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Post by hoya2x2010 on Nov 16, 2016 10:28:25 GMT -5
SO, I've been as critical of JT3 and Campbell for their culpability in last night's debacle as anyone. Despite that, one thing that's been bothering me - and don't get me wrong, I know the refs didn't screw us last night overall - but was anybody at the game in a good position to see if Campbell _did_ step out of bounds? The angle shown on TV was far less than obvious, and I was shocked that they didn't show another replay (at least I didn't see one). Also, would this have been reviewable if a replay showed otherwise? Somebody please tell me he was clearly on the line, so I can sleep tonight.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Nov 16, 2016 10:29:09 GMT -5
I have so many mixed feelings. However one stands out. This team just does not understand how to break a press. Their inability to handle the press was the major cause for the loss last night. Recently I watched a replay of the Princeton-Georgetown NCAA game of many years ago. Georgetown had a great press and was causing teams to turn the ball over. Princeton had one guard who could dribble, but no one else really was a good dribbler nor much of a handle.. So how did they totally neutralize Georgetown's press?? Rule #1. If you try to dribble out of a double team trap you will lose the ball more times than not. The key is passing and spacing. To my untrained eye, it appeared that the players just don't understand the tactics of beating a press. Our players were constantly trying to beat the press by dribbling out of it (dribbling out of a double team). Of course anyone can slip, but they just didn't know how to get the ball in and when they did it was frantic dribbling. For example on Tre's stepping out of bounds; If you are going to go to the corner to get an inbounds pass (a bad idea in the first place), you have to be ready to pass the ball immediately before the trap comes and other players have to be cognizant of spacing and position to allow the trapped play a place to pass. Anyway, enough of this. Just my thoughts. What do you guys think?? Agree as to the struggles last night. Most alarming, against their press we played a 24 year old senior and two juniors, not a group of inexperienced kids. Spacing is critical and with two bigs in Copeland and Govan who can shoot FTs, I waited to see them brought forward for the in-bounds pass. I think Copeland came once and Govan was not in the game much at the end.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 16, 2016 10:38:00 GMT -5
Was LJ's foul 70 feet from the basket the worst Hoya foul since Sam Jefferson at the Dome? Or at least since Bowman fouled the guy on the 3 in the last few seconds? I know it was an effort foul, but you HAVE to be smarter there. Then again, if Peak doesn't foul, we would have just let Trimble stroll to the basket unimpeded again. At least with the foul, we had a few seconds left to try to do something (I don't think Jagan coast to coast is our preferred go-to last second strategy. It was awful. Truly awful. Unless you're 102% certain you're going to get the ball, you can't do that. They only had seven seconds! You've already done your job by forcing the ball that far backwards. You double Melo as he brings the ball up the court, tell everyone else to pack the lane, and force him to take either a wildly contested shot or dish to a freshman for an outside jumper. I still like our odds in that scenario. (Not as well as I liked them up six about three real minutes earlier, but I digress...) I mean, best case for him, he crosses half court with four seconds left and gets to the three-point line with two. (FWIW: That's why I really didn't have that much of a problem with the somewhat porous defense on him up to that point. I had some problem with it obviously, but the fact of the matter is that but for the turnovers and fouls, we still win easily. So, it wasn't crazy to conclude that we're better off not helping and permitting an open three (either from him or someone else.))
