OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Jan 6, 2016 16:45:54 GMT -5
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but the key juncture of the game, to me, was when Govan hit a three, putting us up by 4. Then Creighton misses a shot, and we have 1, 2, 3, 4 chances at collecting the rebound before we fumble it out of bounds giving them another possession. They hit a three off the inbounds. The game disintegrated very quickly from that point forward, and the worst thing is, I knew it was coming after we gave them that extra possession. Our mental resilience just isn't there. So predictable. And so frustrating. Yea that sequence was mentioned earlier. That was Cameron who had about three chances to corral the rebound but couldn't and eventually fumbled it out of bounds. Someone mentioned the injuries to White and Agau hurting the Hoyas depth earlier. Given the reports from Kenner, I think Agau would definitely have helped on defense and rebounding. I thought White would be a starter this year based on what he did last year. Agau possibly could have been the first option at center off the bench ,as he is same height as Hopkins. Love Cameron's improved confidence in his stroke, but if these two players were healthy and playing he would be a luxury 3pt specialist when teams played primarily zone. I would like III to try going small against teams like Creighton for longer periods of time. Let Derrickson or Mourning play center with Copeland at big forward Peak/Johnson at small forward and DSR and Tre at guard and go uptempo.
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vv83
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Post by vv83 on Jan 6, 2016 17:01:43 GMT -5
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but the key juncture of the game, to me, was when Govan hit a three, putting us up by 4. Then Creighton misses a shot, and we have 1, 2, 3, 4 chances at collecting the rebound before we fumble it out of bounds giving them another possession. They hit a three off the inbounds. The game disintegrated very quickly from that point forward, and the worst thing is, I knew it was coming after we gave them that extra possession. Our mental resilience just isn't there. So predictable. And so frustrating. Yea that sequence was mentioned earlier. That was Cameron who had about three chances to corral the rebound but couldn't and eventually fumbled it out of bounds. Someone mentioned the injuries to White and Agau hurting the Hoyas depth earlier. Given the reports from Kenner, I think Agau would definitely have helped on defense and rebounding. I thought White would be a starter this year based on what he did last year. Agau possibly could have been the first option at center off the bench ,as he is same height as Hopkins. Love Cameron's improved confidence in his stroke, but if these two players were healthy and playing he would be a luxury 3pt specialist when teams played primarily zone. I would like III to try going small against teams like Creighton for longer periods of time. Let Derrickson or Mourning play center with Copeland at big forward Peak/Johnson at small forward and DSR and Tre at guard and go uptempo. Agau was really good this summer. Not flashy, just solid fundamentals, smart play, good athlete. He would be a very good defensive center against most teams, because he could shut down guards when defending the pick and roll. Quick/long enough to hedge the guard, then recover to his man. His passing ability would also have been a godsend to the offense. Of course, it is easy to say that Agau would have addressed a lot of our issues - the guy who is not playing always looks better than the guys who are playing when a team is struggling. But Agau has such a nice combination of length, athleticism, skill, and basketball IQ - I really do think losing him has hurt us a lot more than we would have guessed prior to the season. Add in losing White - who offers a lot of the same kind of stuff as Agau, just without as much quickness/explosiveness - and we really are playing shorthanded. We still have a good number of solidly talented players. But the two guys we lost are the only two with this particularly set of talents, and they are the kind of talents that seem to be increasingly important in the "pick and roll" offensive environment of modern college basketball. Agau would even be dangerous setting picks - because he could pop out and hit a jump shot, roll to the hoop and catch/finish, or whip a quick pass to an open shooter if he was covered when catching a pass off a screen. Hopefully we'll get to see what a difference a healthy Agau/White combo provide next year - because I don't think this year's team really has any personnel or strategic answers to the defensive and poor passing issues that are killing us.
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vv83
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by vv83 on Jan 6, 2016 17:07:21 GMT -5
also on Agau - I know that kenner league provides only a limited window for assessing a player's talents. But Agau played as well as anyone on the team did this summer. He was definitely better than both Derrickson and Kaleb - who both looked promising, but had less impact on most games than Agau did. Peak scored a ton of points, but sadly we know that his kenner/high school scoring does not translate to real games. I don't want to oversell Agau - but after seeing all the kenner games this summer, he was the member of the team I was most excited about coming into the season, because he seemed to provide exactly what the team needed to round out a talented group of young players. Maybe I am being overly optimistic, but I do think that if he recovers well from the injury, he will be a key player next year.
