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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Feb 27, 2016 22:49:54 GMT -5
Again, just hope this team will stay together, not allow this season to cause them to contemplate anything foolish. There are better days ahead. Has to be. We have some key pieces; now we need the glue.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Feb 27, 2016 23:22:29 GMT -5
I think what confuses us about JT3 and his "system" is that it requires very smart, very skilled players. When he has those players the system works well and at times is actually beautiful. When he doesn't, well you've seen what happens. It especially requires a big man who can find open cutters and hit them. It also requires a big man with hands. Today showed conclusively that Jesse is not that big man. It also showed that LJ and Marcus are just deleted to play at this level. The absolutely stupid fouls they commit are unbelievable. Here's hoping that with time they understand that the athleticism that let them get away with this stuff in high school just isn't enough at this level.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Feb 28, 2016 0:21:28 GMT -5
I think what confuses us about JT3 and his "system" is that it requires very smart, very skilled players. When he has those players the system works well and at times is actually beautiful. When he doesn't, well you've seen what happens. It especially requires a big man who can find open cutters and hit them. It also requires a big man with hands. Today showed conclusively that Jesse is not that big man. It also showed that LJ and Marcus are just deleted to play at this level. The absolutely stupid fouls they commit are unbelievable. Here's hoping that with time they understand that the athleticism that let them get away with this stuff in high school just isn't enough at this level. This is quite harsh towards the players, they are not out there coaching themselves. Do you believe Marcus & LJ foul anymore than HAL?
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Post by chuckinhoya on Feb 28, 2016 0:46:42 GMT -5
I've watched and loved the Hoyas for about 30 years now and I can't say I've ever seen a Hoya team this bad skill wise and with so few explosive athletes. We run an offense made caterered to quick undersized teams, with hi bball IQ,knockdown shooters and a skilled quasi-big man. None of that exists on this team. The success on the backdoor cuts isn't there because outside of LJ we are slow. We have no consistent knock down shooters or skilled passers. Our bball IQ/awareness is just not there. It's like we recruited 10 of the same long stiff player. Copeland in the NBA? Not at this rate. DSR coming out last year? Who is he gonna guard on that level? No one blows by anyone in games outside of LJ'S slashing and no one can stop being blown by on D by everyone and anyone. I'd love to be proven wrong but I've seen an entire year of it. Worst yet is that there has been zero progression throughout the season. We are losing now the same way we have been losing all along and that my friends is squarely on the coach(who I've been rooting for through all of this). I've seen better coached middle school teams. I'll never stop rooting for the team and I realize they are kids, but this is not big time basketball I've been watching.
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HometownHoya
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Post by HometownHoya on Feb 28, 2016 10:40:40 GMT -5
Missed the game yesterday, has anyone seen a schedule for any FS1 replays?
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This Just In
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Bold Prediction: The Hoyas will win at least 1 BE game in 2023.
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Post by This Just In on Feb 28, 2016 10:48:33 GMT -5
Missed the game yesterday, has anyone seen a schedule for any FS1 replays? The game was on CBS and it does not look like the CBS Sports Network will be showing a replay of the game.
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HometownHoya
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Post by HometownHoya on Feb 28, 2016 11:00:17 GMT -5
Missed the game yesterday, has anyone seen a schedule for any FS1 replays? The game was on CBS and it does not look like the CBS Sports Network will be showing a replay of the game. FS1 has replayed CBS Big East games the day after in the past
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Feb 28, 2016 11:18:49 GMT -5
Did anyone else notice how similar the Butler offense looks to ours at times? How they run a lot of the same east-west action with handoffs and high screens and the like? They just have players that are more experienced, more skilled, and more adept at properly using the space that these kinds of sets intend to provide, whether it be space to drive the ball or space to shoot the 3. Their offense ranks 18th nationally according to KenPom.
This isn't a defense of JTIII or the job he's done this year but merely an observation that a team that ranks pretty highly in offensive efficiency runs a lot of similar offensive sets to us. Also, they don't have a traditional facilitating PG, just a veteran kid with a high IQ, a pretty good handle, and a knack for getting to the hoop.
Our offensive scheme isn't terrible. It's that most of the players on this team have been terrible at running it properly.
