the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2017 9:26:05 GMT -5
Guys, we don't have enough scorers. I cringe when the ball gets passed to mulmore, Campbell or Johnson for a wide open three. We often play all three guys at the same time.....train wreck. Yes this is very true and not just limited to these three. Mosley is inconsistent, Hayes has been a disaster even in close, Agau is solid only from the FT line. The lineups have been baffling to say the least. There are times when we literally have one player out on the court who can reasonably shoot from distance. This team--the deepest team in years according to all the preseason hype--is filled with one dimensional players. The parts do not complement each other--so few have decent ball skills--watch Agau, Kaleb, Hayes, and others try to handle the ball in traffic--it is a TO waiting to happen. This right here. A lot of these guys lack basic fundamental ball skills. That is a talent issue. Coack K could have this team, and you would see the same results, maybe even worse. On top of that, their games don't complement one another. There really isn't one cohesive unit that III can put out on the floor.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Jan 19, 2017 9:37:45 GMT -5
Guys, we don't have enough scorers. I cringe when the ball gets passed to mulmore, Campbell or Johnson for a wide open three. We often play all three guys at the same time.....train wreck. Yes this is very true and not just limited to these three. Mosley is inconsistent, Hayes has been a disaster even in close, Agau is solid only from the FT line. The lineups have been baffling to say the least. There are times when we literally have one player out on the court who can reasonably shoot from distance. This team--the deepest team in years according to all the preseason hype--is filled with one dimensional players. The parts do not complement each other--so few have decent ball skills--watch Agau, Kaleb, Hayes, and others try to handle the ball in traffic--it is a TO waiting to happen. I don't disagree that we could use more scorers, but every team could use more scorers. Most D1, except the Dukes and Kentuckys and a few other blue bloods teams, these days are made up of a few (2-4) players who you have confidence can consistently score the ball and then a bunch of solid role players that help to compliment those scorers. That is no different than the line-up for the Hoyas. Could they use a few more pure shooters/scorers? Sure they could, but most teams would say that. The key here is to find a way to put the other role payers into positions where they have a chance to succeed. All of these guys are D1 scholarship players, so they have some level of talent or they would to have been recruited. If the system does not lend itself to the strengths of enough of the players then you need to modify the system to match the skills you do have. I agree that both Hayes and Govan have no ball skills and should not be asked to handle the ball at all on the perimeter, but every game they are both asked to handle the ball at the high post and find a way to make plays. This is just not something either of them are good at and never have been. Find a way to use them as screeners, low post offensive players and rebounders and keep the ball out of their hands on the perimeter. Should they be leading the Big East with their current talent? No. Should they be 1-5 at this point? No
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 19, 2017 9:54:00 GMT -5
Yes this is very true and not just limited to these three. Mosley is inconsistent, Hayes has been a disaster even in close, Agau is solid only from the FT line. The lineups have been baffling to say the least. There are times when we literally have one player out on the court who can reasonably shoot from distance. This team--the deepest team in years according to all the preseason hype--is filled with one dimensional players. The parts do not complement each other--so few have decent ball skills--watch Agau, Kaleb, Hayes, and others try to handle the ball in traffic--it is a TO waiting to happen. This right here. A lot of these guys lack basic fundamental ball skills. That is a talent issue. Coack K could have this team, and you would see the same results, maybe even worse. On top of that, their games to don't complement one another. There really isn't one cohesive unit that III can put out on the floor. I disagree re: Coach K. He has at least 7 McD's per roster per year, gets all the breaks from the refs, the NCAA and the ACC, and he still cannot win enough to reflect all of those advantages. And when things don't go his way during the season, then there's always the back or something else to take a leave. He is not as good a coach as he is made out to be. With this team, Coach K would be in the operating room and one of his assistants would be coaching the games.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2017 10:33:45 GMT -5
