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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Feb 28, 2017 2:37:40 GMT -5
This thread should be about Isaac Copeland being one of the biggest busts in Georgetown history. Yes, many on this board may agree with his sentiments regarding JT3, but that still doesn't exonerate him from making that tweet which was a classless move, nor does it make him a better basketball player in any way. People who know the kid may call him soft, aloof, arrogant....I prefer the word bust. The kid came in with a ton of hype...had a better than average freshman campaign, but still not worthy of any conference accolades. Could not play a lick of defense....and proceeded to get worse in every facet of the game. B U S T. Just out of curiosity - if everything clicks for Copeland and he blossoms into NBA lottery pick at Nebraska, which he was supposed to based on the early projections, would that be a testament that JT3 was not a good coach in developing players and using them appropriately to get the best out of them? Hart, who was nowhere ranked nearly as high as Copeland blossomed into a potential first round pick in the upcoming NBA draft, which nobody projected in the beginning. I am beginning to wonder how Hart/Jenkins would have fared here under JT3
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Feb 28, 2017 2:53:43 GMT -5
While his comments on twitter were classesless, you guys also have no idea what kind of interactions he had with the coaching staff here. What JT3 might have said to those players or handled them in the locker room might have prompted someone like Bowen, who spent 5 years here, to say "Karma"
If JT3 mistreated them while they were here, and i am not even talking about the PT, then does it warrant such classless tweets from them? Absolutely not. but again, we can only assume what happened behind the doors
And about someone posting that Copeland partying hard? Seen former Gtown players partying pretty hard while they were students here, and they turned out just fine by making into the NBA
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Feb 28, 2017 2:55:32 GMT -5
This thread should be about Isaac Copeland being one of the biggest busts in Georgetown history. Yes, many on this board may agree with his sentiments regarding JT3, but that still doesn't exonerate him from making that tweet which was a classless move, nor does it make him a better basketball player in any way. People who know the kid may call him soft, aloof, arrogant....I prefer the word bust. The kid came in with a ton of hype...had a better than average freshman campaign, but still not worthy of any conference accolades. Could not play a lick of defense....and proceeded to get worse in every facet of the game. B U S T. Just out of curiosity - if everything clicks for Copeland and he blossoms into NBA lottery pick at Nevada, which he was supposed to based on the early projections, would that be a testament that JT3 was not a good coach in developing players and using them appropriately to get the best out of them? Hart, who was nowhere ranked nearly as high as Copeland blossomed into a potential first round pick in the upcoming NBA draft, which nobody projected in the beginning. I am beginning to wonder how Hart/Jenkins would have fared here under JT3 Issac is at Nebraska.
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
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Post by This Just In on Feb 28, 2017 2:57:31 GMT -5
While his comments on twitter were classesless, you guys also have no idea what kind of interactions he had with the coaching staff here. What JT3 might have said to those players or handled them in the locker room might have prompted someone like Bowen, who spent 5 years here, to say "Karma" If JT3 mistreated them while they were here, and i am not even talking about the PT, then does it warrant such classless tweets from them? Absolutely not. but again, we can only assume what happened behind the doors And about someone posting that Copeland partying hard? Seen Roy and Jeff partying pretty hard while they were students here, and they turned out just fine Usually when players come in with a ton of hype and they don't live up to it, especially if they transfer elsewhere, there tends to be a fan backlash.
