|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Jan 18, 2017 14:12:26 GMT -5
In recent years, we have lost consistently to teams that most everyone on this Board would agree had inferior talent. A game here and there can be explained away, but what rational explanation exists for this pattern other than a coaching issue? I would agree that in the March losses, we lost to teams with inferior talent. But, before last season, I don't think that was true. As far as this season, I really don't think our talent level is all that high. People keep lauding our talent, but the fact is we don't have any NBA surefire players, we don't have guards that can shoot, and we generally have a group of role players. Do we have more talent than DePaul and St. John's? Sure. Anybody else? Not so sure. I mean, really, look at the types of players we've had in the past: - 2006-2008: Solid NBA players in Green/Hibbert, marginal NBA types in Macklin, Summers, Ewing Jr., and a good solid guard in Wallace. 2008-2010: Solid NBA player in Greg Monroe. McDonalds All Americans in Wright/Freeman, and very solid guard in Jason Clark. 2010-2011: No NBA players except Sims and Hollis who eventually made it, but they also had Wright/Freeman who were very good college players. 2012: NBA players in Sims/Thompson, plus a very good guard in Jason Clark, and a very good freshman Otto Porer, with nice supporting players in Whittington, Starks, and Trawick. 2013: NBA 3rd draft pick Porter, plus very good supporting players in DSR/Starks. But really, this was Porter's team and he carried them until FGCU. 2014: This is where it begins to decline. Starks and DSR were very good players, and Josh Smith was very good offensively while eligible, but he didn't play the whole season. No NBA prospects. 2015: Again, Josh Smith is a very good offensive player, and DSR has a great season, but nobody else really does. No NBA prospects. 2015-2017: Last year DSR was good but couldn't carry the team by himself. Peak improved and had a good sophomore year. Even Copeland and Derrickson weren't bad. This year, Pyror largely fills the DSR role and everything else remains similar. Maybe there's NBA potential in Peak, but otherwise everyone else is far from it. So, this tells me a few things: - The last few years we haven't been nearly as talented as the previous JT3 teams. - We really aren't as talented as people like to think we are. If we were, we'd be doing better. As I've said before, a coach can have positive impacts at the margins, but you don't turn a mediocre team with middling talent into a top 25 team through a coaching change. - Does it really surprise anyone that our best teams under JT3 have been the ones with the most NBA-level talent?
|
|
friarj
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 104
|
Post by friarj on Jan 18, 2017 15:53:37 GMT -5
This will sound obvious but it's a combination of getting talent, getting kids that fit your system and the developing them. Bryce Cotton was anywhere from top 300 to unranked nationally and developed into a great BE player. Kris Dunn was a McDonald's all -american but developed into an all time BE player and now Kyron Cartwright, another unranked, or just a Top 300 player has developed into a nice BE point guard. Get the kids to buy in, then coach the heck out of them year after year.
|
|
lda05816
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 606
|
Post by lda05816 on Jan 18, 2017 16:22:40 GMT -5
In recent years, we have lost consistently to teams that most everyone on this Board would agree had inferior talent. A game here and there can be explained away, but what rational explanation exists for this pattern other than a coaching issue? I would agree that in the March losses, we lost to teams with inferior talent. But, before last season, I don't think that was true. As far as this season, I really don't think our talent level is all that high. People keep lauding our talent, but the fact is we don't have any NBA surefire players, we don't have guards that can shoot, and we generally have a group of role players. Do we have more talent than DePaul and St. John's? Sure. Anybody else? Not so sure. I mean, really, look at the types of players we've had in the past: - 2006-2008: Solid NBA players in Green/Hibbert, marginal NBA types in Macklin, Summers, Ewing Jr., and a good solid guard in Wallace. 2008-2010: Solid NBA player in Greg Monroe. McDonalds All Americans in Wright/Freeman, and very solid guard in Jason Clark. 2010-2011: No NBA players except Sims and Hollis who eventually made it, but they also had Wright/Freeman who were very good college players. 2012: NBA players in Sims/Thompson, plus a very good guard in Jason Clark, and a very good freshman Otto Porer, with nice supporting players in Whittington, Starks, and Trawick. 2013: NBA 3rd draft pick Porter, plus very good supporting players in DSR/Starks. But really, this was Porter's team and he carried them until FGCU. 2014: This is where it begins to decline. Starks and DSR were very good players, and Josh Smith was very good offensively while eligible, but he didn't play the whole season. No NBA prospects. 2015: Again, Josh Smith is a very good offensive player, and DSR has a great season, but nobody else really does. No NBA prospects. 2015-2017: Last year DSR was good but couldn't carry the team by himself. Peak improved and had a good sophomore year. Even Copeland and Derrickson weren't bad. This year, Pyror largely fills the DSR role and everything else remains similar. Maybe there's NBA potential in Peak, but otherwise everyone else is far from it. So, this tells me a few things: - The last few years we haven't been nearly as talented as the previous JT3 teams. - We really aren't as talented as people like to think we are. If we were, we'd be doing better. As I've said before, a coach can have positive impacts at the margins, but you don't turn a mediocre team with middling talent into a top 25 team through a coaching change. - Does it really surprise anyone that our best teams under JT3 have been the ones with the most NBA-level talent? It's not surprising that his best teams had the most talent, I think they are correlated. However, I don't agree that a coach can't make a team with mediocre talent into a top 25 team. How many surefire NBA guys did last year's Butler team have? There are examples all across the country of teams who are greater than the sum of its parts. JT3 hasn't shown the ability to do this and that reflects on his "coaching" ability.
