bigskyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,095
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Post by bigskyhoya on Feb 28, 2017 16:09:17 GMT -5
A thorough analysis, and thoroughly depressing as well. Change cannot come soon enough.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2017 16:52:48 GMT -5
For those who don't want to read playtyler's entire post (although it is worth reading), it's summed up in this quote buried in the middle:
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 28, 2017 18:00:23 GMT -5
BnG is my favorite poster on Hoyatalk. But, I don’t get why he is killing this kid. What does that accomplish? First, we are lucky that such a highly ranked kid chose to come to Georgetown. I am not sure when that is going to happen again. If you don’t work out, you get labeled a “bust”. He was good Freshman year. Took a step back Sophomore year, when the entire team was in disarray and then had a couple good games this year before completely losing it. In the first game against Upstate he did not miss a shot, scored 10 pts in 20 minutes. In the next game he had a double-double against Maryland, where he was our leading rebounder and leader in assists. In the next game against Ark. State he was our 3rd leading scorer and 3rd leading rebounder. Then we went to Maui and he had a terrible trip. He may have gotten injured there, not sure. No one gets back surgery if there is no problem. Then he is gone. To say that he was terrible this year is an overstatement. He could have really helped this team. But, he was injured, maybe, and he did not want to play for Thompson any more. Maybe that’s on him. Or … maybe that’s on Thompson. Here is what I see. The upperclassmen are supposed to be strength of our team. In August, after Kenner League, we had the following upperclassmen: Reggie Cameron, Bradley Hayes, Rodney Pryor, L.J. Peak, Akoy Agau, Trey Mourning, Jonathan Mulmore, Tre Campbell, Paul White and Isaac Copeland. That is 10 Juniors and Seniors. This team should be pretty good (not to mention underclassmen Johnson, Derrickson, Govan and Mosely). Only these players (minus L.J. and Pryor) don’t seem to have learned how to play winning basketball or, as several teams have said, don’t seem to want to play hard for Thompson. Cameron is a non-factor, Hayes (mysteriously) is a non-factor, White is gone in August???, Copeland is gone in early December???, Agau is someone who could not get off the bench in Louisville (for a reason), Mourning can’t get off our bench (even when dad is watching, not sure the reason ), Mulmore has the worst statistics in the Big East www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/players/playerpage/2268073/jonathan-mulmore , Campbell doesn’t play either. SO that is Mourning, Campbell, Hayes, White, Cameron and Copeland who don’t play or quit and Agau and Mulmore who aren’t good at winning basketball. That is a lot of upperclassmen who are not contributing. To single Copeland out is really unfair. This is an epidemic. One that I would argue is clearly institutional. There was a great article written many years ago by Ed Persia (former Princeton PG under JTIII) written for NBC Sports about JT III. In the article he said he basically had no relationship with the players, he was old school, he was curt, stern and generally unapproachable. Persia said it was not enjoyable playing for JTIII and that JTIII was constantly critical of the players. I have been looking everywhere for this article and can’t find it. I think this is JT III’s personality and the kids these days (and maybe never) don’t respond to it. They don’t improve. They don’t want to play hard and run through walls for this guy. He is not a good in-game coach. Our plays out of timeouts are a joke. My favorite part of this entire season (other than the first 7/8’s of the Maryland game) was the inside the Huddle where they flashed to our huddle and there was no JT III only Akoy Agua urging on his teammates. This was classic. I have never seen this. A feature that is supposed to focus on the coaching, but there is no coach. Thompson enters the huddles during our timeouts hilariously late. What is he waiting for… Bill Self, Coach K, etc. do not do this. Some wait a beat and talk to their coaches and then enter. He waits almost the entire timeout. Our end game sequences have been historically bad. See Maryland. See every other close game this year. Our defense is terrible. We switch everything, even when not necessary. If you watch a good team that plays a switching man to man, the defender first tries to stay with his man (fight over/under screens) before the switch is in place. We switch at the whiff of a screen. If we switched less (only when necessary), we would have many less terrible mismatches. Watch Kansas, Virginia, Duke, Arizona play defense and how they switch and then watch us. It is a horror show. I am not going to get into the fact that we run a pattern offense. No one runs a pattern offense any more. It takes too long to develop and is too easy to disrupt. I guess other than motivating the players, developing their skills so they improve as they become upperclassmen, in-game coaching, end-game coaching, offensive scheme and defensive scheme, JT III is a pretty good coach. Some of our kids graduate, there have been no recruiting scandals (though