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FrazierFanatic
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 16, 2016 10:42:10 GMT -5
SO, I've been as critical of JT3 and Campbell for their culpability in last night's debacle as anyone. Despite that, one thing that's been bothering me - and don't get me wrong, I know the refs didn't screw us last night overall - but was anybody at the game in a good position to see if Campbell _did_ step out of bounds? The angle shown on TV was far less than obvious, and I was shocked that they didn't show another replay (at least I didn't see one). Also, would this have been reviewable if a replay showed otherwise? Somebody please tell me he was clearly on the line, so I can sleep tonight. Looked pretty clear from the overhead shot that he was at least 2-3 inches out. He did get nudged by Huerter, but as an upperclassman he HAS to know better.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Nov 16, 2016 10:44:41 GMT -5
You also zone in the last minute with Melo cutting us up to the lane. No awareness whatsoever. Mulmore travel, Campbell foul, Pryor travel, Campbell out of bounds, Peak foul. It was a team effort to crap the bed like that. The refs really screwed that game up though too. Way too many ticky tack calls. Pryor's goaltends were questionnable. I have no idea what was so confusing that took a minute when Cowan was waiting to shoot free throws. Not a reason to win or lose, but really classic case of over officiating.
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FrazierFanatic
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 16, 2016 10:44:51 GMT -5
Should "We have to learn from our mistakes" be our T-shirt slogan this year? Seems we hear that phrase on an endless loop the last few years.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 16, 2016 10:45:32 GMT -5
SO, I've been as critical of JT3 and Campbell for their culpability in last night's debacle as anyone. Despite that, one thing that's been bothering me - and don't get me wrong, I know the refs didn't screw us last night overall - but was anybody at the game in a good position to see if Campbell _did_ step out of bounds? The angle shown on TV was far less than obvious, and I was shocked that they didn't show another replay (at least I didn't see one). Also, would this have been reviewable if a replay showed otherwise? Somebody please tell me he was clearly on the line, so I can sleep tonight. Looked pretty clear from the overhead shot that he was at least 2-3 inches out. He did get nudged by Huerter, but as an upperclassman he HAS to know better. Generally, I'd have no problem with that call (or non-call). But with that idiotic new "invading the cylinder of the offensive player" rule (which, as I understand it, basically means it's a foul if you're in the player's "air space" even if he initiates the contact), it probably should have been a foul on MD. Indeed, they called that foul against us on that one trap we had against the baseline where there was no contact of any kind. It wasn't really much different. But....I'm not complaining about the refs. We got plenty of questionable calls.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Nov 16, 2016 10:47:13 GMT -5
You also zone in the last minute with Melo cutting us up to the lane. No awareness whatsoever. I thought about that, too. But I think the calculation at that point was "the only realistic way we lose this game is by giving up threes." So...let's not zone for that reason. The problem was that what happened wasn't really "realistic!"
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Nov 16, 2016 10:47:42 GMT -5
You also zone in the last minute with Melo cutting us up to the lane. No awareness whatsoever. Mulmore travel, Campbell foul, Pryor travel, Campbell out of bounds, Peak foul. It was a team effort to crap the bed like that. The refs really screwed that game up though too. Way too many ticky tack calls. Pryor's goaltends were questionnable. I have no idea what was so confusing that took a minute when Cowan was waiting to shoot free throws. Not a reason to win or lose, but really classic case of over officiating. Yes. This! Id love to hear someone who knows basketball better than I, and I am glad to admit I do not know much , explain to me why we dont do this. Wasnt MD also something like 2 for 20 from 3? They were not going to shoot an outside shot. If I am not mistaken, the only jump shot MD took in the last 5 minutes was that WIDE OPEN 3.
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Post by hoya2x2010 on Nov 16, 2016 10:58:52 GMT -5
SO, I've been as critical of JT3 and Campbell for their culpability in last night's debacle as anyone. Despite that, one thing that's been bothering me - and don't get me wrong, I know the refs didn't screw us last night overall - but was anybody at the game in a good position to see if Campbell _did_ step out of bounds? The angle shown on TV was far less than obvious, and I was shocked that they didn't show another replay (at least I didn't see one). Also, would this have been reviewable if a replay showed otherwise? Somebody please tell me he was clearly on the line, so I can sleep tonight. Looked pretty clear from the overhead shot that he was at least 2-3 inches out. He did get nudged by Huerter, but as an upperclassman he HAS to know better. Thanks. I didn't see that one.
