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Post by jctnhoya4ever on Jan 17, 2017 12:56:09 GMT -5
The problem with this team is we aren't getting enough talented players to win. When Hoyas was winning the players was going on to pro.the last 3-4 years they don't have enough talent to win.look at this team.really you have three good players and a pretty good freshman in Mosley that's it.the truth is Hayes is no good ,govan is talented but is lazy and doesn't play hard.cambell is awful,mulmore is god awful.and Caleb Johnson is not that good ,all they really have is peak,Pryor,derrickson that's about it.cameron,and morning never play.agou is a hard worker but just not skilled. You can't win with 3 players that can score.no depth that is any good.that is the real truth about it.when you have talent you win.with green,porter,sims,Hollis Thompson. Wallace.ewingjr,you win.no talent no wins. That is what is happened here.
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justsaying
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 709
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Post by justsaying on Jan 17, 2017 13:06:19 GMT -5
say it again, Talent Wins
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lda05816
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 606
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Post by lda05816 on Jan 17, 2017 13:12:05 GMT -5
Talent is subjective, but we are clearly not getting the amount of production we need from certain guys on the team. Also, you say Campbell is terrible but if I recall correctly you claimed he was going to be a star when he signed here. So is that a sign of a bad evaluation on JT3 and the staff or is player development to blame?
The biggest problem this team has IMO is they are extremely easy to game plan for. Offensively, run PNR using Brad/Jessie's man as the screener and good things happen. As long as the opposition doesn't have too many live ball turnovers, they have a good chance of keeping the Hoyas under 70 points. Defensively other teams obviously know how to defend whatever it is we run on offense. Some of the offensive issues are talent driven (not enough threats from the peremiter) but the defensive problems fall more on coaching to me. Things are clearly not working but yet we continue to see the same rotations for the most part. Maybe try playing Mourning and Cameron more, what's the risk? If the other team is killing us in the PNR, go small with Agua/Derrickson/Mourning at the 5.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
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Post by This Just In on Jan 17, 2017 13:13:34 GMT -5
The problem with this team is we aren't getting enough talented players to win. When Hoyas was winning the players was going on to pro.the last 3-4 years they don't have enough talent to win.look at this team.really you have three good players and a pretty good freshman in Mosley that's it.the truth is Hayes is no good ,govan is talented but is lazy and doesn't play hard.cambell is awful,mulmore is god awful.and Caleb Johnson is not that good ,all they really have is peak,Pryor,derrickson that's about it.cameron,and morning never play.agou is a hard worker but just not skilled. You can't win with 3 players that can score.no depth that is any good.that is the real truth about it.when you have talent you win.with green,porter,sims,Hollis Thompson. Wallace.ewingjr,you win.no talent no wins. That is what is happened here. Are you evaluating the Reg Season or Post Season in regards to getting enough talented players to win? Edit Note: As a follow up, lda05816 is right, you did state that Tre Campbell would be a star for the Hoyas in the recruiting tread. Therefore what has gone wrong as now you state he is terrible? Whose to blame? Also a general question: Why do posters keep stating IMO, if you write it then it is your opinion unless there are stats stated with the post. Why is there a need to state this is my opinion? |
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
Posts: 10,592
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Post by This Just In on Jan 17, 2017 13:44:32 GMT -5
say it again, Talent Wins Talent does not always win over bad coaching. Just ask the Dallas Cowboys or Cincinnati Bengals or The Seattle Seahawks that lost in the Super Bowl to New England due to their offensive coordinator (Pete Carrol did not overule the play call) thought it was a good idea from about the 2 yard line to bypass giving the ball to Marshawn Lynch even though the Patriots could not stop him to instead put Russell Wilson in the shot gun and throw a slant pattern to their 3rd string WR Ricardo Lockett, into the defensive teeth of the Patriots ... Just say that last part out loud... "Superbowl XLIX (49) on the line therefore, lets bypass giving the ball to All-Pro Marshawn Lynch from the 2 yard line and put Russell Wilson in the shot gun to throw a slant pattern to 3rd string WR Ricardo Lockett" Talent can only get you so far, but it takes coaching to get you over the hump. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 17, 2017 14:37:25 GMT -5