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Post by cosmopolitanhoya on Feb 28, 2017 3:02:08 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity - if everything clicks for Copeland and he blossoms into NBA lottery pick at Nevada, which he was supposed to based on the early projections, would that be a testament that JT3 was not a good coach in developing players and using them appropriately to get the best out of them? Hart, who was nowhere ranked nearly as high as Copeland blossomed into a potential first round pick in the upcoming NBA draft, which nobody projected in the beginning. I am beginning to wonder how Hart/Jenkins would have fared here under JT3 Issac is at Nebraska. Thanks - corrected
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Feb 28, 2017 8:25:43 GMT -5
This thread should be about Isaac Copeland being one of the biggest busts in Georgetown history. Yes, many on this board may agree with his sentiments regarding JT3, but that still doesn't exonerate him from making that tweet which was a classless move, nor does it make him a better basketball player in any way. People who know the kid may call him soft, aloof, arrogant....I prefer the word bust. The kid came in with a ton of hype...had a better than average freshman campaign, but still not worthy of any conference accolades. Could not play a lick of defense....and proceeded to get worse in every facet of the game. B U S T. Just out of curiosity - if everything clicks for Copeland and he blossoms into NBA lottery pick at Nebraska, which he was supposed to based on the early projections, would that be a testament that JT3 was not a good coach in developing players and using them appropriately to get the best out of them? Hart, who was nowhere ranked nearly as high as Copeland blossomed into a potential first round pick in the upcoming NBA draft, which nobody projected in the beginning. I am beginning to wonder how Hart/Jenkins would have fared here under JT3 I don't think you could hold Ike against JT3 because in his time on the Hilltop he got plenty of PT to prove his worth. He even got plenty of PT this season early until his play started to become a detriment to the team. As far as Hart and Jenkins, Jenkins would have been Reggie at GTown but Hart would have been good no matter where he went in my opinion. If a slow footed shooter doesn't have a drive and dish PG to set him up then he will be limited. When Jenkins/Hart arrived at Nova they have only had to focus on defense/hustle for Hart and shooting for Jenkins. Archie provided cleaner shot attempts for all of their wings. I would venture to say that Reggie probably shot his highest percentage his fresh/soph years. Those years he had Kel and Brilly to drive and dish...........
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Post by hoya2x2010 on Feb 28, 2017 9:12:51 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity - if everything clicks for Copeland and he blossoms into NBA lottery pick at Nebraska, which he was supposed to based on the early projections, would that be a testament that JT3 was not a good coach in developing players and using them appropriately to get the best out of them? Hart, who was nowhere ranked nearly as high as Copeland blossomed into a potential first round pick in the upcoming NBA draft, which nobody projected in the beginning. I am beginning to wonder how Hart/Jenkins would have fared here under JT3 I don't think you could hold Ike against JT3 because in his time on the Hilltop he got plenty of PT to prove his worth. He even got plenty of PT this season early until his play started to become a detriment to the team. As far as Hart and Jenkins, Jenkins would have been Reggie at GTown but Hart would have been good no matter where he went in my opinion. If a slow footed shooter doesn't have a drive and dish PG to set him up then he will be limited. When Jenkins/Hart arrived at Nova they have only had to focus on defense/hustle for Hart and shooting for Jenkins. Archie provided cleaner shot attempts for all of their wings. I would venture to say that Reggie probably shot his highest percentage his fresh/soph years. Those years he had Kel and Brilly to drive and dish........... If Copeland can't be used as an example for poor development, who can? His skills actually got WAY worse during his time here. And even if he had never touched a basketball before arriving, he had all the athleticism in the world to become a good player. I agree there were probably self-starting issues with Cope, but it seemed like those snowballed throughout his time here. Again, he's a college kid, so it's tough to speculate what was going on. But it's not exactly a GOOD sign for JT3 or the program that his apparent motivation and will to be great decreased to almost zero...
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KHoyaNYC
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Post by KHoyaNYC on Feb 28, 2017 9:29:06 GMT -5
I don't think you could hold Ike against JT3 because in his time on the Hilltop he got plenty of PT to prove his worth. He even got plenty of PT this season early until his play started to become a detriment to the team. As far as Hart and Jenkins, Jenkins would have been Reggie at GTown but Hart would have been good no matter where he went in my opinion. If a slow footed shooter doesn't have a drive and dish PG to set him up then he will be limited. When Jenkins/Hart arrived at Nova they have only had to focus on defense/hustle for Hart and shooting for Jenkins. Archie provided cleaner shot attempts for all of their wings. I would venture to say that Reggie probably shot his highest percentage his fresh/soph years. Those years he had Kel and Brilly to drive and dish........... If Copeland can't be used as an example for poor development, who can? His skills actually got WAY worse during his time here. And even if he had never touched a basketball before arriving, he had all the athleticism in the world to become a good player. I agree there were probably self-starting issues with Cope, but it seemed like those snowballed throughout his time here. Again, he's a college kid, so it's tough to speculate what was going on. But it's not exactly a GOOD sign for JT3 or the program that his apparent motivation and will to be great decreased to almost zero... The program has had too many transfers under JTIII period.