Egerson and Latavious Williams recruitment were pretty bad academically), our kids don’t get in trouble and seem like generally good kids. The only other comment I would make is that JTIII is very lucky, not only in his bloodlines. As much as it pains me to say this, Jeff Green walked against Vanderbilt in the Sweet 16 and we were super lucky to come back against Carolina in the Great 8, down 11 in the second half, when Carolina went 1-23 over a 15 minute span, including overtime. If they had called that travel against Jeff or UNC had made just one more shot in the second half, JTIII would not be looked upon as even remotely successful. The losses against, Ohio, FGCU, Davidson (admittedly with a red hot Steph in the second half, though we were up 16), NC State, Utah (to a lesser degree), would be the evidence that he is not a great motivator, in-game and end-game coach and his players don’t play hard for him. We have had lots of talent underachieve while they were here (Summers, Sapp (for entertainment check out last year’s story on Sapp destroying “Whole Lotta Game” in epic NYC game), Freeman, Wright, Monroe, DSR, Copeland, Josh Smith, Mikael Hopkins, Lubick, Benimon, Macklin). If you imagine a world where they called the walk on Jeff Green and there is no win in the Sweet 16, does that change JT III’s entire resume and does any last person hanging out on JT III island jump? The losses are bad. Really bad. But, the evidence is more in the regular embarrassment (FGCU, Ohio) and clear dissention in the program. He has lost the team and now the fans. This season White transferred super-late, Copeland transferred in-season, Cameron was suspended indefinitely, something also happened with Campbell and who knows what happened with Hayes and Mourning. That is a lot of issues with upperclassmen. He has lost the team … and his job. I don't like the "bust" label either. But, come on, Isaac did not play well this year. You're severely cherry-picking your stats. Yes, he did not miss any shots against Upstate, but he took only three from the field. He may have had a double-double against UMD, but he was 3-14 from the field (and 0-3 from three). Yes, he led us in assists, but that was with two! (He did have a big rebounding game for sure.) Against Ark. State, he was 0-2 from three, but otherwise played OK offensively. In all three games -- and throughout his career -- he struggled mightily defensively. Maybe he was hurt. I'm not suggesting I know why he struggled. But he completely lost the ability to shoot from anywhere outside. And that was his most significant weapon.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Feb 28, 2017 18:31:53 GMT -5
Now tell me exactly how his skills got way worse. He came in with a flawed shot very flat. didn't really do a thing until almost mid January of his freshman year. Even then was a bit of an inconsistent scorer. skill wise very ave. regarding handle and passing White was clearly the better passer. Athleticsm ok nothing special decent first hop but no second bounce.defensively little lateral quickness and didn't put much effort into that part of the game. This pretty much sums it up everything that is is wrong: JTIII is being defended with well, at least the players didn't get any worse... where did I defend Thompson.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Feb 28, 2017 18:36:10 GMT -5
Now tell me exactly how his skills got way worse. He came in with a flawed shot very flat. didn't really do a thing until almost mid January of his freshman year. Even then was a bit of an inconsistent scorer. skill wise very ave. regarding handle and passing White was clearly the better passer. Athleticsm ok nothing special decent first hop but no second bounce.defensively little lateral quickness and didn't put much effort into that part of the game. Well, for one, this was incredibly obvious via the eye test. If you didn't see a deterioration in his game, I'm not sure what to say. He was an effective, albeit not a star, player freshman year, but he was certainly trending in that direction. While stats don't tell the whole story, his shooting #s did drop yearly (45%, 43%, 27% - I understand jr year was a very small sample size, but...27% is 27%), his 3PT #s plummeted (39% to 27% to 0% - again a small sample size, but 0-11 is 0-11). Beyond that, there was no noticeable movement in any area despite many more minutes, via the eye test or stats, except for fouls (which increased). I can't believe I just spent time trying to convince somebody that Copeland got worse at gtown. Copeland in reality had less than a dozen good games with a very flawed shot. How many 6-7 guys get their shots blocked. The point i was trying to make is that as a whole we give way too much in the way of accolades about a player based upon potential vs. results as an overall player. I just never saw in his game very much to deserve the high accolades.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Feb 28, 2017 22:26:11 GMT -5
The Truth Poster. Just another clear indication its all about Eagle. I'm been waiting for something new from him, but haven't seen an original thought in about 1000 posts. That's not quite as good as your streak that is closing in on 5k with nothing even remotely interesting to say. Hard to do but congrats on that. You are one of the gems we have here.