say it again, Talent Wins Talent does not always win over bad coaching. Just ask the Dallas Cowboys or Cincinnati Bengals or The Seattle Seahawks that lost in the Super Bowl to New England due to their offensive coordinator (Pete Carrol did not overule the play call) thought it was a good idea from about the 2 yard line to bypass giving the ball to Marshawn Lynch even though the Patriots could not stop him to instead put Russell Wilson in the shot gun and throw a slant pattern to their 3rd string WR Ricardo Lockett, into the defensive teeth of the Patriots ... Just say that last part out loud... "Superbowl XLIX (49) on the line therefore, lets bypass giving the ball to All-Pro Marshawn Lynch from the 2 yard line and put Russell Wilson in the shot gun to throw a slant pattern to 3rd string WR Ricardo Lockett" Talent can only get you so far, but it takes coaching to get you over the hump. Not necessarily. I think that it's really dependent on the situation. I do think the most important factor in winning or losing is the talent and players a coach has. I mean, take Joe Torre in baseball. He managed the Mets, Braves, and Cardinals for 15 seasons with middling success. Then he gets to the Yankees in 1996, and wins 4 World Series in 5 years. Did the Yankees win those championships because Torre was brilliant or because of the talent? I am sure Torre had some influence, but regardless of how good a coach he was, if he didn't have guys like Derek Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Pettite, etc. he wouldn't have won the championships. So really, it's a sliding scale. Does a coach help at the margins? Definitely. Does a good coach's strategy/guidance help? Of course. But ultimately, you need talent and we don't have enough. Now, as many have said, that's on JT3 too since he's basically the general manager, too, but I think the people who say that any other good coach could have this team in the top 25 are dead wrong. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 17, 2017 14:40:14 GMT -5
Also a general question: Why do posters keep stating IMO, if you write it then it is your opinion unless there are stats stated with the post. Why is there a need to state this is my opinion? People just do this as a figure of speech, and it carries over to writing. It's similar to when people say, "Honestly, I think..." when they are giving their opinion (when people will assume it's their honest opinion, anyway). If you listen to the way people speak, they do this all the time (including "in my opinion"). I try not to do this, but it happens every once in a while anyway. |
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b52legend
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 453
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Post by b52legend on Jan 17, 2017 14:47:33 GMT -5
I agree that Talent makes a huge difference, and is probably the most important factor in winning and losing. I disagree that this team doesn't have the talent to win. This team has the talent to make the tournament. They simply are not being coached up to the level necessary, or being placed in positions, to win.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,419 
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Post by the_way on Jan 17, 2017 15:21:31 GMT -5
I agree that Talent makes a huge difference, and is probably the most important factor in winning and losing. I disagree that this team doesn't have the talent to win. This team has the talent to make the tournament. They simply are not being coached up to the level necessary, or being placed in positions, to win. Not the NCAA tournament. |
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Post by jctnhoya4ever on Jan 17, 2017 18:37:04 GMT -5
No tre Campbell has not improved at all and I really thought he would be very good.he does same old stuff,bad passes out of control a lot.govan seems to me like he is not motivated to play hard.bad recruiting they last few years is killing this team.i rather have a player that plays hard then a talented player that isn't playing hard.like agou plays hard but isn't that skilled.mourning plays hard and never gets to play.hayes does the stupid fouls over and over.no one controls the paint guards rim.hayes and govan let's layups after layups.no attitude it's like they are playing pick up. Cameron should get some time because he can hit a shot sometime.the urgency is not here at all.i would start Mosley,Pryor, peak,mourning,and derrickson.let govan stay on bench.play Hayes backing up mourning.agou backing up derrickson.cameron back up Pryor.play Mosley 35 minutes if he isn't in foul trouble.cambell about 5 mins.cameron can back up Pryor and peak.sit Caleb Johnson.play starters 35 mins a game,if not in foul trouble.that is better then what Hoyas are doing now.at least mourning will