EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,916
|
Post by EtomicB on Sept 15, 2016 11:24:43 GMT -5
They don't need a Jagan though, they need a PG... Not a combo You mean like the Wright kid who just verballed to Dayton? Or I. Washington who just verballed to Minnesota? Or L. Batts who just verballed to VCU? Or Alvarado who's choosing between Rutgers, G.Tech & Seton Hall today? To me this is where the staffs efforts should have gone after Lykes, it should have gone to kids like these and others..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 11:28:12 GMT -5
This is pretty much it. We need some excitement around the program and right now there is little. Perhaps in a more logical world, other things would matter more, but in the world we have not so much. I don't buy this "winning cures" theory much.. Nova just won a championship with a guard friendly system and they're still having to duke it out to land a guard for 2017.. Gtown(JT3) continually fishes in the wrong waters imo especially when it comes to back- court help.. It's funny how folks love kids like Jabril or Jagan but aren't into their type during the recruiting periods.. I'm happy that the staff reached for Jagan early last August instead of waiting for spring to roll around.. The team needs more like him imo.. I was just about to write this. See Miss St -- 3 great recruiting years in a row after 14-19, 13-19, 14-17. May be more than winning happening there. "Winning cures" theory seems like a Hail Mary to me. 20-11, 11-7 isn't going to move the needle. We need a 25+ win season or and extended NCAA run for anyone (not GU fans) to really care. And even with the talent on our roster, I wouldn't say that's the kind of year anyone is predicting. I don't think it's our best (or only) hope going forward. Even if we exceeded expectations by the end of the year, I think we're going to have to sell most of these 2017 kids on GU well before that. ... unless we are 12-0 going into BE play, with Rodney and LJ scoring 20 a night.
|
|
SDHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,332
|
Post by SDHoya on Sept 15, 2016 11:39:48 GMT -5
No one said winning is the only cure---sometimes bringing in a new coach can help too---for Miss St the cure was a new coach (Howland).
NYC, are you trying to say we need a new coach?
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,916
|
Post by EtomicB on Sept 15, 2016 11:49:53 GMT -5
I don't buy this "winning cures" theory much.. Nova just won a championship with a guard friendly system and they're still having to duke it out to land a guard for 2017.. Gtown(JT3) continually fishes in the wrong waters imo especially when it comes to back- court help.. It's funny how folks love kids like Jabril or Jagan but aren't into their type during the recruiting periods.. I'm happy that the staff reached for Jagan early last August instead of waiting for spring to roll around.. The team needs more like him imo.. Nova has a 5 star PF coming in this year (Spellman) and a 5 star PG last year (Brunson)---those aren't related to their National Championship, but certainly they are related to their recent domination of the BE. For 2017, they already have commits from two 4 star forwards. They may not recruit like Duke and Kentucky, but I'd say Wright has managed to do okay for himself. Nova is "duking it out" over 5 star guards like Green with the Dukes and UKs of the world--maybe they lose that battle, Wright is unlikely to go back to Philly empty handed. Meanwhile our 2016 and 2017 classes are a combined Jagan. Sure we love the heart of guys in the Jabril mold, but it took until Jabril was a senior before he was a consistent offensive threat for the Hoyas, and when the hand checking crack down started, Jabril became one of our biggest defensive liabilities. We had two years of (on paper) solid recruiting classes in 2014 and 2015. There is certainly promise in those groups, but last year's disaster almost certainly caused some recruits to hold off. When JTIII came in he was recruiting 5 star guys (Macklin, Summers, Freeman, Wright) and the final four unquestionable helped us get the top HS player in Monroe (I forget when Wright and Freeman committed, but that may have been due to the FF as well). Since then, and as our successes, particularly in March, have dried up, we have gone from being able to recruit relatively well in the lower echelons of the Top 100, to being hopeful that a non-top 100 guy (Jagan) will be a diamond in the rough. Could we still end up with a 2017 class of Troy Brown, Tremont Waters, and Aamir Simms? Yes, but the staff has to work much harder (than if we just came off a Sweet 16) just to convince these guys that last year was a blip and that JTIII will right the ship and provide a great platform to shine. You have to include Nova missing out on Lykes and Brooks earlier in the spring to Miami and Michigan.. Now they're in a battle with Maryland for Morsel..
|
|
|
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Sept 15, 2016 11:54:20 GMT -5
Also, when people here say we need to win, I don't think most people have 20-11, and a first round NCAA exit in mind. In my mind winning enough to make a recruiting impact means a very good regular season and Sweet 16+. The fact that we haven't been to a Sweet 16 or better since 2007 isn't helping us on the recruiting trail. And when you add a sub-.500 campaign to that list last year, it hurts us even more.
Also, I think people tend to over-sell the facility. Yes, it looks beautiful, and it is a huge improvement on Yates and McDonough. But, many of the schools these recruits are looking at (especially public schools) already have equivalent facilities or better.