|
|
skyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,496
|
Post by skyhoya on Jan 18, 2017 16:46:31 GMT -5
in the end, recruiting is up the the coach. the last couple of years, III has failed to make it happen. It is up to III to make it happen or step aside.
|
|
calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,358
|
Post by calhoya on Jan 18, 2017 17:08:36 GMT -5
It's not just getting the talent but knowing how to use it. If you coach a system you recruit for that system or you change the system to fit the skills of the kids you recruit. If you fail to recruit kids who can play together in the system being used, you lose.
|
|
|
Post by bankshot53 on Jan 18, 2017 17:20:42 GMT -5
The problem with this team is we aren't getting enough talented players to win. When Hoyas was winning the players was going on to pro.the last 3-4 years they don't have enough talent to win.look at this team.really you have three good players and a pretty good freshman in Mosley that's it.the truth is Hayes is no good ,govan is talented but is lazy and doesn't play hard.cambell is awful,mulmore is god awful.and Caleb Johnson is not that good ,all they really have is peak,Pryor,derrickson that's about it.cameron,and morning never play.agou is a hard worker but just not skilled. You can't win with 3 players that can score.no depth that is any good.that is the real truth about it.when you have talent you win.with green,porter,sims,Hollis Thompson. Wallace.ewingjr,you win.no talent no wins. That is what is happened here.
|
|
|
Post by bankshot53 on Jan 18, 2017 17:21:32 GMT -5
The problem with this team is we aren't getting enough talented players to win. When Hoyas was winning the players was going on to pro.the last 3-4 years they don't have enough talent to win.look at this team.really you have three good players and a pretty good freshman in Mosley that's it.the truth is Hayes is no good ,govan is talented but is lazy and doesn't play hard.cambell is awful,mulmore is god awful.and Caleb Johnson is not that good ,all they really have is peak,Pryor,derrickson that's about it.cameron,and morning never play.agou is a hard worker but just not skilled. You can't win with 3 players that can score.no depth that is any good.that is the real truth about it.when you have talent you win.with green,porter,sims,Hollis Thompson. Wallace.ewingjr,you win.no talent no wins. That is what is happened here.
|
|
|
Post by bankshot53 on Jan 18, 2017 17:22:44 GMT -5
The problem with this team is we aren't getting enough talented players to win. When Hoyas was winning the players was going on to pro.the last 3-4 years they don't have enough talent to win.look at this team.really you have three good players and a pretty good freshman in Mosley that's it.the truth is Hayes is no good ,govan is talented but is lazy and doesn't play hard.cambell is awful,mulmore is god awful.and Caleb Johnson is not that good ,all they really have is peak,Pryor,derrickson that's about it.cameron,and morning never play.agou is a hard worker but just not skilled. You can't win with 3 players that can score.no depth that is any good.that is the real truth about it.when you have talent you win.with green,porter,sims,Hollis Thompson. Wallace.ewingjr,you win.no talent no wins. That is what is happened here. Bingo!
|
|
tgo
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 802
|
Post by tgo on Jan 18, 2017 17:45:13 GMT -5
The problem is not talent.
You guys are insane if you think there is no talent on this team. Last year's team, on paper, was the most talented we have seen in a long time. Deeper than 2007. It has height, good shooters, speed. These were highly rated recruits so it is not just my opinion that they are talented. The one thing we dont have is a good passing powerforward who can get the ball in the high post and dominate a game from there by giving good passes, hitting foul line jumpers and taking it to the hoop. JT3's best teams have had that. Roy developed into that, and since they we had Monroe and Porter and when we havent had that guy, we have not lived up to the sum of our parts.
