some of them wanting to go here. This includes Justin Robinson and Daquan Bracey. Instead, this year we have point guard by committee and our junior guard doesn't even get playing time any more. Both Mosely and Mulmore have promise, but they are four year players.
I have been looking forward to a Mosely-Waters back court. It signaled adaptation and change to me. But it's difficult to see how JT3 is going to keep pieces together. If the team showed improvement in February, it would be easier to sell the process to players and assistants. You are right Hoyas4Ever. Nothing has changed. And I'm afraid we will see key departures this off season.
I have believed that JT3's shifts in style this season have been due to personnel, as others have pointed out. And I have been largely forgiving, since JT3 does not have the luxury to have a losing season. With an increasingly restive fan base, he has to win this year. Really most Hoyas fans do not care about anything else.
I really think things might have been different if he communicated his vision to the fans. At the banquet last year (yes, I was among a handful of attendees there who did not work directly with the program), he did not address anyone. He left for a recruiting visit early. I know the solution is to just win, but he could give the supporters something. He also never opens his press conferences with any statements, again missing opportunities to explain his vision and shape the narrative about the program. Instead, he leaves it up to us to draw inferences. Casual Hoya has shaped the narrative more than anyone. While I have now reached the same conclusion as he, I have felt that his unrelenting negativity has hurt the program. My point is that JT3 has offered nothing to counteract that narrative.
And that would require a commitment to a strategy for change. And Hoyas4Ever has pointed out there is deep ambivalence.
And there is no time any more. Far more disturbing than the sparse attendance is the negativity of those who are there. And I'm certain it affects the players. They know how we are reacting. Yeah, there have only been a couple of games where the chanting is audible on tv. During every game, you can hear someone yelling about the coach. And fans leave very unhappy after losses. This combined with the players' uncertainty regarding roles it is little wonder that players actually seem depressed to play. All season I have felt that the team's best chance to regroup is when they hit the road whether it is to Maui, Syracuse, or Hinkle.
So JT3 is in a situation largely of his own making and I don't think he has the ability to get out of it. There will be no patience if key players transfer and the guards stumble next year. And this toxic atmosphere is not good for the players. So, as Hoyas4Ever has said, he is (or should be) working himself out of a job. He's out of time.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 24, 2017 14:40:58 GMT -5
Can you explain to me why JT3 thought he could install a press as his main defense if the personnel were so obviously ill-suited to it? Nope, he can't. But he'll give you three-plus paragraphs of premium mumbo jumbo to avoid placing any of this at the feet of the man who assembled and coaches the team - and who publicly advocated for a more pressing style for this season. No mumbo jumbo. I think aleutianhoya said it best above, so no need to further respond. I think the mistake is that people thought pressing more meant going to a VCU or 1980s style Hoyas press. As aleutian noted, that's not what he said we were going to do. Now, if he did say that it would be our "main defense," then I agree with you that installing such a defense as our "main offense" would have been an ill advised tactic by the coaching staff.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 24, 2017 14:47:20 GMT -5
In terms of Providence having more talent because of Dunn and Bentil being a ludicrous statement tells me you don't follow recruiting. Those Providence teams were top heavy with in terms of talent with Dunn and Bentil. The Hoyas roster overall had more talent. In the last 3 years Providence has had 3 solid Top 100 players total in Dunn, Paskwal (2014-2015) and Jalen Lindsey. Ben Bentil and Alpha Diallo were fringe top 100 prospects depending on what sight you look at. In 2014-2015 season the Hoyas starting 5 were all top 100 prospects along with Mikael Hopkins, Paul White, and fringe 100 player Tre Campbell (fringe) coming off the bench. In 2015-2016 we again had more starters in the top 100 DSR, Copeland, Peak, Campbell, and Derrickson, fringe top 100 Kaleb Johnson not to mention a Top 50 player in Govan who was a part time starter then they had on their entire roster in Dunn, Lindsey and Bentil (fringe). This season Providence has 1 solid top 100 prospect in Lindsey and a fringe top 100 in Diallo. Georgetown has Govan, Peak, Derrickson, Johnson, Agau, and Campbell. Ed Cooley's just a much better coach in evaluating talent, developing talent short term and long and implementing talent into his system, that's not even arguable. But overall Georgetown has had more talent over the last 3 years then Providence and it's not really even close. We will just have to agree to disagree. Again, I don't think people use the term "talent" properly. I don't care where someone was ranked. Cameron and Hart were similarly ranked as high school students, yet I would take Hart any day over Cameron (and lots of other people lower ranked than Cameron). Once you're in college, it depends on how you play, not what people thought of you in high school. Yes, I do think Providence had better talent. It seems like your opinion comes more from high school rankings than actual results from playing collegiate basketball. Yes, Bentil might have been a fringe top 100 prospect, but he clearly punched way above that level - otherwise he would not have been drafted! On the other hand, our top 50 guys haven't been drafted. So, at the times, the games were played, Providence had better players. Again, having more starters in the top 100 is meaningless (and Campbell wasn't top 100) if they don't play up to that level. Now, I think it's far to criticize JT3's role in recruiting players (like passing on Hart). In fact, I think it's the most compelling argument against him and in favor of a change. But Ed Cooley isn't turning every fringe prospect into a draft pick either - coaching can help, but it's only a part of the total package.