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madgesiq92
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Post by madgesiq92 on Feb 28, 2017 9:30:46 GMT -5
This thread should be about Isaac Copeland being one of the biggest busts in Georgetown history. Yes, many on this board may agree with his sentiments regarding JT3, but that still doesn't exonerate him from making that tweet which was a classless move, nor does it make him a better basketball player in any way. People who know the kid may call him soft, aloof, arrogant....I prefer the word bust. The kid came in with a ton of hype...had a better than average freshman campaign, but still not worthy of any conference accolades. Could not play a lick of defense....and proceeded to get worse in every facet of the game. B U S T. Just out of curiosity - if everything clicks for Copeland and he blossoms into NBA lottery pick at Nebraska, which he was supposed to based on the early projections, would that be a testament that JT3 was not a good coach in developing players and using them appropriately to get the best out of them? Hart, who was nowhere ranked nearly as high as Copeland blossomed into a potential first round pick in the upcoming NBA draft, which nobody projected in the beginning. I am beginning to wonder how Hart/Jenkins would have fared here under JT3 Agree, I expect Copeland to go on and do great things in his career after leaving Georgetown, much like McDonald All Americans Milton Bell and Michael Tate Venson.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 28, 2017 9:45:16 GMT -5
I expect Copeland to go on and do great things in his career after leaving Georgetown, much like McDonald All Americans Milton Bell and Michael Tate Venson. At least Tate played college basketball after Georgetown. Milton Bell never played at Richmond--his coach (Dick Tarrant) was quoted that "I guess he figured we could give him all A's, B's and C's because he could run, jump, and dunk."
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Feb 28, 2017 9:47:12 GMT -5
As much as I like to find fault with coach, there are too many unknowns to render judgment on whether Ike or Coach was to blame for his regression each year. I will be very interested to see how he performs at Nebraska. If he take a big step forward, I think that is another example of poor player development under III, however, I am not expecting that to be the case.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Feb 28, 2017 10:37:09 GMT -5
If Copeland can't be used as an example for poor development, who can? His skills actually got WAY worse during his time here. And even if he had never touched a basketball before arriving, he had all the athleticism in the world to become a good player. I agree there were probably self-starting issues with Cope, but it seemed like those snowballed throughout his time here. Again, he's a college kid, so it's tough to speculate what was going on. But it's not exactly a GOOD sign for JT3 or the program that his apparent motivation and will to be great decreased to almost zero... The program has had too many transfers under JTIII period. Now tell me exactly how his skills got way worse. He came in with a flawed shot very flat. didn't really do a thing until almost mid January of his freshman year. Even then was a bit of an inconsistent scorer. skill wise very ave. regarding handle and passing White was clearly the better passer. Athleticsm ok nothing special decent first hop but no second bounce.defensively little lateral quickness and didn't put much effort into that part of the game. Regarding transfers over the last 5 years i don't think we have had nearly enough. The flawed recruiting and evaluation of talent has been my biggest concern no matter what the rankings they may have. After watching over the last 5 plus years we are less atheletic and clearly less skilled. Over that time period too many recruits come in and I watch them in Nov and Dec and you just wonder can this kid really play at this level. In other programs many of these kids would be gone. To me, and I may be in a very small minority player evaluation and recruiting is the single biggest issue with the program.
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AltoSaxa
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Post by AltoSaxa on Feb 28, 2017 11:02:34 GMT -5
As with most things success breeds success and failure breeds failure both in recruiting and on the court.
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adlai
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Post by adlai on Feb 28, 2017 11:09:37 GMT -5
The program has had too many transfers under JTIII period. Now tell me exactly how his skills got way worse. He came in with a flawed shot very flat. didn't really do a thing until almost mid January of his freshman year. Even then was a bit of an inconsistent scorer. skill wise very ave. regarding handle and passing White was clearly the better passer. Athleticsm ok nothing special decent first hop but no second bounce.defensively little lateral quickness and didn't put much effort into that part of the game. This pretty much sums it up everything that is is wrong: JTIII is being defended with well, at least the players didn't get any worse...