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Post by hoya2x2010 on Mar 1, 2017 10:27:13 GMT -5
Well, for one, this was incredibly obvious via the eye test. If you didn't see a deterioration in his game, I'm not sure what to say. He was an effective, albeit not a star, player freshman year, but he was certainly trending in that direction. While stats don't tell the whole story, his shooting #s did drop yearly (45%, 43%, 27% - I understand jr year was a very small sample size, but...27% is 27%), his 3PT #s plummeted (39% to 27% to 0% - again a small sample size, but 0-11 is 0-11). Beyond that, there was no noticeable movement in any area despite many more minutes, via the eye test or stats, except for fouls (which increased). I can't believe I just spent time trying to convince somebody that Copeland got worse at gtown. Copeland in reality had less than a dozen good games with a very flawed shot. How many 6-7 guys get their shots blocked. The point i was trying to make is that as a whole we give way too much in the way of accolades about a player based upon potential vs. results as an overall player. I just never saw in his game very much to deserve the high accolades. That's a fair argument. I don't think we disagree as strongly as I thought, given your original post. Maybe overrated to start, but did deteriorate from whatever his starting point was...
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Mar 1, 2017 10:44:19 GMT -5
The Truth Poster. Just another clear indication its all about Eagle. I'm been waiting for something new from him, but haven't seen an original thought in about 1000 posts. That's not quite as good as your streak that is closing in on 5k with nothing even remotely interesting to say. Hard to do but congrats on that. You are one of the gems we have here. Again, nothing new. To be quite honest, in your short time here other than your campaign calling for the removal of Thompson, which the vast majority of those who still care to post here agree with,(you seem to fail to recognize that simple fact)I have seen little contribution to this forum. Dare I say one trick pony. Perhaps, that's some what unfair, but based upon my own personal impression the few valid points that you have raised here despite how often they are repeated adds very little to the discussion. In my own defense, which I believe is really unnecessary, I have engaged this board in debates, discussions, analysis and provided comments that at the very least have provided proof of a modicum of understanding of the game and the program. Sadly, and with some justification over the last few years, this forum has morphed into something far different than what it not too long ago. Other than your singular topic I have seen little if anything from you that exhibits to me that you have any understanding of what the game and the program is all about. That said, I don't know you but you clearly care about the direction of the program. We could even meet anonymously next week at Cafe 31 and find ourselves in much agreement about everything concerning the current state of the program Unfortunately that has not been shown to me by your posts here. Finally, let me ask you a semi-serious question. Have you taken or do you plan to take any additional steps other than your tiresome, repetitive and unoriginal post here to achieve your apparent reason for existence on this board.