rebound and play hard.govan won't.cameron can get hot and hit 2-3 threes in a game.if he played more he would get his stroke back he is a shooter.playing 2 mins ever three or 4 games he can't find no rhythm on his shot.he plays 1012 minutes a game I bet u he would score 6-8 points a game.cambell and mulmore don't get that combined.thats the only way this team has any chance at winning.if Hoyas keep playing govan,Caleb,mulmore they will keep struggling.mosley is getting better,and needs to look to score more.i would play the 5 I said but that is not going to happen.so I think the way jt3 is it won't happen.i predict a loosing record again.they may beat St. John's maybe,st johnns just beat Marquette at home so that is not a sure win.they will loose at Xavier,at nova,loose to creighton at home,loose to nova at home.loose at creighton.we may get 2-3 more wins.seton hall 1 time,maybe Marquette at home and maybe St. John's,probably beat DePaul 1 time if the do at best I see 4 more wins.10-9 now go 1-5 big east now,12 left in conference 4-8 would make them 14-17 5-13 in big east.that is sad but is where the team is at.so why not shorten the bench play mourning and Cameron.mourning will be a senior next year why not let him get some playing time for the experience.see how he does,for god sakes he is a mourning,he will play hard.jt3 is clueless.i am sick of this freaking train wreck.
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95hoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,298
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Post by 95hoya on Jan 17, 2017 20:42:22 GMT -5
Tre Campbell wasn't even the main point guard on his high school team. They let someone 2 years younger (Cowan) run the point over him. He was never going to be a star.
There is so much talent in the '18 class locally. We need to grab a stud or 2. There's enough for Nova and ND to get theirs and be enough left for us. I hear far more about other coaching staffs at local games than the Hoya staff.
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Post by hoya2x2010 on Jan 17, 2017 22:44:33 GMT -5
It wasn't too long ago that we had a 4-man class ranked in the top 5 in the country. For most (non UK, KU, UNC) programs, that makes your program. Gives it serious momentum at the very least. Now, either those kids were overrated or we did nothing to develop them. Either way, it's not the kids' fault. Tired of blaming them. They weren't highly sought after recruits because of their lack of talent.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 17, 2017 22:56:29 GMT -5
It wasn't too long ago that we had a 4-man class ranked in the top 5 in the country. For most (non UK, KU, UNC) programs, that makes your program. Gives it serious momentum at the very least. Now, either those kids were overrated or we did nothing to develop them. Either way, it's not the kids' fault. Tired of blaming them. They weren't highly sought after recruits because of their lack of talent. It takes a combination of coaching and effort to develop. It takes a combination of insufficient coaching and insufficient effort not to develop. |
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 18, 2017 1:55:45 GMT -5
Either way, it's not the kids' fault. Tired of blaming them. They weren't highly sought after recruits because of their lack of talent. It's not the kids fault, but the fact is that recruiting scouts and services often overrate or incorrectly analyze how good high school players are. There's a reason Josh Hart was ranked in the 70s and not the top 10. And why guys like Curry are stars in the NBA, but weren't recruited out of high school like that. The difference is that when Calipari is wrong, he's got a bench full of McDonalds All Americans waiting in the wings. When we are wrong, we have nobody who can readily fill the hole. |
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,863
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 18, 2017 8:54:53 GMT -5
Tre Campbell wasn't even the main point guard on his high school team. They let someone 2 years younger (Cowan) run the point over him. He was never going to be a star. There is so much talent in the '18 class locally. We need to grab a stud or 2. There's enough for Nova and ND to get theirs and be enough left for us. I hear far more about other coaching staffs at local games than the Hoya staff. Reading this bothers me more than the losses, definitely backs up my sense that the staff isn't out there recruiting enough.. |
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EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,863
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 18, 2017 9:03:18 GMT -5