In my mind, there's nothing special about the facility that will help in the sense of convincing people to come to Georgetown who otherwise wouldn't. Rather, I think the facility establishes a minimum level amenity that we need to be on par with other schools. For example, in the past somebody iffy on us may have looked at the poor facilities and dropped us. Now, maybe that recruit will give us a longer look.
Clearly, the new facility doesn't hurt, but if people expect the new facility to get us 5 star recruits simply because it's there, you are bound to be disappointed. The point being, if a recruit comes to Georgetown, but then also goes to other top schools, they're going to see all the schools generally have nice facilities. Certainly, our facility is nicer than many other Big East schools, but that's really not who we want to be competing with (and even there, those schools seem to be recruiting better than us of late).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 11:55:26 GMT -5
No one said winning is the only cure---sometimes bringing in a new coach can help too---for Miss St the cure was a new coach (Howland). NYC, are you trying to say we need a new coach? No. Just pointing out that: 1) Winning isn't everything. Most ppl would certainly agree, but B&G made reference to no big time recruit wanting to go to a losing team. MSU manages it and I'm sure there are other examples -- but they just grabbed Weatherspoon against us head-to-head, so that's why I mention them. 2) Winning probably isn't going to help us out for 2017 kids unless it's early, often, and impressive. No one's going to care about us if we have 2 or more losses going into the new year. I think we've got enough going for us otherwise that we don't need to be putting all of our worried eggs in the "win or else" basket. JT3 isn't helping himself any with the '16 and '17 classes, or with recent on-court results. I'm not promoting a change -- but if we aren't winning or recruiting well (at all?) by season's end...
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,759
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 15, 2016 12:09:36 GMT -5
JT3 isn't helping himself any with the '16 and '17 classes, or with recent on-court results. I'm not promoting a change -- but if we aren't winning or recruiting well (at all?) by season's end... Nothing changes either way. JT III has a great contract and Georgetown can't afford to do anything but honor it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 12:22:30 GMT -5
JT3 isn't helping himself any with the '16 and '17 classes, or with recent on-court results. I'm not promoting a change -- but if we aren't winning or recruiting well (at all?) by season's end... Nothing changes either way. JT III has a great contract and Georgetown can't afford to do anything but honor it. Maybe not, but I reserve the right to promote it.
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,403
Member is Online
|
Post by hoyaboya on Sept 15, 2016 12:52:20 GMT -5
JT3 isn't helping himself any with the '16 and '17 classes, or with recent on-court results. I'm not promoting a change -- but if we aren't winning or recruiting well (at all?) by season's end... Nothing changes either way. JT III has a great contract and Georgetown can't afford to do anything but honor it.Agreed with both of these points, but if he has another lousy year and no top shelf recruits coming in, I could see pride taking over and him calling it quits. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 14:37:39 GMT -5
They don't need a Jagan though, they need a PG... Not a combo You mean like the Wright kid who just verballed to Dayton? Or I. Washington who just verballed to Minnesota? Or L. Batts who just verballed to VCU? Or Alvarado who's choosing between Rutgers, G.Tech & Seton Hall today? To me this is where the staffs efforts should have gone after Lykes, it should have gone to kids like these and others.. They looked at 2 of the 3 you mentioned didn't like what they saw or something else... You referenced Jagan Jabril Thomas Allen etc they're combos not pgs that's what my comment was referring to..
|
|
hoyaboya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,403
Member is Online
|
Post by hoyaboya on Sept 15, 2016 14:45:04 GMT -5
You mean like the Wright kid who just verballed to Dayton? Or I. Washington who just verballed to Minnesota? Or L. Batts who just verballed to VCU? Or Alvarado who's choosing between Rutgers, G.Tech & Seton Hall today? To me this is where the staffs efforts should have gone after Lykes, it should have gone to kids like these and others.. They looked at 2 of the 3 you mentioned didn't like what they saw or something else... You referenced Jagan Jabril Thomas Allen etc they're combos not pgs that's what my comment was referring to.. Isn't JT3 on record saying he doesn't need point guards? Pretty sure he referred to Jagan as a "lead guard" in one of his recent interviews. Now you're saying JT3 wants a PG? And how exactly is that different from a "lead guard"?
|
|
IDenj
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,527
|
Post by IDenj on Sept 15, 2016 14:49:16 GMT -5
I've been saying it for 5/6 years. Your program is defined by your success ( or lack of ) in the NCAA's.
If this years squad doesn't make a deep push it's time to consider all options going forward.