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Post by hoya2x2010 on Feb 28, 2017 11:37:37 GMT -5
The program has had too many transfers under JTIII period. Now tell me exactly how his skills got way worse. He came in with a flawed shot very flat. didn't really do a thing until almost mid January of his freshman year. Even then was a bit of an inconsistent scorer. skill wise very ave. regarding handle and passing White was clearly the better passer. Athleticsm ok nothing special decent first hop but no second bounce.defensively little lateral quickness and didn't put much effort into that part of the game. Well, for one, this was incredibly obvious via the eye test. If you didn't see a deterioration in his game, I'm not sure what to say. He was an effective, albeit not a star, player freshman year, but he was certainly trending in that direction. While stats don't tell the whole story, his shooting #s did drop yearly (45%, 43%, 27% - I understand jr year was a very small sample size, but...27% is 27%), his 3PT #s plummeted (39% to 27% to 0% - again a small sample size, but 0-11 is 0-11). Beyond that, there was no noticeable movement in any area despite many more minutes, via the eye test or stats, except for fouls (which increased). I can't believe I just spent time trying to convince somebody that Copeland got worse at gtown.
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Feb 28, 2017 12:56:53 GMT -5
If Copeland can't be used as an example for poor development, who can? His skills actually got WAY worse during his time here. And even if he had never touched a basketball before arriving, he had all the athleticism in the world to become a good player. I agree there were probably self-starting issues with Cope, but it seemed like those snowballed throughout his time here. Again, he's a college kid, so it's tough to speculate what was going on. But it's not exactly a GOOD sign for JT3 or the program that his apparent motivation and will to be great decreased to almost zero... The program has had too many transfers under JTIII period. I posted this on Casual Hoya back in December: I went back to 2012 because that’s as far back as Verbal Commits keeps comprehensive transfer lists online. Here are the number of transfers for each of the current Big East programs since 2012. Villanova – 5 Georgetown – 7 Creighton – 8 Butler – 9 Marquette – 10 Xavier – 10 Seton Hall – 11 DePaul – 12 Providence – 12 St. John’s – 13 Here are the Georgetown transfers during that time: Isaac Copeland, Paul White, Riyan Williams, Moses Ayegba, Greg Whittington, Brandon Bolden, Stephen Domingo Since JT3 was hired, here are the other transfers between 2004-2011: Matt Causey, Ray Reed, Cornelio Guibunda, Josh Thornton, Marc Egerson, Octavius Spann, Vernon Macklin, Jeremiah Rivers, Omar Wattad, Nikita Mescheriakov, Vee Sanford, Jerrelle Benimon And to round it out, here are the players that transferred to Georgetown since JT3 was hired: Patrick Ewing Jr, Ryan Dougherty, Julian Vaughn, Josh Smith, Akoy Agau, Rodney Pryor, Jonathan Mulmore Based on the numbers, it appears that Georgetown has been fairly stable from a transfer perspective.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 28, 2017 13:05:53 GMT -5
Here are the Georgetown transfers during that time: Isaac Copeland, Paul White, Riyan Williams, Moses Ayegba, Greg Whittington, Brandon Bolden, Stephen Domingo Since JT3 was hired, here are the other transfers between 2004-2011: Matt Causey, Ray Reed, Cornelio Guibunda, Josh Thornton, Marc Egerson, Octavius Spann, Vernon Macklin, Jeremiah Rivers, Omar Wattad, Nikita Mescheriakov, Vee Sanford, Jerrelle Benimon And to round it out, here are the players that transferred to Georgetown since JT3 was hired: Patrick Ewing Jr, Ryan Dougherty, Julian Vaughn, Josh Smith, Akoy Agau, Rodney Pryor, Jonathan Mulmore Based on the numbers, it appears that Georgetown has been fairly stable from a transfer perspective. 1. Ryan Williams and Moses Ayegba are fifth year players elsewhere but completed their degree at Georgetown. They left in good standing. 2. Greg Whittington never enrolled at Rutgers, so he's not technically a transfer, just someone who quit school. 3. Matt Causey announced his transfer before III was hired and shouldn't really count in this discussion.