This right here. A lot of these guys lack basic fundamental ball skills. That is a talent issue. Coack K could have this team, and you would see the same results, maybe even worse. On top of that, their games to don't complement one another. There really isn't one cohesive unit that III can put out on the floor. I disagree re: Coach K. He has at least 7 McD's per roster per year, gets all the breaks from the refs, the NCAA and the ACC, and he still cannot win enough to reflect all of those advantages. And when things don't go his way during the season, then there's always the back or something else to take a leave. He is not as good a coach as he is made out to be. With this team, Coach K would be in the operating room and one of his assistants would be coaching the games. Nah, Calapari would. He is an average coach. He literally has NBA rosters. Coach K is a good coach though. The man has 5 NCAA titles,brought Olympic basketball back on top, and he can't win enough? No wonder people want JTIII fired around here. lol
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Jan 19, 2017 10:45:19 GMT -5
I think the "lack of talent" argument is ridiculous. Who was an NBA talent on last years Nova team or this years? Josh Hart? LJ is projected higher. As a trio, LJ, Derrickson, Pryor are arguably the most "talented" trio we've had. Match that with "the next great Georgetown big man" Govan and some role players, and we honestly should have a team that is in the top 25. The fact that this team will be under .500 for the year is a disgrace. I don't buy the lack of talent roster as a defense of the coach, since the coach is the one who assembles the talent and is supposed to develop the talent. But I also don't agree that the talent on this team is as high as some think it is. There is more to "talent" than one dimension. I hate calling out individual players and I am just using him as an example, but Pryor has one dimension that he excels at -- scoring (although not so much lately since he has been going up against BE level competition). Other than that -- in the other facets of his game -- he is an average BE player, at best. This really goes along with what others have pointed out - JTIII recruits are too limited. For example, most of them don't know how to play D at all, or they play it poorly trying to do what JTIII is asking them to do (e.g. over-help). Whatever the reason, most of us agree that it is on the coaching.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jan 19, 2017 10:54:35 GMT -5
I disagree re: Coach K. He has at least 7 McD's per roster per year, gets all the breaks from the refs, the NCAA and the ACC, and he still cannot win enough to reflect all of those advantages. And when things don't go his way during the season, then there's always the back or something else to take a leave. He is not as good a coach as he is made out to be. With this team, Coach K would be in the operating room and one of his assistants would be coaching the games. Nah, Calapari would. He is an average coach. He literally has NBA rosters. Coach K is a good coach though. The man has 5 NCAA titles,brought Olympic basketball back on top, and he can't win enough? No wonder people want JTIII fired around here. lol Calipari is a good coach too, don't sell him short.. You stated earlier that some players lack basic ball skills which is true but isn't it the staffs responsibility to teach these skills?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 19, 2017 11:04:45 GMT -5
Yes this is very true and not just limited to these three. Mosley is inconsistent, Hayes has been a disaster even in close, Agau is solid only from the FT line. The lineups have been baffling to say the least. There are times when we literally have one player out on the court who can reasonably shoot from distance. This team--the deepest team in years according to all the preseason hype--is filled with one dimensional players. The parts do not complement each other--so few have decent ball skills--watch Agau, Kaleb, Hayes, and others try to handle the ball in traffic--it is a TO waiting to happen. This right here. A lot of these guys lack basic fundamental ball skills. That is a talent issue. Coack K could have this team, and you would see the same results, maybe even worse. On top of that, their games don't complement one another. There really isn't one cohesive unit that III can put out on the floor. Fundamental ball skills can be developed. We apparently aren't doing that very well. The talent issue - are we mis-evaluating the talent of our recruits, or just unable to recruit better talent? Same question for the cohesiveness issue.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 19, 2017 11:10:13 GMT -5
I disagree re: Coach K. He has at least 7 McD's per roster per year, gets all the breaks from the refs, the NCAA and the ACC, and he still cannot win enough to reflect all of those advantages. And when things don't go his way during the season, then there's always the back or something else to take a leave. He is not as good a coach as he is made out to be. With this team, Coach K would be in the operating room and one of his assistants would be coaching the games. Nah, Calapari would. He is an average coach. He literally has NBA rosters. Coach K is a good coach though. The man has 5 NCAA titles,brought Olympic basketball back on top, and he can't win enough? No wonder people want JTIII fired around here. lol Give that roster to Izzo and see what happens. lol
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2017 11:23:16 GMT -5