But you need an administration or AD that considers it a problem first.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,759
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 15, 2016 14:52:05 GMT -5
Agreed with both of these points, but if he has another lousy year and no top shelf recruits coming in, I could see pride taking over and him calling it quits. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. No one is walking away from a contract that, with elevator clauses, could be in excess of $3.5 million/year by the conclusion of the agreement. Coaches aren't wired that way. And Georgetown isn't wired to pay multi-year, multi-million buyouts.
|
|
Bigs"R"Us
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,642
|
Post by Bigs"R"Us on Sept 15, 2016 15:01:18 GMT -5
How about a motion for a vote of no confidence?
|
|
EtomicB
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 14,916
|
Post by EtomicB on Sept 15, 2016 15:15:06 GMT -5
You mean like the Wright kid who just verballed to Dayton? Or I. Washington who just verballed to Minnesota? Or L. Batts who just verballed to VCU? Or Alvarado who's choosing between Rutgers, G.Tech & Seton Hall today? To me this is where the staffs efforts should have gone after Lykes, it should have gone to kids like these and others.. They looked at 2 of the 3 you mentioned didn't like what they saw or something else... You referenced Jagan Jabril Thomas Allen etc they're combos not pgs that's what my comment was referring to.. My bad, I wasn't clear in my OP.. I mentioned Jabril & Jagan because of their 3* ratings not because of their position.. The kids I mentioned above are kids I feel the staff could have much more success landing than the Browns of the world..
|
|
hoyazeke
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,816
|
Post by hoyazeke on Sept 15, 2016 15:16:56 GMT -5
Winning does cure all. Are last 2 good recruiting class were the direct result of Otto going crazy and leading us to a Top5-10 finish. Otto and Hops was the result of Chris, Free and Greg doing the same. And so on with Jeff and Big Roy recruiting Free, Chris and Greg. Do y'all really think we get any of the recruits after 2006 if the refs call travel on Jeff(not saying he traveled)? Not all recruits want it easy but we need to at least be close. We just lost a 5* kid and both of his parents are Gtown grads. What other school can you say that about? I've seen 5* kids chose Detroit and CMU over the last 10years because their father coached there. That's how it normally goes. JJ was really good but he isn't the God of Gtown. JJJ didn't have a Jordanian mountain to climb to reach his father's legacy. It made sense with Ewing2 because his father is the king and it would have been hard for him to feel those shoes on those bad Gtown teams. JJJ plays a position that we cater to and put people in the pros and he still didn't chose us. We weren't even #2....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 15:26:08 GMT -5
They looked at 2 of the 3 you mentioned didn't like what they saw or something else... You referenced Jagan Jabril Thomas Allen etc they're combos not pgs that's what my comment was referring to.. Isn't JT3 on record saying he doesn't need point guards? Pretty sure he referred to Jagan as a "lead guard" in one of his recent interviews. Now you're saying JT3 wants a PG? And how exactly is that different from a "lead guard"? Meh 3 says a lot of things...I dont read minds I look at the players they're recruiting
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2016 15:28:04 GMT -5
They looked at 2 of the 3 you mentioned didn't like what they saw or something else... You referenced Jagan Jabril Thomas Allen etc they're combos not pgs that's what my comment was referring to.. My bad, I wasn't clear in my OP.. I mentioned Jabril & Jagan because of their 3* ratings not because of their position.. The kids I mentioned above are kids I feel the staff could have much more success landing than the Browns of the world.. Gotchya...understood
|
|
|
Post by hoyalove4ever on Sept 15, 2016 15:57:23 GMT -5
Staff should go after the players they want, with the understanding they may miss and have to deal with what is leftover. I am 100% fine with that plan.
|
|
|
Post by williambraskyiii on Sept 15, 2016 16:17:50 GMT -5
Staff should go after the players they want, with the understanding they may miss and have to deal with what is leftover. I am 100% fine with that plan. Dude, I honestly don't know if you've ever said something I agree with. You are like the Hoya fan embodiment of Bad Idea Jeans. To address some other thoughts set out in this and other threads, while the IAC will not single-handedly earn us recruits, it serves, as I think Jt Jr. himself has stated, to level the playing field and allow Georgetown's other attractive traits to shine through without having to try and minimize the impact of 1950s era facilities. Not getting JJJr isn't a big deal. No one in the last year predicted that he'd come to Georgetown. Us fans shouldn't be any more or less negative or cynical about the program than we were yesterday. Nonetheless, we are in a remarkable recruiting drought, especially with regard to Top 50 backcourt players and really our top-line targets across the board. JTIII has this season to right the ship because given our pipeline, we don't exactly have a ton of underclassmen studs waiting in the wings or the wings' wings. Nothing against Jagan who I think will be a great four-year player for the Hoyas but one solid player does not a program make. Maybe we give this whole shoot for the moon thing another year or two before we accept that most kids want to go to Power conferences for a number of reasons and unless we are top of the heap in the NBE, we should be shooting for 100-150 kids first and foremost that fit our mold (whatever that is these days).
|
|