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 24, 2017 15:23:19 GMT -5
In terms of Providence having more talent because of Dunn and Bentil being a ludicrous statement tells me you don't follow recruiting. Those Providence teams were top heavy with in terms of talent with Dunn and Bentil. The Hoyas roster overall had more talent. In the last 3 years Providence has had 3 solid Top 100 players total in Dunn, Paskwal (2014-2015) and Jalen Lindsey. Ben Bentil and Alpha Diallo were fringe top 100 prospects depending on what sight you look at. In 2014-2015 season the Hoyas starting 5 were all top 100 prospects along with Mikael Hopkins, Paul White, and fringe 100 player Tre Campbell (fringe) coming off the bench. In 2015-2016 we again had more starters in the top 100 DSR, Copeland, Peak, Campbell, and Derrickson, fringe top 100 Kaleb Johnson not to mention a Top 50 player in Govan who was a part time starter then they had on their entire roster in Dunn, Lindsey and Bentil (fringe). This season Providence has 1 solid top 100 prospect in Lindsey and a fringe top 100 in Diallo. Georgetown has Govan, Peak, Derrickson, Johnson, Agau, and Campbell. Ed Cooley's just a much better coach in evaluating talent, developing talent short term and long and implementing talent into his system, that's not even arguable. But overall Georgetown has had more talent over the last 3 years then Providence and it's not really even close. We will just have to agree to disagree. Again, I don't think people use the term "talent" properly. I don't care where someone was ranked. Cameron and Hart were similarly ranked as high school students, yet I would take Hart any day over Cameron (and lots of other people lower ranked than Cameron). Once you're in college, it depends on how you play, not what people thought of you in high school. Yes, I do think Providence had better talent. It seems like your opinion comes more from high school rankings than actual results from playing collegiate basketball. Yes, Bentil might have been a fringe top 100 prospect, but he clearly punched way above that level - otherwise he would not have been drafted! On the other hand, our top 50 guys haven't been drafted. So, at the times, the games were played, Providence had better players. Again, having more starters in the top 100 is meaningless (and Campbell wasn't top 100) if they don't play up to that level. Now, I think it's far to criticize JT3's role in recruiting players (like passing on Hart). In fact, I think it's the most compelling argument against him and in favor of a change. But Ed Cooley isn't turning every fringe prospect into a draft pick either - coaching can help, but it's only a part of the total package. It seems the only thing you're doing to define talent is waiting for the players results.. did you really think Bentil would lead the league in scoring after his freshman year? An even better question is did you think Bentil was more talented than Copeland after their first year in college?
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Hoyas4Ever
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Feb 24, 2017 16:05:01 GMT -5
We will just have to agree to disagree. Again, I don't think people use the term "talent" properly. I don't care where someone was ranked. Cameron and Hart were similarly ranked as high school students, yet I would take Hart any day over Cameron (and lots of other people lower ranked than Cameron). Once you're in college, it depends on how you play, not what people thought of you in high school. Yes, I do think Providence had better talent. It seems like your opinion comes more from high school rankings than actual results from playing collegiate basketball. Yes, Bentil might have been a fringe top 100 prospect, but he clearly punched way above that level - otherwise he would not have been drafted! On the other hand, our top 50 guys haven't been drafted. So, at the times, the games were played, Providence had better players. Again, having more starters in the top 100 is meaningless (and Campbell wasn't top 100) if they don't play up to that level. Now, I think it's far to criticize JT3's role in recruiting players (like passing on Hart). In fact, I think it's the most compelling argument against him and in favor of a change. But Ed Cooley isn't turning every fringe prospect into a draft pick either - coaching can help, but it's only a part of the total package. It seems the only thing you're doing to define talent is waiting for the players results.. did you really think Bentil would lead the league in scoring after his freshman year? An even better question is did you think Bentil was more talented than Copeland after their first year in college? Bullseye....Etomic hit it on the nose!
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