hoyainla
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Post by hoyainla on Jan 19, 2017 13:39:25 GMT -5
This is the real problem with Georgetown. We are now on the deep discount rack!!! Or maybe thats a good thing.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 19, 2017 15:17:57 GMT -5
Calipari is a good coach too, don't sell him short.. You stated earlier that some players lack basic ball skills which is true but isn't it the staffs responsibility to teach these skills? Cal as an in-game coach is shaky. His talented rosters make-up for it. Against better talented teams, particularly in the NCAA's, he gets exposed. Basic ball skills or should I say raw talent needed to play at this level that something the coach can cultivate. But something has to be there. Outside of Peak, and maybe Derrickson, we have a collection of role players. Pryor looks good because of the limitation of the players around him. Role players are great as support. When they are asked to be go-to-guys or complimentary players, their limitation as role players hurts you. We have a deep roster in terms of quantity, but limited in quality Calipari won a lot at Umass without a stacked roster, he's definitely better than average.. It really reads like you're saying JT3 & staff has recruited a lot of kids who can't play the game, I don't agree..
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2017 15:51:17 GMT -5
Cal as an in-game coach is shaky. His talented rosters make-up for it. Against better talented teams, particularly in the NCAA's, he gets exposed. Basic ball skills or should I say raw talent needed to play at this level that something the coach can cultivate. But something has to be there. Outside of Peak, and maybe Derrickson, we have a collection of role players. Pryor looks good because of the limitation of the players around him. Role players are great as support. When they are asked to be go-to-guys or complimentary players, their limitation as role players hurts you. We have a deep roster in terms of quantity, but limited in quality Calipari won a lot at Umass without a stacked roster, he's definitely better than average.. It really reads like you're saying JT3 & staff has recruited a lot of kids who can't play the game, I don't agree.. Calipari had Marcus Camby, Loue Roe, and Donta Bright at UMASS when they beat our Iverson led squad. And his methods are shady. Not to say that makes you a bad coach. Both Boheim and Calhoun have/had shady methods, but can still coach. It is not that our guys can't play. Most of them can't compete at a high level. Effort is there, the ability is lacking. It is why we struggle in the Big East now.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 19, 2017 16:03:35 GMT -5
Effort is there, the ability is lacking. It is why we struggle in the Big East now. Effort is not there. Even JT3 mentioned it during the post-game conference. More evidence? Another opponent calls your defense lazy, Effort is definitley not there. why is the effort not there? Reflection of the coach. JT3 gets up for games vs. UCon and Syracuse, but not for Butler, Xavier and Providence. He's not consistant from one game to the other and his team reflects it.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2017 16:16:52 GMT -5
Effort is there, the ability is lacking. It is why we struggle in the Big East now. Effort is not there. Even JT3 mentioned it during the post-game conference. More evidence? Another opponent calls your defense lazy, Effort is definitley not there. why is the effort not there? Reflection of the coach. JT3 gets up for games vs. UCon and Syracuse, but not for Butler, Xavier and Providence. He's not consistant from one game to the other and his team reflects it. Effort meaning the guys aren't underachieving. This isn't an NCAA tournament team. Its not like we got up for UCONN and Syracuse. They just suck this year.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 19, 2017 16:33:49 GMT -5
Effort is not there. Even JT3 mentioned it during the post-game conference. More evidence? Another opponent calls your defense lazy, Effort is definitley not there. why is the effort not there? Reflection of the coach. JT3 gets up for games vs. UCon and Syracuse, but not for Butler, Xavier and Providence. He's not consistant from one game to the other and his team reflects it. Effort meaning the guys aren't underachieving. This isn't an NCAA tournament team. Its not like we got up for UCONN and Syracuse. They just suck this year. Effort as in these guys and coaching staff can give a lot more. This should be a tournament team. JT3 has pretty good record vs. Syracuse and UCon, when compared to his record vs. N BE schools.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 19, 2017 17:27:59 GMT -5
Calipari won a lot at Umass without a stacked roster, he's definitely better than average.. It really reads like you're saying JT3 & staff has recruited a lot of kids who can't play the game, I don't agree.. Calipari had Marcus Camby, Loue Roe, and Donta Bright at UMASS when they beat our Iverson led squad. And his methods are shady. Not to say that makes you a bad coach. Both Boheim and Calhoun have/had shady methods, but can still coach. It is not that our guys can't play. Most of them can't compete at a high level. Effort is there, the ability is lacking. It is why we struggle in the Big East now. Who was AI leading? If you want to tell me Calipari is a shady/slimy/conniving type person I wont argue with you but if we're being fair we have to admit he's a good coach.. Again it reads that you're saying the staff recruited many kids who can't play and can't be taught to play at this level.. I disagree about the effort level too, this team doesn't play hard consistently at all..