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FLHoya
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Proud Member of Generation Burton
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Post by FLHoya on Jan 6, 2016 17:55:13 GMT -5
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but the key juncture of the game, to me, was when Govan hit a three, putting us up by 4. Then Creighton misses a shot, and we have 1, 2, 3, 4 chances at collecting the rebound before we fumble it out of bounds giving them another possession. They hit a three off the inbounds. The game disintegrated very quickly from that point forward, and the worst thing is, I knew it was coming after we gave them that extra possession. Our mental resilience just isn't there. So predictable. And so frustrating. Cameron had like 3 of those 4 chances at that rebound. I'll admit I was screaming at the TV / JT3 about him still being in the game at that point. GAHHHH so frustrating. Also, I hate harping on Cameron--as I've said before, he's been a solid bench guy this year, and I've been happy with the way he's played generally. He was just so bad last night, for whatever reason, and there was no reason for JT3 to leave him in. Oh y'all can have that one, but the agonizing play for the true connoisseur has to be giving up the transition three pointer to Watson 7 seconds after Cameron made a transition layup to cut the lead to 3 with 7 minutes left. Why all 5 of our guys needed to be past halfcourt on basically a 2-on-1 or 3-on-1 break off a perimeter turnover is beyond me.
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richfame
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Post by richfame on Jan 6, 2016 18:37:05 GMT -5
Creighton is currently 3pt favorites. I hate to say it but I'd lay the wood here .... Right again
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richfame
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by richfame on Jan 6, 2016 18:45:23 GMT -5
I didn't read thru the thread but we lost the game due to poor defense. We refused to guard against the three. I don't get it. How can we give up 3 after 3. Why would we leave the shooters and collapse? Are the players dense? Is the coaching not preaching this message?
Also clearly too many turnovers down the stretch. It's season is so maddening! So much talent!
Again not very impressed with LJ peak. I was happy he made a three and attempted a few jumpers but still looking to take the basket to the hole. Over rated.
Tough game we could have won. Thought DSR, Hayes, govan played well. Govan was awesome.
Crazy season. If the Giants can fire TC you know we can do the same with JT3.
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SSHoya
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"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 6, 2016 18:53:34 GMT -5
I didn't read thru the thread but we lost the game due to poor defense. We refused to guard against the three. I don't get it. How can we give up 3 after 3. Why would we leave the shooters and collapse? Are the players dense? Is the coaching not preaching this message? Also clearly too many turnovers down the stretch. It's season is so maddening! So much talent! Again not very impressed with LJ peak. I was happy he made a three and attempted a few jumpers but still looking to take the basket to the hole. Over rated. Tough game we could have won. Thought DSR, Hayes, govan played well. Govan was awesome. Crazy season. If the Giants can fire TC you know we can do the same with JT3. Giants didn't fire Couglin he resigned (or so he says). That will never happen as long as JTII and Jack DeGioia are still around.
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richfame
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Post by richfame on Jan 6, 2016 19:01:17 GMT -5
I didn't read thru the thread but we lost the game due to poor defense. We refused to guard against the three. I don't get it. How can we give up 3 after 3. Why would we leave the shooters and collapse? Are the players dense? Is the coaching not preaching this message? Also clearly too many turnovers down the stretch. It's season is so maddening! So much talent! Again not very impressed with LJ peak. I was happy he made a three and attempted a few jumpers but still looking to take the basket to the hole. Over rated. Tough game we could have won. Thought DSR, Hayes, govan played well. Govan was awesome. Crazy season. If the Giants can fire TC you know we can do the same with JT3. Giants didn't fire Couglin he resigned (or so he says). That will never happen as long as JTII and Jack DeGioia are still around. It certainly seems from the owners comments that they needed a change. Last year the organization said if things did not get better changes would come. Things did not get better and changes came. The odd thing was how ownership said at nauseaum that it was the on field talent that was the biggest issue, yet the GM stays. Anyway, TC is a much more accomplished coach than maybe even pops and he got fired/ released. Just saying.
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SSHoya
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 6, 2016 19:13:05 GMT -5
Giants didn't fire Couglin he resigned (or so he says). That will never happen as long as JTII and Jack DeGioia are still around. It certainly seems from the owners comments that they needed a change. Last year the organization said if things did not get better changes would come. Things did not get better and changes came. The odd thing was how ownership said at nauseaum that it was the on field talent that was the biggest issue, yet the GM stays. Anyway, TC is a much more accomplished coach than maybe even pops and he got fired/ released. Just saying. Aside from the fact it is an apples/oranges comparison, do you think Georgetown woud fire JTIII with JTII still around and Jack DeGioia in charge? That's the main point of my comment
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richfame
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Post by richfame on Jan 6, 2016 19:47:06 GMT -5
It certainly seems from the owners comments that they needed a change. Last year the organization said if things did not get better changes would come. Things did not get better and changes came. The odd thing was how ownership said at nauseaum that it was the on field talent that was the biggest issue, yet the GM stays. Anyway, TC is a much more accomplished coach than maybe even pops and he got fired/ released. Just saying. Aside from the fact it is an apples/oranges comparison, do you think Georgetown woud fire JTIII with JTII still around and Jack DeGioia in charge? That's the main point of my comment So JT Jr. is 74, your saying it's set in stone that JT3 is with us as long as his dad is alive? Which can be near 20 years? I guess then we always have Ronnie Thompson as a alternative no?