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LCPolo18
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Post by LCPolo18 on Feb 28, 2017 13:20:39 GMT -5
Here are the Georgetown transfers during that time: Isaac Copeland, Paul White, Riyan Williams, Moses Ayegba, Greg Whittington, Brandon Bolden, Stephen Domingo Since JT3 was hired, here are the other transfers between 2004-2011: Matt Causey, Ray Reed, Cornelio Guibunda, Josh Thornton, Marc Egerson, Octavius Spann, Vernon Macklin, Jeremiah Rivers, Omar Wattad, Nikita Mescheriakov, Vee Sanford, Jerrelle Benimon And to round it out, here are the players that transferred to Georgetown since JT3 was hired: Patrick Ewing Jr, Ryan Dougherty, Julian Vaughn, Josh Smith, Akoy Agau, Rodney Pryor, Jonathan Mulmore Based on the numbers, it appears that Georgetown has been fairly stable from a transfer perspective. 1. Ryan Williams and Moses Ayegba are fifth year players elsewhere but completed their degree at Georgetown. They left in good standing. 2. Greg Whittington never enrolled at Rutgers, so he's not technically a transfer, just someone who quit school. 3. Matt Causey announced his transfer before III was hired and shouldn't really count in this discussion. -Yes on Riyan and Moses, but for the ease of data collection I included all transfers across the Big East. -Good point about Whittington, though it doesn't change that he left Georgetown with the intention to transfer. -Given that JT3 was hired in April and the Causey transfer was announced in July (by JT3 www.guhoyas.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/070804aaa.html ) I assumed it should count in the discussion.
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bostonfan
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Post by bostonfan on Feb 28, 2017 14:02:36 GMT -5
1. Ryan Williams and Moses Ayegba are fifth year players elsewhere but completed their degree at Georgetown. They left in good standing. 2. Greg Whittington never enrolled at Rutgers, so he's not technically a transfer, just someone who quit school. 3. Matt Causey announced his transfer before III was hired and shouldn't really count in this discussion. -Yes on Riyan and Moses, but for the ease of data collection I included all transfers across the Big East. -Good point about Whittington, though it doesn't change that he left Georgetown with the intention to transfer. -Given that JT3 was hired in April and the Causey transfer was announced in July (by JT3 www.guhoyas.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/070804aaa.html ) I assumed it should count in the discussion. From what I heard Whittington did not leave Georgetown because he was unhappy with the program or the coach. He left because he was struggling to keep up with his studies and after his injury felt he might not be able to become academically eligible again. I know for a fact he still hung around the campus on occasion even after he officially left the school. He in fact helped to coach my daughters club basketball team during some of their home tournaments on campus.
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playtyler
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Post by playtyler on Feb 28, 2017 15:58:26 GMT -5
BnG is my favorite poster on Hoyatalk. But, I don’t get why he is killing this kid. What does that accomplish? First, we are lucky that such a highly ranked kid chose to come to Georgetown. I am not sure when that is going to happen again. If you don’t work out, you get labeled a “bust”. He was good Freshman year. Took a step back Sophomore year, when the entire team was in disarray and then had a couple good games this year before completely losing it. In the first game against Upstate he did not miss a shot, scored 10 pts in 20 minutes. In the next game he had a double-double against Maryland, where he was our leading rebounder and leader in assists. In the next game against Ark. State he was our 3rd leading scorer and 3rd leading rebounder. Then we went to Maui and he had a terrible trip. He may have gotten injured there, not sure. No one gets back surgery if there is no problem. Then he is gone. To say that he was terrible this year is an overstatement. He could have really helped this team. But, he was injured, maybe, and he did not want to play for Thompson any more. Maybe that’s on him. Or … maybe that’s on Thompson. Here is what I see. The upperclassmen are supposed to be strength of our team. In August, after Kenner League, we had the following upperclassmen: Reggie Cameron, Bradley Hayes, Rodney Pryor, L.J. Peak, Akoy Agau, Trey Mourning, Jonathan Mulmore, Tre Campbell, Paul White and Isaac Copeland. That is 10 Juniors and Seniors. This team should be pretty good (not to mention underclassmen Johnson, Derrickson, Govan and Mosely). Only these players (minus L.J. and Pryor) don’t seem to have learned how to play winning basketball or, as several teams have said, don’t seem to want to play hard for