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2017 17:40:43 GMT -5
Calipari had Marcus Camby, Loue Roe, and Donta Bright at UMASS when they beat our Iverson led squad. And his methods are shady. Not to say that makes you a bad coach. Both Boheim and Calhoun have/had shady methods, but can still coach. It is not that our guys can't play. Most of them can't compete at a high level. Effort is there, the ability is lacking. It is why we struggle in the Big East now. Who was AI leading? If you want to tell me Calipari is a shady/slimy/conniving type person I wont argue with you but if we're being fair we have to admit he's a good coach.. Again it reads that you're saying the staff recruited many kids who can't play and can't be taught to play at this level.. I disagree about the effort level too, this team doesn't play hard consistently at all.. Cal is a great recruiter, average coach. To his credit, he gets the best talent. At Umass he recruited well. At Memphis and now Kentucky he is recruiting all-star teams. He out-talents opposing coaches with lesser teams. He does not outcoach them. If the game is close, he gets exposed. Kids play hard. They just aren't that good. The kids have to have something there for coaches to work. III has limited himself with the roster he has assembled. You can teach a guy to be a major-program player until you are blue in the face. Doesn't mean he will become one if the raw talent is not there from the start. III has the ability to develop guys. Guys like Henry Sims and Markel Starks. They didn't initially look like the players they eventually would become.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 19, 2017 18:05:01 GMT -5
Are you purposely ignoring JT3's post-game comments?
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 19, 2017 18:14:37 GMT -5
'96 team with AI could have won it all. We will have Waters next year, but we need to surround him with scorers.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 19, 2017 18:23:44 GMT -5
Effort is there, the ability is lacking. It is why we struggle in the Big East now. Effort is not there. Even JT3 mentioned it during the post-game conference. More evidence? Another opponent calls your defense lazy, Effort is definitley not there. why is the effort not there? Reflection of the coach. JT3 gets up for games vs. UCon and Syracuse, but not for Butler, Xavier and Providence. He's not consistant from one game to the other and his team reflects it. I do not listen to the postgame comments, but if the coach is stating that effort is a problem it makes me completely crazy that players like Reggie and Trey do not even get a look. I have never seen them play a game without effort--the results may not be great but effort is not a problem with these two kids. I would say the same is true of Kaleb, but he is now getting time. I don't believe that the problem is a lack of talent but rather the fit of the talent that we have. There are pieces that just do not complement each other. It's as if the coach has to choose between playing offense or defense because he cannot put together enough players who can or will do both at a reasonable level.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 19, 2017 18:50:47 GMT -5
I do not listen to the postgame comments, but if the coach is stating that effort is a problem it makes me completely crazy that players like Reggie and Trey do not even get a look. I have never seen them play a game without effort--the results may not be great but effort is not a problem with these two kids. I would say the same is true of Kaleb, but he is now getting time. Loved Rodney's honesty: “We’ve got to get into our stuff quicker. I think sometimes when we lag into our offense, that’s a reason why we’re not hitting those open shots because we’re not ready to shoot.” JT3 had to jump in: "we played slow" We are going against Xavier, the team that called GU players lazy. If we're not ready to fight for pride and outhustle Xavier, then our basketball program's situation is worse than I thought.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 19, 2017 19:12:36 GMT -5
Who was AI leading? If you want to tell me Calipari is a shady/slimy/conniving type person I wont argue with you but if we're being fair we have to admit he's a good coach.. Again it reads that you're saying the staff recruited many kids who can't play and can't be taught to play at this level.. I disagree about the effort level too, this team doesn't play hard consistently at all.. Cal is a great recruiter, average coach. To his credit, he gets the best talent. At Umass he recruited well. At Memphis and now Kentucky he is recruiting all-star teams. He out-talents opposing coaches with lesser teams. He does not outcoach them. If the game is close, he gets exposed. Kids play hard. They just aren't that good. The kids have to have something there for coaches to work. III has limited himself with the roster he has assembled. You can teach a guy to be a major-program player until you are blue in the face. Doesn't mean he will become one if the raw talent is not there from the start. III has the ability to develop guys. Guys like Henry Sims and Markel Starks. They didn't initially look like the players they eventually would become. You skipped over the 1st question in my previous post.. Lou Roe wasn't on that team that beat Gtown in the Elite 8.. While at Umass Calipari went to a sweet 16, Elite 8 and a FF4 in a 5 year span with only one 1st round pick(Camby) but we can agree to disagree on Calipari.. If Sims & Starks are the baseline for talent level you think JT3 needs in order to get production out of kids then I really do think the program has a big hill to climb..
