vv83
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,328
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Post by vv83 on Feb 7, 2017 22:09:48 GMT -5
The main difference I see between us and Villanova, from a talent perspective: we have virtually nobody who can consistently dribble the ball through traffic and make a play on a remotely consistent basis. Villanova has at least three guys on the court at all times who can do this. Peak can do this sometimes, but usually when he has a straight line path to the hoop. He is a lot less effective when there is some traffic to negotiate. Everyone else - very little ballhandling ability, even from our guards. Mosely may develop some competence in this area over time. Maybe Mulmore as well, but he threw up some real terrible shots while trying to drive tonight.
Waters is really good at this which will be nice. But when you watch the really good college teams play - they pretty much all always have at least two guys who can attack off the dribble through some traffic. It just seems so much harder for us to generate offense at times because we are so dependent on executing off ball cuts and sharp passes, having our bigs execute in the low post (which all the modern data analysis shows is one of the least efficient ways of generating offense), or on hitting 3s that are often at least moderately contested. Very hard to generate open looks for long stretches without guards who can make plays off the dribble. This of course is not a new insight, but the difference between us and Villanova on this point tonight was really striking.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,355
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Post by calhoya on Feb 7, 2017 22:23:01 GMT -5
Sadly as the game tightened the team did as well. Peak a very good FT shooter misses 2 out of 3. Pryor throws up a poor shot , misses a dunk and misses a FT. Mulmore took poor shots, MD commits a careless foul, and Peak dribbles it off of his foot. Defense broke down completely. This team is fragile and always one foul, one turnover or poor shot away from collapse.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 7, 2017 22:24:56 GMT -5
Winners know how to win. Losers don't. That was starkly evident tonight. Nova git complacent in the second half, settled for jumpers and slacked off on defense. But with the game in the balance, they ran their offense, got inside with ease. We took wild shots, missed free throws, broke down at both ends.
Don't know how long it will take for us to learn how to win. Weeks? Months? Seasons?
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 7, 2017 22:27:48 GMT -5
Winners know how to win. Losers don't. That was starkly evident tonight. Nova git complacent in the second half, settled for jumpers and slacked off on defense. But with the game in the balance, they ran their offense, got inside with ease. We took wild shots, missed free throws, broke down at both ends. Don't know how long it will take for us to learn how to win. Weeks? Months? Seasons? Learn how to win? We have regressed in this regime to become something this program thought not possible. How can we learn to win from someone who took us this far backwards. If you are hoping for change with no change you can just keep on waiting.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Feb 7, 2017 22:28:07 GMT -5
T he main difference I see between us and Villanova, from a talent perspective: we have virtually nobody who can consistently dribble the ball through traffic and make a play on a remotely consistent basis. Villanova has at least three guys on the court at all times who can do this. Peak can do this sometimes, but usually when he has a straight line path to the hoop. He is a lot less effective when there is some traffic to negotiate. Everyone else - very little ballhandling ability, even from our guards. Mosely may develop some competence in this area over time. Maybe Mulmore as well, but he threw up some real terrible shots while trying to drive tonight. Waters is really good at this which will be nice. But when you watch the really good college teams play - they pretty much all always have at least two guys who can attack off the dribble through some traffic. It just seems so much harder for us to generate offense at times because we are so dependent on executing off ball cuts and sharp passes, having our bigs execute in the low post (which all the modern data analysis shows is one of the least efficient ways of generating offense), or on hitting 3s that are often at least moderately contested. Very hard to generate open looks for long stretches without guards who can make plays off the dribble. This of course is not a new insight, but the difference between us and Villanova on this point tonight was really striking.Its not just Villanova either. It is just about every team we play. The fact we are competitive in these games and have won some, is a testament to the guys' heart on the roster. Not PG, but multi-faceted guards that can play on or off the ball within the course of a game. Closest thing we've had to that in the III era was the Starks-DSR backcourt.
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,926
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 7, 2017 22:32:32 GMT -5
The main difference I see between us and Villanova, from a talent perspective: we have virtually nobody who can consistently dribble the ball through traffic and make a play on a remotely consistent basis. Villanova has at least three guys on the court at all times who can do this. Peak can do this sometimes, but usually when he has a straight line path to the hoop. He is a lot less effective when there is some traffic to negotiate. Everyone else - very little ballhandling ability, even from our guards. Mosely may develop some competence in this area over time. Maybe Mulmore as well, but he threw up some real terrible shots while trying to drive tonight. Waters is really good at this which will be nice. But when you watch the really good college teams play - they pretty much all always have at least two guys who can attack off the dribble through some traffic. It just seems so much harder for us to generate offense at times because we are so dependent on executing off ball cuts and sharp passes, having our bigs execute in the low post (which all the modern data analysis shows is one of the least efficient ways of generating offense), or on hitting 3s that are often at least moderately contested. Very hard to generate open looks for long stretches without guards who can make plays off the dribble. This of course is not a new insight, but the difference between us and Villanova on this point tonight was really striking. These skill can be taught.. When you see kids like Hart, Bridges, Jenkins, Divcenzo none of whom were lead guards coming out of HS making plays off the bounce consistently it shows that the Nova staff is teaching these skill(s).. Even Brunson is much better this season than last..