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aristides
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Post by aristides on Jan 6, 2016 20:02:04 GMT -5
I just skimmed some posts so apologies if this was already covered...
I again, was really impressed with DSR's game until about midway through the second half. Then he just seemed gassed. I first noticed it on a loose ball in front of him and he was just stationary and flat-footed. It looked like he didn't have much loft on his jumpers after that and he wasn't the same player. I think 38 minutes in such a fast-paced game was maybe too much. But then again Watson played 39 and just seemed to get stronger as the game wore on.
I think alleninxis summed up the problem well with, "It's a team without anyone under 6'5 who can successfully corral a ball-handler" (Casualhoya). The flip-side to this though, as we have already seen, is that the Hoyas defense can be quite effective against teams that don't have quality penetrating point guards. This is a Jekyll & Hyde defense that I predict will do surprisingly well against good teams lacking that particular style of point guard.
And I keep telling myself this so I can get through this week... :-(
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lurkerhoya
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Post by lurkerhoya on Jan 6, 2016 20:04:09 GMT -5
In happier news, I am completely on board for the Jessie Govan Stretch-5 hype train! I wish I could screen shot that a second after I "liked" this, it showed me that SF had as well. #bros4life
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SSHoya
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"Forget it Jake, it's Chinatown."
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Post by SSHoya on Jan 6, 2016 20:11:26 GMT -5
Aside from the fact it is an apples/oranges comparison, do you think Georgetown woud fire JTIII with JTII still around and Jack DeGioia in charge? That's the main point of my comment So JT Jr. is 74, your saying it's set in stone that JT3 is with us as long as his dad is alive? Which can be near 20 years? I guess then we always have Ronnie Thompson as a alternative no? Not what I'm saying at all. The closest analogy to ThompsonII/ThompsonIII is DePaul and what happened after Ray Meyer retired. Joey Meyer took over and lasted 13 years (1984-97) with a good deal of success for 8 or so of those years. He missed 4 straight NCAAs starting in 1993 and his last season was 3-23 and then he was fired. JTIII has nowhere the record of declining success that Joey Meyer had in the last 4 or 5 years of his tenure. And I am saying the chances of JTII being canned in the near term is virtually zero. Especially with the IAC becoming completed this year. And Ronnie has nothing to do with this conversation. So you ARE saying that JTIII can be fired while II and Jack DeGioia are around? I have my doubts.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Jan 6, 2016 20:14:13 GMT -5
All I know is that every time I look at the opposing team's lineup and see 3 guards starting I get nervous. Creighton was well prepared for us to night; you have to give them credit.
I, for one, am resigning myself to the fact that we are a young team. Hopefully we can stay together and improve drastically down the road. We need a couple of very skilled, experienced guards--maybe transfers in the off season.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 6, 2016 20:34:25 GMT -5
Giants didn't fire Couglin he resigned (or so he says). That will never happen as long as JTII and Jack DeGioia are still around. It certainly seems from the owners comments that they needed a change. Last year the organization said if things did not get better changes would come. Things did not get better and changes came. The odd thing was how ownership said at nauseaum that it was the on field talent that was the biggest issue, yet the GM stays. Anyway, TC is a much more accomplished coach than maybe even pops and he got fired/ released. Just saying. Apples and oranges. Tom Coughlin did not create the New York Giants brand. That process was started by George Young and Bill Parcells years earlier. Is there any question that the Georgetown Hoyas basketball brand was created by Big John?
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vv83
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Post by vv83 on Jan 6, 2016 22:03:19 GMT -5
It certainly seems from the owners comments that they needed a change. Last year the organization said if things did not get better changes would come. Things did not get better and changes came. The odd thing was how ownership said at nauseaum that it was the on field talent that was the biggest issue, yet the GM stays. Anyway, TC is a much more accomplished coach than maybe even pops and he got fired/ released. Just saying. Apples and oranges. Tom Coughlin did not create the New York Giants brand. That process was started by George Young and Bill Parcells years earlier. Is there any question that the Georgetown Hoyas basketball brand was created by Big John? As a lifelong Giant fan, I can't resist jumping in on this digression - the origins of the Giant brand go back a lot further than Parcels.Young. From a player perspective - you could probably start earlier with their 1930s championships, but really the "brand" was built by the The 50s/60s giants of Connerly,Huff, Gifford, Webster, Rote, Tittle, etc. From a management/coaching perspective - the Mara family and the Steve Owen coaching era (with Landry and Lombardi as the top assistants) were the core elements. After a long 60s/70s hiatus of awful teams, Young and Parcells reinvigorated the brand with Phil Simms and LT (along with many others) as the on field leaders. I don't think any of that has a whole lot to do with the hoyas - but given how bad the Giants have been in recent years, and the struggles of the Hoyas this year, I am happy to clutch on to any happy memory about either team I can find right now!