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Jan 19, 2017 19:17:29 GMT -5
Calipari had Marcus Camby, Loue Roe, and Donta Bright at UMASS when they beat our Iverson led squad. And his methods are shady. Not to say that makes you a bad coach. Both Boheim and Calhoun have/had shady methods, but can still coach. It is not that our guys can't play. Most of them can't compete at a high level. Effort is there, the ability is lacking. It is why we struggle in the Big East now. Who was AI leading?If you want to tell me Calipari is a shady/slimy/conniving type person I wont argue with you but if we're being fair we have to admit he's a good coach.. Again it reads that you're saying the staff recruited many kids who can't play and can't be taught to play at this level.. I disagree about the effort level too, this team doesn't play hard consistently at all.. Etomic..that team had , in addition to AI, three guys who had long NBA careers...Jerome Williams, Othella Harrington and Jahidi White. The shooting guard, Victor Page was one of the most talented guard in Hoya history, would lead the BE in scoring the next year and was an NBA player, if not for his various personal issues. That team really should have won the title and was far superior to UMass..but we cannot blame JtIII for that one!
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Jan 19, 2017 19:41:58 GMT -5
Who was AI leading?If you want to tell me Calipari is a shady/slimy/conniving type person I wont argue with you but if we're being fair we have to admit he's a good coach.. Again it reads that you're saying the staff recruited many kids who can't play and can't be taught to play at this level.. I disagree about the effort level too, this team doesn't play hard consistently at all.. Etomic..that team had , in addition to AI, three guys who had long NBA careers...Jerome Williams, Othella Harrington and Jahidi White. The shooting guard, Victor Page was one of the most talented guard in Hoya history, would lead the BE in scoring the next year and was an NBA player, if not for his various personal issues. That team really should have won the title and was far superior to UMass..but we cannot blame JtIII for that one![/b] That team would have beaten UMASS if the refs had not allowed Travieoso and Padilla to foul AI and Vic all game. We also would have won if RAllen doesn't make that lucky shot in the BECG. If we had the #1 seed out in the southeast we would have been in the FF matched up against Syracuse. I like out chances against UK in the Finals......I digress.....
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2017 20:08:28 GMT -5
Cal is a great recruiter, average coach. To his credit, he gets the best talent. At Umass he recruited well. At Memphis and now Kentucky he is recruiting all-star teams. He out-talents opposing coaches with lesser teams. He does not outcoach them. If the game is close, he gets exposed. Kids play hard. They just aren't that good. The kids have to have something there for coaches to work. III has limited himself with the roster he has assembled. You can teach a guy to be a major-program player until you are blue in the face. Doesn't mean he will become one if the raw talent is not there from the start. III has the ability to develop guys. Guys like Henry Sims and Markel Starks. They didn't initially look like the players they eventually would become. You skipped over the 1st question in my previous post.. Lou Roe wasn't on that team that beat Gtown in the Elite 8.. While at Umass Calipari went to a sweet 16, Elite 8 and a FF4 in a 5 year span with only one 1st round pick(Camby) but we can agree to disagree on Calipari.. If Sims & Starks are the baseline for talent level you think JT3 needs in order to get production out of kids then I really do think the program has a big hill to climb.. You are right about Cal at UMASS. That was probably his best coaching job as a coach. Now he had players. Just not the stacked teams he would recruit at Memphis and Kentucky. But again, too many choke jobs at Memphis and KY in the NCAA tournament with stacked teams to say he is a good coach. Vacated wins at both UMASS and Memphis? Nah. You are right, we agree to disagree. Yes, Iverson led. Not as what one would deem as a leader, but the best player on the team. Just cited guys who III developed. They are just examples. Not what we necessarily need exactly. Our team would be better with both of them right now though. We just need good players in general. They are out there. He doesn't have to go the Cal or Coach K route. Other Big East teams are recruiting well enough with lower-tier players. III and his staff just haven't been able to land them to help themselves on game day lately.