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hoyajinx
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyajinx on Feb 28, 2016 11:35:51 GMT -5
Did anyone else notice how similar the Butler offense looks to ours at times? How they run a lot of the same east-west action with handoffs and high screens and the like? They just have players that are more experienced, more skilled, and more adept at properly using the space that these kinds of sets intend to provide, whether it be space to drive the ball or space to shoot the 3. Their offense ranks 18th nationally according to KenPom. This isn't a defense of JTIII or the job he's done this year but merely an observation that a team that ranks pretty highly in offensive efficiency runs a lot of similar offensive sets to us. Also, they don't have a traditional facilitating PG, just a veteran kid with a high IQ, a pretty good handle, and a knack for getting to the hoop. Our offensive scheme isn't terrible. It's that most of the players on this team have been terrible at running it properly. I noticed the same thing. But you nailed the problem: our guys seem hopelessly incapable of running that offense this year. That's when it makes sense to STOP TRYING IT. After 20 or so games when it was painfully clear to everyone that we don't have the right personnel or basketball acumen to run the offense, it would have made sense to change it up. That didn't happen and we now sit at 14-15 (and it would have likely been 13-16 had we not abandoned the ineffective offense (and defense) in the closing minutes of the Creighton game).
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Feb 28, 2016 11:56:28 GMT -5
Did anyone else notice how similar the Butler offense looks to ours at times? How they run a lot of the same east-west action with handoffs and high screens and the like? They just have players that are more experienced, more skilled, and more adept at properly using the space that these kinds of sets intend to provide, whether it be space to drive the ball or space to shoot the 3. Their offense ranks 18th nationally according to KenPom. This isn't a defense of JTIII or the job he's done this year but merely an observation that a team that ranks pretty highly in offensive efficiency runs a lot of similar offensive sets to us. Also, they don't have a traditional facilitating PG, just a veteran kid with a high IQ, a pretty good handle, and a knack for getting to the hoop. Our offensive scheme isn't terrible. It's that most of the players on this team have been terrible at running it properly. I noticed the same thing. But you nailed the problem: our guys seem hopelessly incapable of running that offense this year. That's when it makes sense to STOP TRYING IT. After 20 or so games when it was painfully clear to everyone that we don't have the right personnel or basketball acumen to run the offense, it would have made sense to change it up. That didn't happen and we now sit at 14-15 (and it would have likely been 13-16 had we not abandoned the ineffective offense (and defense) in the closing minutes of the Creighton game). O yea, I agree 100%. It was painfully obvious a long time ago that this type of offense wasn't going to work this year. Like I said, I wasn't intending to defend the coach or anything. Merely making an observation.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 28, 2016 12:22:00 GMT -5
I noticed the same thing. But you nailed the problem: our guys seem hopelessly incapable of running that offense this year. That's when it makes sense to STOP TRYING IT. After 20 or so games when it was painfully clear to everyone that we don't have the right personnel or basketball acumen to run the offense, it would have made sense to change it up. That didn't happen and we now sit at 14-15 (and it would have likely been 13-16 had we not abandoned the ineffective offense (and defense) in the closing minutes of the Creighton game). O yea, I agree 100%. It was painfully obvious a long time ago that this type of offense wasn't going to work this year. Like I said, I wasn't intending to defend the coach or anything. Merely making an observation. I wrote the same thing as Johnny in the Marquette thread regarding the Butler offense. They - and SH - run the same stuff to start their sets trying to force switches and get favorable matchups for the dribble-drive. They -- and SH -- simply are better at driving the ball. I think it is simply flat wrong, though, that we haven't tried other things on offense. Focusing on spreading and driving is itself new. And over the past handful of games, we have incorporated down screens to free up LJ going toward the rack. A down screen, for those unfamiliar with Princeton principles (and if you hate the system, the least you could do is know about it) is like cryptonite. They are the Antichrist. Princeton offenses simply don't have people going to the basket often with anything but an unencumbered route to the hoop. We just don't have the skill or know-how to execute anything too well. What should we try? Doesn't everyone, right now, have the green light to take his man one-on-one hard to the hole? Sure seems that way. I'm not defending III. They're his players. And the lack of significant improvement in-season with this group is at least in part on him. But we are trying different things.