We have lost in the post season to a less talented team every year since 2007.
|
|
guru
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,605
|
Post by guru on Jan 18, 2017 18:26:17 GMT -5
I would agree that in the March losses, we lost to teams with inferior talent. But, before last season, I don't think that was true. As far as this season, I really don't think our talent level is all that high. People keep lauding our talent, but the fact is we don't have any NBA surefire players, we don't have guards that can shoot, and we generally have a group of role players. Do we have more talent than DePaul and St. John's? Sure. Anybody else? Not so sure. I mean, really, look at the types of players we've had in the past: - 2006-2008: Solid NBA players in Green/Hibbert, marginal NBA types in Macklin, Summers, Ewing Jr., and a good solid guard in Wallace. 2008-2010: Solid NBA player in Greg Monroe. McDonalds All Americans in Wright/Freeman, and very solid guard in Jason Clark. 2010-2011: No NBA players except Sims and Hollis who eventually made it, but they also had Wright/Freeman who were very good college players. 2012: NBA players in Sims/Thompson, plus a very good guard in Jason Clark, and a very good freshman Otto Porer, with nice supporting players in Whittington, Starks, and Trawick. 2013: NBA 3rd draft pick Porter, plus very good supporting players in DSR/Starks. But really, this was Porter's team and he carried them until FGCU. 2014: This is where it begins to decline. Starks and DSR were very good players, and Josh Smith was very good offensively while eligible, but he didn't play the whole season. No NBA prospects. 2015: Again, Josh Smith is a very good offensive player, and DSR has a great season, but nobody else really does. No NBA prospects. 2015-2017: Last year DSR was good but couldn't carry the team by himself. Peak improved and had a good sophomore year. Even Copeland and Derrickson weren't bad. This year, Pyror largely fills the DSR role and everything else remains similar. Maybe there's NBA potential in Peak, but otherwise everyone else is far from it. So, this tells me a few things: - The last few years we haven't been nearly as talented as the previous JT3 teams. - We really aren't as talented as people like to think we are. If we were, we'd be doing better. As I've said before, a coach can have positive impacts at the margins, but you don't turn a mediocre team with middling talent into a top 25 team through a coaching change. - Does it really surprise anyone that our best teams under JT3 have been the ones with the most NBA-level talent? It's not surprising that his best teams had the most talent, I think they are correlated. However, I don't agree that a coach can't make a team with mediocre talent into a top 25 team. How many surefire NBA guys did last year's Butler team have? There are examples all across the country of teams who are greater than the sum of its parts. JT3 hasn't shown the ability to do this and that reflects on his "coaching" ability. It's really not fruitful to engage hoyasaxa2003 at this point. He refuses to see what's obvious - the common thread in this downward spiral is JT3. He blames the players and their lack of talent, which a) isn't true and b) even if true, is also JT3's fault, for either recruiting the wrong kids or failing to develop them and turn them into a cohesive unit. To say nothing of the fact that it's utter balderdash to claim that only the most talented teams (based on rankings or NBA potential) are capable of success in today's college environment. There are so many example of how wrong that is it's impossible to list, but one need only look back to last April for one. Of course, he somehow consistently dismisses Villanova's success because... why again? He has a different reason every time. God bless his optimism and his excuse-making for JT3, but at this point he has been proven wrong beyond a doubt. Disengage.
|
|
Eurostar
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,094
|
Post by Eurostar on Jan 18, 2017 19:06:21 GMT -5
I think the "lack of talent" argument is ridiculous. Who was an NBA talent on last years Nova team or this years? Josh Hart? LJ is projected higher.
As a trio, LJ, Derrickson, Pryor are arguably the most "talented" trio we've had. Match that with "the next great Georgetown big man" Govan and some role players, and we honestly should have a team that is in the top 25. The fact that this team will be under .500 for the year is a disgrace.
|
|
|
Post by hoya2x2010 on Jan 18, 2017 23:17:08 GMT -5
I think the "lack of talent" argument is ridiculous. Who was an NBA talent on last years Nova team or this years? Josh Hart? LJ is projected higher. As a trio, LJ, Derrickson, Pryor are arguably the most "talented" trio we've had. Match that with "the next great Georgetown big man" Govan and some role players, and we honestly should have a team that is in the top 25. The fact that this team will be under .500 for the year is a disgrace. this. Plus, copeland was on a track towards the NBA after his freshman season that came to a remarkable screeching halt.
|
|
eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
|
Post by eagle54 on Jan 18, 2017 23:31:26 GMT -5
I think the "lack of talent" argument is ridiculous. Who was an NBA talent on last years Nova team or this years? Josh Hart? LJ is projected higher. As a trio, LJ, Derrickson, Pryor are arguably the most "talented" trio we've had. Match that with "the next great Georgetown big man" Govan and some role players, and we honestly should have a team that is in the top 25. The fact that this team will be under .500 for the year is a disgrace. this. Plus, copeland was on a track towards the NBA after his freshman season that came to a remarkable screeching halt. The new lack of talent argument is more subterfuge used by the faithful. Don't fall for it. It's getting harder for them to defend this but remember they will try everything. But remember we are still a bad program with no future as it stands. New system and all.