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Post by jctnhoya4ever on Jan 19, 2017 20:26:18 GMT -5
I never thought Hoyas would struggle this bad last year,now 1-5 in big east this year.i don't get how jt3 has let this happen in 2 years.we would before have a bad year and go to nit.then bounce back go to NCAA tournament.but the last year and half is just hard to understand what has happened.i hate it,and it seems like jt3 will still be here no matter how bad the team is.i wish Hoyas would make a change from the Thompsons and go with another coach.if this team is playing this bad it is time for a new direction.i am sad to see a Hoyas program this bad now.something isn't right with the whole program now.the team doesn't seem to play hard enough defense.prior Hoyas teams played good defense that's how they won.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Jan 19, 2017 22:02:35 GMT -5
But why haven't we landed them? That is what is killing me. Are we just horrible at judging talent or is the talent we need not just wanting (or maybe due to sacdemics not able) to come to GU? To me that is the question.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2017 23:07:05 GMT -5
But why haven't we landed them? That is what is killing me. Are we just horrible at judging talent or is the talent we need not just wanting (or maybe due to sacdemics not able) to come to GU? To me that is the question. Yes for both in the bold. Still not an issue where you see comparable programs within our own conference winning and successful. Or you look at Bennett's success at Virginia. Or Bo Ryan's time at Wisconsin. III (and/or his staff) have a habit of misjudging talent, particularly guard talent at this level. Guards have always been important in college basketball. All the talk about Big Man U with JT2, we forget John Duren, Sleepy Floyd, Mike Jackson, Wingate, Broadnax, Gene Smith, Tillmon, Bryant, Charles Smith, Page, Iverson, etc. You have to have some guards that can effectively handle the rock break down a defense, create their own shot. Right now on the roster, we have none. How many guards have we had like this in III's era? Wright, DSR, and Starks? 3 in over 10 years. Players want playing time and want to be showcased. As a guard, would top-flight recruits or 2nd-tier recruits want to play at G-town and III's system where the guard position is/was not emphasized or well represented? With III changing his system, maybe that is why he is doing it. Maybe Waters is a start of things to come. But again he will have to prove himself at the college level. And he'll need help in the backcourt.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 20, 2017 2:47:57 GMT -5
It's really not fruitful to engage hoyasaxa2003 at this point. He refuses to see what's obvious - the common thread in this downward spiral is JT3. He blames the players and their lack of talent, which a) isn't true and b) even if true, is also JT3's fault, for either recruiting the wrong kids or failing to develop them and turn them into a cohesive unit. To say nothing of the fact that it's utter balderdash to claim that only the most talented teams (based on rankings or NBA potential) are capable of success in today's college environment. There are so many example of how wrong that is it's impossible to list, but one need only look back to last April for one. Of course, he somehow consistently dismisses Villanova's success because... why again? He has a different reason every time. God bless his optimism and his excuse-making for JT3, but at this point he has been proven wrong beyond a doubt. Disengage. guru, I'm not sure why you are on this again. I think other posters can decide whether they want to respond to my posts. You're not the HoyaTalk hall monitor. But, the main reason why I am responding is that you completely misrepresent my viewpoints. You say "He blames the players and their lack of talent." This is absurd. I am not blaming the players for anything. I am simply saying the overall talent level is below what we have had in the past. And yes, I do think you can fairly blame JT3 for that. That's JT3's job, and the poor recruiting and some of the busts are on him. But, I don't blame the players. It's not their fault. In fact, what makes your post truly ridiculous is the fact that I frequently defend our players. For example, (1) I was generally supportive of Josh Smith when others ripped him, (2) I have defended the team against posts implying that they do not put in enough effort, and (3) I have defended other players who have been criticized for not being dedicated, like Lubick. So before you try to represent my viewpoints, make sure you get it right. Also, I have never dismissed Villanova's success. I am not sure what you're talking about. What I have said is that most teams that have won national championships in the modern era have not done it the way Villanova did (i.e., relying largely on 3-4 year college players). Nearly ever team that has won a national championship in recent years has had NBA talent (and by that, I mean players that actually make the NBA, not fans saying so). I actually do think Villanova is a good model for being competitive in the college landscape. As far as your assertion that I have been "proven wrong beyond a doubt" that pretty much tells everyone what agenda you're pushing, not to mention your lack of understanding of what it means to prove something. To act like discussions about the coaching staff, etc., are easy and clear cut, and so clear that there shouldn't be debate just shows the lack of thought that some have put into the situation.
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