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hoyajinx
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by hoyajinx on Feb 28, 2016 12:34:00 GMT -5
O yea, I agree 100%. It was painfully obvious a long time ago that this type of offense wasn't going to work this year. Like I said, I wasn't intending to defend the coach or anything. Merely making an observation. I wrote the same thing as Johnny in the Marquette thread regarding the Butler offense. They - and SH - run the same stuff to start their sets trying to force switches and get favorable matchups for the dribble-drive. They -- and SH -- simply are better at driving the ball. I think it is simply flat wrong, though, that we haven't tried other things on offense. Focusing on spreading and driving is itself new. And over the past handful of games, we have incorporated down screens to free up LJ going toward the rack. A down screen, for those unfamiliar with Princeton principles (and if you hate the system, the least you could do is know about it) is like cryptonite. They are the Antichrist. Princeton offenses simply don't have people going to the basket often with anything but an unencumbered route to the hoop. We just don't have the skill or know-how to execute anything too well. What should we try? Doesn't everyone, right now, have the green light to take his man one-on-one hard to the hole? Sure seems that way. I'm not defending III. They're his players. And the lack of significant improvement in-season with this group is at least in part on him. But we are trying different things. Point taken. I think the bone of contention for many on here was that it took entirely too long to try to implement some new offensive schemes when it has been apparent for some time that the offense simply hasn't been working this year. As has been pointed out, maybe our terrible D in practice gave the staff hope that the offense would work in-game, but that simply has not happened. Trying new things should be applauded, but it seems to be the case of "too little, too late."
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Feb 28, 2016 13:59:44 GMT -5
In the off-season, I'd like to see each one of our returning players enroll in clinics geared to advance their basic basketball skill for their respective positions. Tre, for instance, would be seeking to learn how to take advantage of his speed to move laterally and then attack the basket. Ike, for instance, to learn how to increase the arc on his shot. Jesse, for instance, how to better protect the ball. LJ, for instance, how to better finish at the rim and to develop a floater. etc. And the same thing for their defensive skills: lateral movement, how to avoid fouling while still contesting, boxing out, etc. To me, this is far more important than participating in Kenner.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Feb 28, 2016 14:19:57 GMT -5
Lots of angst about the offense here, but the bigger problem with this team IMO has been wildly inconsistent and generally awful transition and half court defense. Looked that way for long stretches yesterday from our seats. Sure doesn't help to give up 80-90 ppg. Yes, injuries (at this point) have a lot to do with it but it has been a problem since early in the season.
Shorter bench at this point, but I'd like to see more full court press starting early in the games going forward.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Feb 28, 2016 15:15:04 GMT -5
The game was on CBS and it does not look like the CBS Sports Network will be showing a replay of the game. FS1 has replayed CBS Big East games the day after in the past I checked FS1 when you first asked and did not see anything then either. P.S.: If you find out otherwise, let me know.
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 28, 2016 20:12:31 GMT -5
I've watched and loved the Hoyas for about 30 years now and I can't say I've ever seen a Hoya team this bad skill wise and with so few explosive athletes. We run an offense made caterered to quick undersized teams, with hi bball IQ,knockdown shooters and a skilled quasi-big man. None of that exists on this team. The success on the backdoor cuts isn't there because outside of LJ we are slow. We have no consistent knock down shooters or skilled passers. Our bball IQ/awareness is just not there. It's like we recruited 10 of the same long stiff player. Copeland in the NBA? Not at this rate. DSR coming out last year? Who is he gonna guard on that level? No one blows by anyone in games outside of LJ'S slashing and no one can stop being blown by on D by everyone and anyone. I'd love to be proven wrong but I've seen an entire year of it. Worst yet is that there has been zero progression throughout the season. We are losing now the same way we have been losing all along and that my friends is squarely on the coach(who I've been rooting for through all of this). I've seen better coached middle school teams. I'll never stop rooting for the team and I realize they are kids, but this is not big time basketball I've been watching. That's not true. The Princeton Offense was designed so that the slow non athletic team could keep up with the athletic team with the backdoors and 3s. We don't even run the Princeton Offense anymore (haven't for years), just a couple of the principles. In some ways that might be the problem because everyone has to be proficient at the Princeton to run it and it seems like some guys on our team haven't really practiced it or understand it 100%. If even one guy doesn't really know where he's supposed to be it can't be run effectively. So when we do try to run some of the principles occasionally it just seems like it's low percentage that the back door works. I say this because I see teams like Richmond and Temple run the real Princeton Offense and have success with backdoors and the system because everyone is on the same page and they run that pretty much exclusively.