Thompson. Cameron is a non-factor, Hayes (mysteriously) is a non-factor, White is gone in August???, Copeland is gone in early December???, Agau is someone who could not get off the bench in Louisville (for a reason), Mourning can’t get off our bench (even when dad is watching, not sure the reason ), Mulmore has the worst statistics in the Big East www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/players/playerpage/2268073/jonathan-mulmore , Campbell doesn’t play either. SO that is Mourning, Campbell, Hayes, White, Cameron and Copeland who don’t play or quit and Agau and Mulmore who aren’t good at winning basketball. That is a lot of upperclassmen who are not contributing. To single Copeland out is really unfair. This is an epidemic. One that I would argue is clearly institutional. There was a great article written many years ago by Ed Persia (former Princeton PG under JTIII) written for NBC Sports about JT III. In the article he said he basically had no relationship with the players, he was old school, he was curt, stern and generally unapproachable. Persia said it was not enjoyable playing for JTIII and that JTIII was constantly critical of the players. I have been looking everywhere for this article and can’t find it. I think this is JT III’s personality and the kids these days (and maybe never) don’t respond to it. They don’t improve. They don’t want to play hard and run through walls for this guy. He is not a good in-game coach. Our plays out of timeouts are a joke. My favorite part of this entire season (other than the first 7/8’s of the Maryland game) was the inside the Huddle where they flashed to our huddle and there was no JT III only Akoy Agua urging on his teammates. This was classic. I have never seen this. A feature that is supposed to focus on the coaching, but there is no coach. Thompson enters the huddles during our timeouts hilariously late. What is he waiting for… Bill Self, Coach K, etc. do not do this. Some wait a beat and talk to their coaches and then enter. He waits almost the entire timeout. Our end game sequences have been historically bad. See Maryland. See every other close game this year. Our defense is terrible. We switch everything, even when not necessary. If you watch a good team that plays a switching man to man, the defender first tries to stay with his man (fight over/under screens) before the switch is in place. We switch at the whiff of a screen. If we switched less (only when necessary), we would have many less terrible mismatches. Watch Kansas, Virginia, Duke, Arizona play defense and how they switch and then watch us. It is a horror show. I am not going to get into the fact that we run a pattern offense. No one runs a pattern offense any more. It takes too long to develop and is too easy to disrupt. I guess other than motivating the players, developing their skills so they improve as they become upperclassmen, in-game coaching, end-game coaching, offensive scheme and defensive scheme, JT III is a pretty good coach. Some of our kids graduate, there have been no recruiting scandals (though Egerson and Latavious Williams recruitment were pretty bad academically), our kids don’t get in trouble and seem like generally good kids. The only other comment I would make is that JTIII is very lucky, not only in his bloodlines. As much as it pains me to say this, Jeff Green walked against Vanderbilt in the Sweet 16 and we were super lucky to come back against Carolina in the Great 8, down 11 in the second half, when Carolina went 1-23 over a 15 minute span, including overtime. If they had called that travel against Jeff or UNC had made just one more shot in the second half, JTIII would not be looked upon as even remotely successful. The losses against, Ohio, FGCU, Davidson (admittedly with a red hot Steph in the second half, though we were up 16), NC State, Utah (to a lesser degree), would be the evidence that he is not a great motivator, in-game and end-game coach and his players don’t play hard for him. We have had lots of talent underachieve while they were here (Summers, Sapp (for entertainment check out last year’s story on Sapp destroying “Whole Lotta Game” in epic NYC game), Freeman, Wright, Monroe, DSR, Copeland, Josh Smith, Mikael Hopkins, Lubick, Benimon, Macklin). If you imagine a world where they called the walk on Jeff Green and there is no win in the Sweet 16, does that change JT III’s entire resume and does any last person hanging out on JT III island jump? The losses are bad. Really bad. But, the evidence is more in the regular embarrassment (FGCU, Ohio) and clear dissention in the program. He has lost the team and now the fans. This season White transferred super-late, Copeland transferred in-season, Cameron was suspended indefinitely, something also happened with Campbell and who knows what happened with Hayes and Mourning. That is a lot of issues with upperclassmen. He has lost the team … and his job.
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