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jan 6, 2016 22:21:53 GMT -5
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but the key juncture of the game, to me, was when Govan hit a three, putting us up by 4. Then Creighton misses a shot, and we have 1, 2, 3, 4 chances at collecting the rebound before we fumble it out of bounds giving them another possession. They hit a three off the inbounds. The game disintegrated very quickly from that point forward, and the worst thing is, I knew it was coming after we gave them that extra possession. Our mental resilience just isn't there. So predictable. And so frustrating. Yea that sequence was mentioned earlier. That was Cameron who had about three chances to corral the rebound but couldn't and eventually fumbled it out of bounds. Someone mentioned the injuries to White and Agau hurting the Hoyas depth earlier. Given the reports from Kenner, I think Agau would definitely have helped on defense and rebounding. I thought White would be a starter this year based on what he did last year. Agau possibly could have been the first option at center off the bench ,as he is same height as Hopkins. Love Cameron's improved confidence in his stroke, but if these two players were healthy and playing he would be a luxury 3pt specialist when teams played primarily zone. I would like III to try going small against teams like Creighton for longer periods of time. Let Derrickson or Mourning play center with Copeland at big forward Peak/Johnson at small forward and DSR and Tre at guard and go uptempo. ....he was the only one battling for that rebound while everyone else chose to watch and you're gonna criticize him....?
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richfame
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,266
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Post by richfame on Jan 6, 2016 22:57:14 GMT -5
It certainly seems from the owners comments that they needed a change. Last year the organization said if things did not get better changes would come. Things did not get better and changes came. The odd thing was how ownership said at nauseaum that it was the on field talent that was the biggest issue, yet the GM stays. Anyway, TC is a much more accomplished coach than maybe even pops and he got fired/ released. Just saying. Apples and oranges. Tom Coughlin did not create the New York Giants brand. That process was started by George Young and Bill Parcells years earlier. Is there any question that the Georgetown Hoyas basketball brand was created by Big John? TC helped mold the expansion JJ. He even had a hand in designing there uniforms. Took JJ to two Nfc champ games. So I'd say TC has a pillar in creating that brand. Beyond that he won two Super Bowls, probably under dogs in both.
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njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 6, 2016 23:01:21 GMT -5
Apples and oranges. Tom Coughlin did not create the New York Giants brand. That process was started by George Young and Bill Parcells years earlier. Is there any question that the Georgetown Hoyas basketball brand was created by Big John? As a lifelong Giant fan, I can't resist jumping in on this digression - the origins of the Giant brand go back a lot further than Parcels.Young. From a player perspective - you could probably start earlier with their 1930s championships, but really the "brand" was built by the The 50s/60s giants of Connerly,Huff, Gifford, Webster, Rote, Tittle, etc. From a management/coaching perspective - the Mara family and the Steve Owen coaching era (with Landry and Lombardi as the top assistants) were the core elements. After a long 60s/70s hiatus of awful teams, Young and Parcells reinvigorated the brand with Phil Simms and LT (along with many others) as the on field leaders. I don't think any of that has a whole lot to do with the hoyas - but given how bad the Giants have been in recent years, and the struggles of the Hoyas this year, I am happy to clutch on to any happy memory about either team I can find right now! I didn't start really following the Giants until the early 70s, around the time they were finishing their tenure at Yankee Stadium and moving to the Yale Bowl for a couple of seasons. They were horrible. I appreciated the Connerly etc era Giants, but was too young to really cite them as the example to compare with Tom Coughlin.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Jan 6, 2016 23:03:37 GMT -5
Apples and oranges. Tom Coughlin did not create the New York Giants brand. That process was started by George Young and Bill Parcells years earlier. Is there any question that the Georgetown Hoyas basketball brand was created by Big John? TC helped mold the expansion JJ. He even had a hand in designing there uniforms. Took JJ to two Nfc champ games. So I'd say TC has a pillar in creating that brand. Beyond that he won two Super Bowls, probably under dogs in both. Um, let's agree to disagree there. He is a Hall of Famer, irrespective of whether I feel he was instrumental in the Giants brand. One thing for sure. . .he is not to blame, at all, for the mess that the Giants have become. Jerry Reese should have been tossed before Coughlin.
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