Nah, Calapari would. He is an average coach. He literally has NBA rosters. Coach K is a good coach though. The man has 5 NCAA titles,brought Olympic basketball back on top, and he can't win enough? No wonder people want JTIII fired around here. lol Calipari is a good coach too, don't sell him short.. You stated earlier that some players lack basic ball skills which is true but isn't it the staffs responsibility to teach these skills? Cal as an in-game coach is shaky. His talented rosters make-up for it. Against better talented teams, particularly in the NCAA's, he gets exposed. Basic ball skills or should I say raw talent needed to play at this level that something the coach can cultivate. But something has to be there. Outside of Peak, and maybe Derrickson, we have a collection of role players. Pryor looks good because of the limitation of the players around him. Role players are great as support. When they are asked to be go-to-guys or complimentary players, their limitation as role players hurts you. We have a deep roster in terms of quantity, but limited in quality.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2017 11:26:34 GMT -5
Nah, Calapari would. He is an average coach. He literally has NBA rosters. Coach K is a good coach though. The man has 5 NCAA titles,brought Olympic basketball back on top, and he can't win enough? No wonder people want JTIII fired around here. lol Give that roster to Izzo and see what happens. lol I like Coach Izzo, but he nor Bo Ryan could resurrect this roster. Only coach I could see doing something with this roster is the GOAT himself, Larry Brown. lol
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95hoya
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Post by 95hoya on Jan 19, 2017 11:52:33 GMT -5
Rodney Pryor is not that talented. He's a volume scorer on a bad team. Your definition of talent isn't the same as mine. How many guys on the current roster play prominent roles in a top 10 to 15 team? Only Peak is a definite. We have a bunch of one dimensional players. Most of the teans we have played this year, excluding the cupcakes, have better talent in my eyes.
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lda05816
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Post by lda05816 on Jan 19, 2017 12:00:54 GMT -5
Rodney Pryor is not that talented. He's a volume scorer on a bad team. Your definition of talent isn't the same as mine. How many guys on the current roster play prominent roles in a top 10 to 15 team? Only Peak is a definite. We have a bunch of one dimensional players. Most of the teans we have played this year, excluding the cupcakes, have better talent in my eyes. Rodney could absolutely play a prominent role as a shooter on a top 10 team. He's struggling as a main scorer and doesn't have enough scorers around him to ease the burden. On a team with multiple offensive threats he would get more open shots and he's proven he can knock them down consistently
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Jan 19, 2017 12:12:38 GMT -5
Rodney Pryor is not that talented. He's a volume scorer on a bad team. Your definition of talent isn't the same as mine. How many guys on the current roster play prominent roles in a top 10 to 15 team? Only Peak is a definite. We have a bunch of one dimensional players. Most of the teans we have played this year, excluding the cupcakes, have better talent in my eyes. Rodney could absolutely play a prominent role as a shooter on a top 10 team. He's struggling as a main scorer and doesn't have enough scorers around him to ease the burden. On a team with multiple offensive threats he would get more open shots and he's proven he can knock them down consistently So that means he isn't that good. He is a 4th or 5th option at best by what you just described. He is on a bad team, so he looks good jacking up shots.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Jan 19, 2017 12:27:33 GMT -5
Pryor would have a hard time getting off the deep end of the Bench on a top 10 team.
His handle is weak, passing and vision are almost non-existent,Does he even play D. Not a bad rebounder and he can't run a break with or without the ball. Not singling him out but the statement applies to almost everyone on the roster at varying levels.
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95hoya
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Post by 95hoya on Jan 19, 2017 12:29:27 GMT -5
Rodney could absolutely play a prominent role as a shooter on a top 10 team. He's struggling as a main scorer and doesn't have enough scorers around him to ease the burden. On a team with multiple offensive threats he would get more open shots and he's proven he can knock them down consistently So that means he isn't that good. He is a 4th or 5th option at best by what you just described. He is on a bad team, so he looks good jacking up shots. He's a terrible defender. Not a good passer and an okay rebounder. He's a really good shooter. Sounds like a guy that gets limited minutes as a role player on a good team depending on matchups. Derrickson and Govan are the same. Players at this stage of their careers would get role player minutes on a top team. I'm not saying that is their upside. Both can in time be go to scorers and 30 minutes a night type anywhere, but that's not who they are now. Peak would play a significant role anywhere. He plays hard and contributes in many ways. I don't think anyone else on our roster gets a lot of minutes on a top 25 team at this point in their careers.