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Post by sleepyjackson21 on Nov 16, 2016 11:04:58 GMT -5
Up 9 with a little over 2 minutes to play. We hit all but one of our free throws and Maryland only hit one 3 and we still lost the game. How is that even possible?
A foot out of bounds, a slip on the court, another travel, a possession arrow to Maryland, two inexplicable deadball fouls, another foul 70 ft from the basket and zero defense on Melo.
I repeat, how is that possible? I hate the name Melo.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 16, 2016 11:05:24 GMT -5
To echo what someone else said, I don't understand why in the end-game situation you don't bring up Govan (or Derrickson, if he's playing) to be an inbound option. I mean, last year Govan shot FTs at 83.1%, Derrickson at 86.9%, and Campbell at 77.4%. Granted, none of them are bad, but Govan and Derrickson were better than Campbell last year by a fair margin, and I don't expect that will change.
I realize they are bigs, but all you need to do is get the inbound pass and get fouled. In fact, even if Derrickson is hurt and cannot play a ton of minutes yet, that's a scenario perfectly made for him. I mean, Campbell is 6-6 this year, and had he not stepped on the line he might have made them, but I just don't get why you wouldn't put your best FT shooters in a position to be taking the end-of-game shots. Normally, that's the guards, but I am not sure that's true on our team.
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jld
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Post by jld on Nov 16, 2016 11:11:54 GMT -5
Lets put aside the final minute. A total disaster and this team needs serious practice and strategy on inbounding and breaking the press. However, lets not forget that this is a sub-.500 team from last year playing its second game in mid-Nov. against a good opponent, with a revised coaching staff. We have three new backcourt guys and Agau, for a total of 4 new guys. Also, we still do not have a pure PG and this killed us at the end. I thought Anthony Cowan was superb for MD and hopefully Waters will bring this missing ingredient next year.
I thought that the refs completely mismanaged the game. Not as to whether they favored one team or the other, but on ticky tack calls, inexplicable delays at the scorers table, and a questionable T on Turgeon followed by make up calls against us. The game went about 150 minutes to play 40 minutes of ball. I think we had MD on the ropes but the constant delays helped them regroup, and have informal strategy huddles with the coaches when they were out of timeouts.
Aside from the end-game meltdown, I think that the staff must devote immediate attention to Pryor. No assists in 2 games, selfish shots and careless dribbles drives and passes are a potential long term problem. He is not playing within the structure of the team. When he did so, he did well -- he hit 2 wide open threes off nice passes by Mulmore and Peak in the second half, and had an easy back door layup off a nice pass from Agau in the first. But the me-first attitude is not good and may cause a chemistry problem.
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s4hoyas
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Post by s4hoyas on Nov 16, 2016 11:41:48 GMT -5
In addition to everything else said, especially in regard to the last minute failures of inbounding to the corner, leading immediately to traps and turnovers, and the inability to cutoff/position for the charge on Trimble drives (which we've known were coming for the last six months), the lack of playing time for Derrickson was most disturbing...he seems to have adequate mobility and it doesn't appear that his sprained knee in early August is still hindering him...he is the one guy on this team that knows how to get position down low and take a charge, which he did in the first half...it seems to me that it might have been wise to have him in the game for the last few minutes (but in general I think he should be playing much more as he is a very good three point shooter and has also improved his inside game, as evidenced in his Kenner play). If he gets more time, I think he will be a major contributor and difference maker for this team.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 12:36:11 GMT -5
Lets put aside the final minute. A total disaster and this team needs serious practice and strategy on inbounding and breaking the press. However, lets not forget that this is a sub-.500 team from last year playing its second game in mid-Nov. against a good opponent, with a revised coaching staff. We have three new backcourt guys and Agau, for a total of 4 new guys. Also, we still do not have a pure PG and this killed us at the end. I thought Anthony Cowan was superb for MD and hopefully Waters will bring this missing ingredient next year. Disagree. Mosely is a pure point guard. He is not a shooter. I thought he did a credible job last night. However, he still is a freshman. However, I do agree that this is too early in the year to come to any conclusions. I do believe that by 2017, this team is going to be very very good.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Nov 16, 2016 12:50:11 GMT -5
I was fortunate enough to miss the last six minutes of the game on television, so my flat screen is intact. I did follow it on yahoo.com, so it's clear (at least to me), that there's plenty of blame to go around for the end result.