Either way, it's not the kids' fault. Tired of blaming them. They weren't highly sought after recruits because of their lack of talent. It's not the kids fault, but the fact is that recruiting scouts and services often overrate or incorrectly analyze how good high school players are. There's a reason Josh Hart was ranked in the 70s and not the top 10. And why guys like Curry are stars in the NBA, but weren't recruited out of high school like that. The difference is that when Calipari is wrong, he's got a bench full of McDonalds All Americans waiting in the wings. When we are wrong, we have nobody who can readily fill the hole. Being overrated doesn't always have to translate to poor production.. Ok, we/ they overestimated how good the 2014 class was but having only 1 of the 4 progress in any meaningful way is something different.. There seems to be something wrong at the core of Gtowns program right now.. Nova lost Booth & Spellman, they were replaced by Divencenzo & Reynolds, neither were HS All Americans.. |
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by drquigley on Jan 18, 2017 11:24:46 GMT -5
I think the bigger issue may be not whether our coaches can judge high school talent and recruit well but rather whether the recruits we want WANT US!! If we are just screwing up and not judging high school talent well then that is something that can be corrected with new coaches or better scouting. But if top recruits are avoiding us then we have a major systemic problem. This is what is scaring me. That we are losing top recruits because they don't want to play for Georgetown. Anyone else have this feeling? Any indication (reports, rumors) that this is true?
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 18, 2017 11:57:02 GMT -5
I think the bigger issue may be not whether our coaches can judge high school talent and recruit well but rather whether the recruits we want WANT US!! If we are just screwing up and not judging high school talent well then that is something that can be corrected with new coaches or better scouting. But if top recruits are avoiding us then we have a major systemic problem. This is what is scaring me. That we are losing top recruits because they don't want to play for Georgetown. Anyone else have this feeling? Any indication (reports, rumors) that this is true? Seven of our last 10 recruits are top 100 and 9 of 10 are 4-star recruits. So it seems we can still get quality recruits. But we've literally landed three point guards in TEN YEARS! Starks, Campbell, and now Waters are our only high school recruits in that span listed as a point guard. Are PGs avoiding us? Are we avoiding them? Do we think a ranked shooting guard is better than an unranked PG? Do we not think we should try to have a point guard? Is our desperate attempt to get Mulmore and now the recruiting of Waters a sign JTIII realizes not having a floor general might be an error? Not sure. |
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lda05816
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 606
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Post by lda05816 on Jan 18, 2017 13:10:16 GMT -5
I think the bigger issue may be not whether our coaches can judge high school talent and recruit well but rather whether the recruits we want WANT US!! If we are just screwing up and not judging high school talent well then that is something that can be corrected with new coaches or better scouting. But if top recruits are avoiding us then we have a major systemic problem. This is what is scaring me. That we are losing top recruits because they don't want to play for Georgetown. Anyone else have this feeling? Any indication (reports, rumors) that this is true? Seven of our last 10 recruits are top 100 and 9 of 10 are 4-star recruits. So it seems we can still get quality recruits. But we've literally landed three point guards in TEN YEARS! Starks, Campbell, and now Waters are our only high school recruits in that span listed as a point guard. Are PGs avoiding us? Are we avoiding them? Do we think a ranked shooting guard is better than an unranked PG? Do we not think we should try to have a point guard? Is our desperate attempt to get Mulmore and now the recruiting of Waters a sign JTIII realizes not having a floor general might be an error? Not sure. The PG issue has been discussed at length and that's definitely been part of the problem. But I would extend it to guards in general. College basketball is a guards game and without good guards, it's very tough to compete. We have a nice stable of front court players right now but teams know we want to pound it in the post. The Providence defensive game plan was to sag off of our guards to take the paint touches away and it worked. The traditional big man is fading away in basketball and our recruiting needs to change to reflect that. |
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bigskyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bigskyhoya on Jan 18, 2017 13:23:17 GMT -5
In recent years, we have lost consistently to teams that most everyone on this Board would agree had inferior talent. A game here and there can be explained away, but what rational explanation exists for this pattern other than a coaching issue?
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