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 7, 2017 22:37:38 GMT -5
The main difference I see between us and Villanova, from a talent perspective: we have virtually nobody who can consistently dribble the ball through traffic and make a play on a remotely consistent basis. Villanova has at least three guys on the court at all times who can do this. Peak can do this sometimes, but usually when he has a straight line path to the hoop. He is a lot less effective when there is some traffic to negotiate. Everyone else - very little ballhandling ability, even from our guards. Mosely may develop some competence in this area over time. Maybe Mulmore as well, but he threw up some real terrible shots while trying to drive tonight. Waters is really good at this which will be nice. But when you watch the really good college teams play - they pretty much all always have at least two guys who can attack off the dribble through some traffic. It just seems so much harder for us to generate offense at times because we are so dependent on executing off ball cuts and sharp passes, having our bigs execute in the low post (which all the modern data analysis shows is one of the least efficient ways of generating offense), or on hitting 3s that are often at least moderately contested. Very hard to generate open looks for long stretches without guards who can make plays off the dribble. This of course is not a new insight, but the difference between us and Villanova on this point tonight was really striking. These skill can be taught.. When you see kids like Hart, Bridges, Jenkins, Divcenzo none of whom were lead guards coming out of HS making plays off the bounce consistently it shows that the Nova staff is teaching these skill(s).. Even Brunson is much better this season than last.. Taught by our staff or the theoretical next staff that understands the game?
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
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Post by This Just In on Feb 7, 2017 22:43:26 GMT -5
Final Thoughts:
Peak 21 pts, Pryor 20 pts, Hayes 6 pts lead the scoring. The Hoyas are not going to win many gms with the 3rd leading scorer having only 6 pts.
The game came down to untimely scoring droughts by Gtown or opportunistic scoring runs by Nova
Following a Rodney Pryor 3pt shot, the Hoyas were up 12 to 9 in the 1st half with 13:17 left Nova then outscores the Hoyas 33 to 16 to take a 43 to 28 lead into the locker rooms
Following a Rodney Pryor 2pt shot in the 2nd half with 3:49 on clock the the score is 60-58 Nova then goes on a 15-6 run to close out the game for the win 75 to 64
These 2 runs led to Gtown being outscored by Nova 48-22 in a game that ended up being an 11pt loss
Mediocre teams play up to the level of the competition and down to the level of the competition The reason why I took Georgetown plus the 15 points is that the Hoyas in general have played relative to their competition over the last several seasons I thought the team would be prepared and either keep the game close or make the game close at the end which this game did become close despite the Hoyas being down 15 at the half
Tonight's loss is not surprising, it is an continuation of a trend that has been happening when these 2 teams play in the New Big East
Nova is 1 of 5 teams that have a winning record vs JTIII in the NBE
JTIII Record Vs. Villanova: 1-7 (.125)
Final Grade: D
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DallasHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,634
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Post by DallasHoya on Feb 7, 2017 22:44:58 GMT -5
I'm no more an expert than anyone else here, but I've played and watched a lot of hoops in my long life. I have no idea why that group of players for Nova constitutes a team ranked higher than Kentucky, Kansas and Carolina. Not as tall or athletic as many of our guys. Amazing they are #2 in the nation and we are praying for an NIT bid. They win and and they are coming off a NC which helps their status. No one gave them a chance last year to beat UNC and the others they went through but a well coached team with an experienced set of players buying in can beat talent. But I hear you, they don't pass the eye test but that doesn't always matter. The scoreboard shows they scored more points than their opponents in 29 of their past 31 games. That's the only eye test that matters.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 7, 2017 22:47:50 GMT -5
They win and and they are coming off a NC which helps their status. No one gave them a chance last year to beat UNC and the others they went through but a well coached team with an experienced set of players buying in can beat talent. But I hear you, they don't pass the eye test but that doesn't always matter. The scoreboard shows they scored more points than their opponents in 29 of their past 31 games. That's the only eye test that matters. Agreed and I hope for the BE they make another big run to carry the torch for the BE that we clearly aren't capable of.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 7, 2017 22:56:41 GMT -5
Winners know how to win. Losers don't. That was starkly evident tonight. Nova git complacent in the second half, settled for jumpers and slacked off on defense. But with the game in the balance, they ran their offense, got inside with ease. We took wild shots, missed free throws, broke down at both ends. Don't know how long it will take for us to learn how to win. Weeks? Months? Seasons? Learn how to win? We have regressed in this regime to become something this program thought not possible. How can we learn to win from someone who took us this far backwards. If you are hoping for change with no change you can just keep on waiting. I recognize that it may well take a new leader to change the mindset. That is why I said it may take seasons to get there.