|
|
blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,761
Member is Online
|
Post by blueandgray on Jan 18, 2017 23:57:55 GMT -5
Talent is subjective, but we are clearly not getting the amount of production we need from certain guys on the team. Also, you say Campbell is terrible but if I recall correctly you claimed he was going to be a star when he signed here. So is that a sign of a bad evaluation on JT3 and the staff or is player development to blame? The biggest problem this team has IMO is they are extremely easy to game plan for. Offensively, run PNR using Brad/Jessie's man as the screener and good things happen. As long as the opposition doesn't have too many live ball turnovers, they have a good chance of keeping the Hoyas under 70 points. Defensively other teams obviously know how to defend whatever it is we run on offense. Some of the offensive issues are talent driven (not enough threats from the peremiter) but the defensive problems fall more on coaching to me. Things are clearly not working but yet we continue to see the same rotations for the most part. Maybe try playing Mourning and Cameron more, what's the risk? If the other team is killing us in the PNR, go small with Agua/Derrickson/Mourning at the 5. Talent is subjective??
|
|
Just Cos
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Eat 'em up Hoyas
Posts: 1,506
|
Post by Just Cos on Jan 19, 2017 0:02:08 GMT -5
MD has NBA potential
|
|
blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,761
Member is Online
|
Post by blueandgray on Jan 19, 2017 0:02:56 GMT -5
Guys, we don't have enough scorers. I cringe when the ball gets passed to mulmore, Campbell or Johnson for a wide open three. We often play all three guys at the same time.....train wreck.
|
|
eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
|
Post by eagle54 on Jan 19, 2017 0:07:29 GMT -5
Guys, we don't have enough scorers. I cringe when the ball gets passed to mulmore, Campbell or Johnson for a wide open three. We often play all three guys at the same time.....train wreck. Who is to blame for that genius?
|
|
|
Post by bearsandbulls on Jan 19, 2017 0:30:35 GMT -5
The problem is at Georgetown one of a legacy. JT was a great coach and took G'town to heights not before seen. He also did so for a long, long time. Now, we are at a time when we have just dedicated the new athletic facility to him, and his son has been coaching for a period of time. Mostly good, lately not so. So what do you do? Fire the son with dad sitting in the front row, and with his statue in the new building? Tough call.
My call, is that either the coach has to coach or the AD has to take charge. The seats go more empty at Verizon game after game. I like the talent on this team. But even if you don't like the talent who is responsible? I think thought must be given to a "legacy" situation. I can tell you this would not happen at a public BB power.
|
|
lda05816
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 606
|
Post by lda05816 on Jan 19, 2017 6:25:40 GMT -5
Talent is subjective, but we are clearly not getting the amount of production we need from certain guys on the team. Also, you say Campbell is terrible but if I recall correctly you claimed he was going to be a star when he signed here. So is that a sign of a bad evaluation on JT3 and the staff or is player development to blame? The biggest problem this team has IMO is they are extremely easy to game plan for. Offensively, run PNR using Brad/Jessie's man as the screener and good things happen. As long as the opposition doesn't have too many live ball turnovers, they have a good chance of keeping the Hoyas under 70 points. Defensively other teams obviously know how to defend whatever it is we run on offense. Some of the offensive issues are talent driven (not enough threats from the peremiter) but the defensive problems fall more on coaching to me. Things are clearly not working but yet we continue to see the same rotations for the most part. Maybe try playing Mourning and Cameron more, what's the risk? If the other team is killing us in the PNR, go small with Agua/Derrickson/Mourning at the 5. Talent is subjective?? Absolutely, look at NBA Draft boards. Think they're all the same? Now I understand not all of that is due to talent. There are people on this board who think this team has plenty of talent and those who think it's lacking. People talked about how talented Copeland was for years but he wasn't producing. I'd argue he's just athletic and his basketball talent was lacking. Player evaluations vary from person to person.
|
|
calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,358
|
Post by calhoya on Jan 19, 2017 8:16:05 GMT -5
Guys, we don't have enough scorers. I cringe when the ball gets passed to mulmore, Campbell or Johnson for a wide open three. We often play all three guys at the same time.....train wreck. Yes this is very true and not just limited to these three. Mosley is inconsistent, Hayes has been a disaster even in close, Agau is solid only from the FT line. The lineups have been baffling to say the least. There are times when we literally have one player out on the court who can reasonably shoot from distance. This team--the deepest team in years according to all the preseason hype--is filled with one dimensional players. The parts do not complement each other--so few have decent ball skills--watch Agau, Kaleb, Hayes, and others try to handle the ball in traffic--it is a TO waiting to happen.
|
|