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lda05816
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Post by lda05816 on Jan 19, 2017 12:31:03 GMT -5
Pryor would have a hard time getting off the deep end of the Bench on a top 10 team. His handle is weak, passing and vision are almost non-existent,Does he even play D. Not a bad rebounder and he can't run a break with or without the ball. Not singling him out but the statement applies to almost everyone on the roster at varying levels. I agree he's not polished in the areas you bring up but you don't think he could help a team like Louisville (215th in the country in EFG%) who struggles mightily to score?
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Jan 19, 2017 12:40:16 GMT -5
Pryor would have a hard time getting off the deep end of the Bench on a top 10 team. His handle is weak, passing and vision are almost non-existent,Does he even play D. Not a bad rebounder and he can't run a break with or without the ball. Not singling him out but the statement applies to almost everyone on the roster at varying levels. I agree he's not polished in the areas you bring up but you don't think he could help a team like Louisville (215th in the country in EFG%) who struggles mightily to score? No Pitino demands effort on the defensive side.
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Bigs"R"Us
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Post by Bigs"R"Us on Jan 19, 2017 12:42:55 GMT -5
Pryor's a beast. He is expected to do too much for this team on offense. Besides he and Peak, we have little. Maybe, Derrickson on a good day. A true PG would help P+P in a big way.
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lda05816
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Post by lda05816 on Jan 19, 2017 12:45:11 GMT -5
I agree he's not polished in the areas you bring up but you don't think he could help a team like Louisville (215th in the country in EFG%) who struggles mightily to score? No Pitino demands effort on the defensive side. Good point. Still think he could fill a role on a top team as a shooter. I agree he has a lot of areas to improve on however
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Jan 19, 2017 12:49:13 GMT -5
I find this lack of "talent" argument absurd, for several reasons:
1. We're not talking about whether we have talent for a top 10 team or a contending team. Do people really think we lack enough talent to make the tournament? To have a winning record? Charitably, we're going to finish 5-13 in conference and third from last. Do you think we have a worse roster than 7 teams in conference? Are Marquette and Providence so laden with better talent that they'll comfortably make the tournament while we don't even make the NIT? I'd bet there are 30 coaches in college basketball that would easily get this team in the tournament.
2. People act like talented players just emerge fully formed like Athena, so the fact that Campbell and Copeland and Cameron haven't developed means they were untalented. Coaching, especially at the age these kids are at, plays a huge role in development. Sure, some highly-ranked guys will be misses in any environment. But the fact that a roster full of 7 (or however many there were at the start of the season) top-100 kids lacks "fundamental" basketball skills is a sign that something is gravely wrong with player development.
3. The defensive adventures we've had for the last few seasons has little to do with lack of talent. Again, some guys are naturals and some guys aren't great defenders. But look at the basic mistakes we make routinely--the failure to identify shooters, the fly-by closeouts, the incessant overhelping, the obvious failure to communicate on rotations, the failure to pick up trailers. Those are caused by either lack of attention or confusion as to scheme/rotational responsibilities. That falls on the coaching. And I see nothing indicating that III knows how to design a defense for the post-rules change world.
4. And lastly, even if I'm wrong about all of this, and it is just a lack of talent issue or an issue of ill-fitting talent, that too falls on III. You can't say we lack a true PG when he's been vocal for years that we just need combo guards or guards who can play. We've had years of slower big men who struggle to defend the high pick and roll (Smith, Hayes, Govan), yet we haven't figured out a scheme to shield them or found a Hopkins-like replacement who can defend at that position. But hey, maybe Waters fixes everything. He certainly looks legit, though he might end up like LJ--an all-conference player on a bad team. I guess hoping that he fixes everything is all we really have right now.
I have long been a defender of III's, well past the point of pretty much everyone I know in real life. But I don't really see how that position is tenable any more. I was at school during the Esherick years, and I have the same feeling about the team now that I did back then. I'm just waiting for someone to tell me that making the tournament every year is an "unreasonable expectation."
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