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vv83
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,328
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Post by vv83 on Feb 7, 2017 22:58:00 GMT -5
The scoreboard shows they scored more points than their opponents in 29 of their past 31 games. That's the only eye test that matters. Agreed and I hope for the BE they make another big run to carry the torch for the BE that we clearly aren't capable of. Nova is more dependent than most good teams on their outside shooting. When the shots go down, they are very tough to beat (first half tonight). When the shots are not falling, they are nothing special offensively (second half tonight). Last year - they had a pretty historic run of good outside shooting through the NCAA tournament. The constant is the defense, a clear sense of what they are trying to accomplish on both ends of the court, and overall competitive intensity. that stuff is there for them every game, so they can beat most teams even when they have a bad shooting game.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 7, 2017 22:58:33 GMT -5
Learn how to win? We have regressed in this regime to become something this program thought not possible. How can we learn to win from someone who took us this far backwards. If you are hoping for change with no change you can just keep on waiting. I recognize that it may well take a new leader to change the mindset. That is why I said it may take seadons to get there. How many seadons do we wait for change?
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DallasHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,634
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Post by DallasHoya on Feb 7, 2017 22:59:27 GMT -5
Didn't get home in time for the start of the game. We were leading 12-9 when I turned it on. Now down 25-15. From what I've seen, we don't belong on the floor with these guys. Sad! Your last line reminds me - whatever happened to the Donald Trump Hoya Twitter account?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 7, 2017 23:02:44 GMT -5
I recognize that it may well take a new leader to change the mindset. That is why I said it may take seadons to get there. How many seadons do we wait for change? If (at this point almost assuredly "when") we miss the tourney again, I would have no problem trying to find a new coach to try to restore a winning program. I tend to believe it would not happen, but even if it did, it would take at least a couple of seasons to become a factor again.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 7, 2017 23:08:46 GMT -5
How many seadons do we wait for change? If (at this point almost assuredly "when") we miss the tourney again, I would have no problem trying to find a new coach to try to restore a winning program. I tend to believe it would not happen, but even if it did, it would take at least a couple of seasons to become a factor again. Nice work FF. You are on record and you are correct. But why do we need to sit here and take this. It's not like the Thompson's used their own money to build this program and are living off that. It's nonsensical that we have to sit and have a coach who has been given far too many years to correct something that has just gotten worse while be paid a top 10 salary in his profession. All because his father helped build a program while being well paid and now having buildings named for him and his legacy. We don't owe them to carry on this like some curse that this is our only option. Not logical.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 7, 2017 23:10:42 GMT -5
Why Govan wasn't in earlier may have let the gap get too big. It's clear he has to be on the court as much as possible and Bradley ONLY to spell him... Bradley had more points and more rebounds than Jessie in fewer minutes. I am not saying that Hayes should get more time than Govan, but he still has a role on this team.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 7, 2017 23:15:18 GMT -5
Why Govan wasn't in earlier may have let the gap get too big. It's clear he has to be on the court as much as possible and Bradley ONLY to spell him... Bradley had more points and more rebounds than Jessie in fewer minutes. I am not saying that Hayes should get more time than Govan, but be still has a role on this team. That role would be mentor from the bench. Maybe III can add him to the staff next year like his other ex-players.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 7, 2017 23:19:51 GMT -5
Nice work FF. You are on record and you are correct. But why do we need to sit here and take this. It's not like the Thompson's used their own money to build this program and are living off that. It's nonsensical that we have to sit and have a coach who has been given far too many years to correct something that has just gotten worse while be paid a top 10 salary in his profession. All because his father helped build a program while being well paid and now having buildings named for him and his legacy. We don't owe them to carry on this like some curse that this is our only option. Not logical. Thanks for the original thought.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 7, 2017 23:25:07 GMT -5
Nice work FF. You are on record and you are correct. But why do we need to sit here and take this. It's not like the Thompson's used their own money to build this program and are living off that. It's nonsensical that we have to sit and have a coach who has been given far too many years to correct something that has just gotten worse while be paid a top 10 salary in his profession. All because his father helped build a program while being well paid and now having buildings named for him and his legacy. We don't owe them to carry on this like some curse that this is our only option. Not logical. Thanks for the original thought. As opposed to you carrying the torch for this program like some martyr? The Hoya Braveheart without the cause? Doesn't do any good other than making you feel better continually defending this but I suppose for you this is about you. You are not logical in anything you say so why listen to you anymore?
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