Plus/minus for the game, courtesy of the play-by-play at guhoyas.com:
Mulmore +11, Campbell +10, Govan +9, Copeland +4, Derrickson +4, Johnson +4, Peak +2, Pryor -7, Agau -8, Mosely -24, Cameron DNP/coach's decision, Hines DNP/coach's decision, Mourning DNP/coach's decision, Muresan DNP/coach's decision, Hayes DNP/suspension.
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95hoya
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Post by 95hoya on Nov 16, 2016 13:23:40 GMT -5
Lets put aside the final minute. A total disaster and this team needs serious practice and strategy on inbounding and breaking the press. However, lets not forget that this is a sub-.500 team from last year playing its second game in mid-Nov. against a good opponent, with a revised coaching staff. We have three new backcourt guys and Agau, for a total of 4 new guys. Also, we still do not have a pure PG and this killed us at the end. I thought Anthony Cowan was superb for MD and hopefully Waters will bring this missing ingredient next year. Disagree. Mosely is a pure point guard. He is not a shooter. I thought he did a credible job last night. However, he still is a freshman. However, I do agree that this is too early in the year to come to any conclusions. I do believe that by 2017, this team is going to be very very good. What makes Mosely a PG? He doesn't have any of the traits of a high major PG. I like the player.
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jester
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Post by jester on Nov 16, 2016 14:02:49 GMT -5
I think you are right - Mosely is only a player, which is great - he digs in on D, he's athletic, he's strong, he seems to have decent IQ, and nothing about his shooting is broken. He's probably a PG because its what he'll be this year in name, but and we will have to see if all those 'player' attributes evolve into him being a high major impact player at his position. probably what he is now is a more versatile senior year Bowen, a player who can come in and make plays and belongs but not a driving force on team - but luckily we have 4 years to see if he develops and taps into upside.
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deacon
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Post by deacon on Nov 16, 2016 14:34:42 GMT -5
Lets put aside the final minute. A total disaster and this team needs serious practice and strategy on inbounding and breaking the press. However, lets not forget that this is a sub-.500 team from last year playing its second game in mid-Nov. against a good opponent, with a revised coaching staff. We have three new backcourt guys and Agau, for a total of 4 new guys. Also, we still do not have a pure PG and this killed us at the end. I thought Anthony Cowan was superb for MD and hopefully Waters will bring this missing ingredient next year. Disagree. Mosely is a pure point guard. He is not a shooter. I thought he did a credible job last night. However, he still is a freshman. However, I do agree that this is too early in the year to come to any conclusions. I do believe that by 2017, this team is going to be very very good. While I stand firm that the notion of what a point guard is supposed to be is antiquated, whether Jagan is a pure point is irrelevant to the point that he isn't a dynamic playmaker and that's what this team desperately needs. I've had arguments for days with people who tell me that players like Russell Westbrook and Kylie Irving aren't point guards, and I honestly don't care how they are defined: they make plays, bottom line. Last night, there were long stretches of the game where we needed a guard(s) to make a play and with Peak on the bench, we were stuck. I think Mulmore can be that guy, but time will tell. Waters will definitely be that guy, but it can't just be him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 14:44:05 GMT -5
I just think, while a PG, he is a freshman playing in his second game. As time goes on, as his game develops, he is going to be the player you envision a point guard to be. Let's revisit this in a year or two. PS-whether he is point guard or not, he is the best we have at that position. I believe that he is already better than Tre.
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