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Post by professorhoya on Feb 28, 2016 20:22:06 GMT -5
Lots of angst about the offense here, but the bigger problem with this team IMO has been wildly inconsistent and generally awful transition and half court defense. Looked that way for long stretches yesterday from our seats. Sure doesn't help to give up 80-90 ppg. Yes, injuries (at this point) have a lot to do with it but it has been a problem since early in the season. Shorter bench at this point, but I'd like to see more full court press starting early in the games going forward. I was thinking that during the game. The commentators were saying how for years JTIII had one of the best defenses in the league. And if we could run that then we would still be in alot of these games even with a stagnant offense. The new rules really hurt because now we can't play defense and we foul too much. As far as offensive droughts. Yeah that happens that's the nature of basketball. Butler had a huge drought at the end of regulation which basically let us back in the game. But in the past you could count on our defense being the constant. As far as the full court press, honestly we don't have the ideal players to run it. You want long, athletic, quick players at every position if you really want to make it work. Flying Illini, Pitino's teams. Shaka Smart's VCU and Texas teams. We have too many slow players and bad defenders/short length players like DSR, Tre Campbell, Derrickson and Cameron so basically our press really doesn't generate enough steals to compensate for when the press breaks down and the opposition gets easy buckets. It also exposes our bigs to foul trouble when the press gets beat. Our press basically just takes about 5 seconds off their shot clock but that's about it. It's better than nothing but it isn't that effective because we don't have the ideal personal for that style right now.
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Post by hoyalove4ever on Feb 28, 2016 21:25:41 GMT -5
Was at the game and had a good time. Team was prepared and played hard. Very, very close to pulling it out. Still stings, but sometimes a team has a season like this one.
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njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by njhoya78 on Feb 28, 2016 22:07:59 GMT -5
For those of us who are masochists, here's the plus/minus for yesterday's game, as calculated from the play-by-play at guhoyas.com:
Mourning +8, Copeland +3, Smith-Rivera +1, Campbell even, Peak even, Cameron -3, Govan -4, Johnson -4, Williams -6, Derrickson -10, Hayes DNP, White DNP.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 29, 2016 9:17:06 GMT -5
I wrote the same thing as Johnny in the Marquette thread regarding the Butler offense. They - and SH - run the same stuff to start their sets trying to force switches and get favorable matchups for the dribble-drive. They -- and SH -- simply are better at driving the ball. I think it is simply flat wrong, though, that we haven't tried other things on offense. Focusing on spreading and driving is itself new. And over the past handful of games, we have incorporated down screens to free up LJ going toward the rack. A down screen, for those unfamiliar with Princeton principles (and if you hate the system, the least you could do is know about it) is like cryptonite. They are the Antichrist. Princeton offenses simply don't have people going to the basket often with anything but an unencumbered route to the hoop. We just don't have the skill or know-how to execute anything too well. What should we try? Doesn't everyone, right now, have the green light to take his man one-on-one hard to the hole? Sure seems that way. I'm not defending III. They're his players. And the lack of significant improvement in-season with this group is at least in part on him. But we are trying different things. Point taken. I think the bone of contention for many on here was that it took entirely too long to try to implement some new offensive schemes when it has been apparent for some time that the offense simply hasn't been working this year. As has been pointed out, maybe our terrible D in practice gave the staff hope that the offense would work in-game, but that simply has not happened. Trying new things should be applauded, but it seems to be the case of "too little, too late." Except the offense worked pretty well against MD., Duke, Wisconsin, Syracuse. It is not like it had been horrible all year. It struggled terribly in many conference games, but a big part of that has been careless turnovers. When the offense did start to struggle there were some adjustments. It is virtually impossible, particularly with the current limits on practice time in college, to change your entire offensive scheme in midseason.
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