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eagle54
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,471
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Post by eagle54 on Mar 1, 2017 21:09:56 GMT -5
That's not quite as good as your streak that is closing in on 5k with nothing even remotely interesting to say. Hard to do but congrats on that. You are one of the gems we have here. Again, nothing new. To be quite honest, in your short time here other than your campaign calling for the removal of Thompson, which the vast majority of those who still care to post here agree with,(you seem to fail to recognize that simple fact)I have seen little contribution to this forum. Dare I say one trick pony. Perhaps, that's some what unfair, but based upon my own personal impression the few valid points that you have raised here despite how often they are repeated adds very little to the discussion. In my own defense, which I believe is really unnecessary, I have engaged this board in debates, discussions, analysis and provided comments that at the very least have provided proof of a modicum of understanding of the game and the program. Sadly, and with some justification over the last few years, this forum has morphed into something far different than what it not too long ago. Other than your singular topic I have seen little if anything from you that exhibits to me that you have any understanding of what the game and the program is all about. That said, I don't know you but you clearly care about the direction of the program. We could even meet anonymously next week at Cafe 31 and find ourselves in much agreement about everything concerning the current state of the program Unfortunately that has not been shown to me by your posts here. Finally, let me ask you a semi-serious question. Have you taken or do you plan to take any additional steps other than your tiresome, repetitive and unoriginal post here to achieve your apparent reason for existence on this board. Just to stay on topic for a moment, Ike still can't play and is an a$$ for bad mouthing this program publicly. My short time here on this board is feeling like a lifetime. At least many are coming around and realizing what they should have several years ago. I'm sorry you haven't seen my contribution here but I can honestly say the same for you. You can say one trick pony or whatever you want as none of it bothers me. I have heard all that before but doesn't change the fact that I'm right and have been for some time. You don't need to defend yourself to me. I have no idea where you stand and many on this board play both sides and are non committal. I just apply common sense to the situation and don't care about the politics or administration's lack of a backbone to manage a multi million dollar program that they are responsible for. This has been a steady downward slide with no March success in a decade. You can call my posts tiresome, repetitive and unoriginal (I kind of like that) but I'll still be here posting the same as the base on this board tried to run everyone off who had a differing opinion by defending this for too long. If my posts are as you say then yours must be a downright waste of time because they certainly weren't memorable. The board can't put out the fires any longer as they are burning all around us and not just on this board but in the local and national media. Good luck too you in your agenda whatever that is and maybe I'll see you at Cafe 31.
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AltoSaxa
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,125
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Post by AltoSaxa on Mar 1, 2017 22:11:36 GMT -5
RDF was prescient
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DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,607
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Post by DanMcQ on Sept 12, 2017 20:03:36 GMT -5
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hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,489
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Post by hoyaboya on Sept 13, 2017 9:40:09 GMT -5
As a high schooler: A bit of a late bloomer, Copeland came on strong during a prep year. He was elevated to five-star status after a big-time prep school year where he showed a skilled faceup game. At Georgetown: Averaged 11.1 points, 5.4 rebounds and 2.0 assists per game as a sophomore. Expectations: Copeland actually played some as a junior before suffering a season-ending injury but has been ruled immediately eligible with two years remaining in Lincoln. The Huskers are in need of a big who can soften defenses with shooting and be relied upon for a bucket, and he's proven he can do it a high level. basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/news/bossi-s-best-remember-me-highly-ranked-transfers
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Post by professorhoya on Sept 13, 2017 13:45:10 GMT -5
I like how he's back up to a 5 star after spending his time here as a 4 star.
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hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,818
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Post by hoyazeke on Sept 13, 2017 15:23:25 GMT -5
Late bloomer? I thought the prep year hurt his ranking more than it helped? Anyways, I hope Ike does well. Not all people can follow a legend. He never really handled being the replacement for Mr. Porter.....
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Sept 13, 2017 16:21:39 GMT -5
I like how he's back up to a 5 star after spending his time here as a 4 star. ESPN had him as five star. I think the assessment quoted above is overly optimistic on him but for his own good I hope he does great.
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blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,762
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Post by blueandgray on Sept 14, 2017 1:00:08 GMT -5
Once a Hoya, always a Hoya. I hope he kicks butt!
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Sept 14, 2017 8:33:34 GMT -5
Best of luck to him. He has talent but needs to make the most of it.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Sept 14, 2017 11:14:42 GMT -5
Once a Hoya, always a Hoya. I hope he kicks butt! Generally I am of the same mindset as Elvado - once a player chooses to leave and no longer be a Hoya, he is dead to me. But last season was such a debacle in so many ways, I will give these guys a pass and hope they have success in their new programs.
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blueandgray
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,762
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Post by blueandgray on Sept 15, 2017 0:53:37 GMT -5
Having gotten to know some of the guys... they are good guys. I will especially miss Agau and White and wish them well.
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Post by dundermifflinhoya on Sept 18, 2017 14:46:41 GMT -5
Once a Hoya, always a Hoya. I hope he kicks butt! Generally I am of the same mindset as Elvado - once a player chooses to leave and no longer be a Hoya, he is dead to me. But last season was such a debacle in so many ways, I will give these guys a pass and hope they have success in their new programs. From what I can tell, these were great kids and positive representatives of the university. I appreciate the hard work and dedication they put into the program. At the end of the day, they are kids and should be able to make decisions they and those close to them feel are best.
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