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Post by BubbleVisionBiff on Jan 6, 2016 10:10:44 GMT -5
I think Hayes didn't get deep enough on the block early on and he seemed a little uncomfortable with his shot. He could/should have made a 2-3 of the 4 shots he missed. Maybe that changes the complexion of things a little bit. He got off early against Marquette and then the ball moved a lot better.
Just 1 on a list of lots of major problems from last night.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 6, 2016 10:12:04 GMT -5
I think Hayes' failure to / inability to take the ball into the paint is a huge problem. Recall the collective angst about Lubick doing the same? I think it is even worse with Hayes. The amount of space he was given by Creighton was embarrassing. If he simply took two dribbles, he would have been well into the paint and could have taken some pretty high percentage shots. He is either not capable of doing that or was coached not to do that. Either way, it is a huge flaw with this offense. Hayes isnt going to take jumpers from 8-10 feet. That's why he is given that space. Yes, he does need to be in the post to score, but the offense is set up for that. It gets the C into the post. I have to say, I really dont think play from the 5 has been an issue on offense. Defense is a different story. But, we stink across the board there.
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Post by HometownHoya on Jan 6, 2016 10:12:59 GMT -5
I think Hayes' failure to / inability to take the ball into the paint is a huge problem. Recall the collective angst about Lubick doing the same? I think it is even worse with Hayes. The amount of space he was given by Creighton was embarrassing. If he simply took two dribbles, he would have been well into the paint and could have taken some pretty high percentage shots. He is either not capable of doing that or was coached not to do that. Either way, it is a huge flaw with this offense. Agreed, complaining about him being up there isn't going to solve anything, our C will always come to the top of the key for some of the action in the offense...it's a strategy meant to create space at the basket for drivers/cutters and it often works. It didn't work yesterday with Hayes because he didn't make his man step up. He got the ball at the elbow a few times and needs to be comfortable at least taking that shot. They were playing 3 feet off him at the elbow, if he's not comfortable shooting, he needs to take a dribble or two towards the hoop (as you said) and make the defender react, not just sit in the paint. I do agree with the posters saying that Govan has the potential and should be getting the most PT, but we can't turn out back on Hayes. Jessie can't play over 25mpg at this point in his career. He's too young to be consistent over a 30 game season. He's not the best post defender. We need both of these guys but we need the both to be a threat on offense, even at the elbow/high post.
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Post by HometownHoya on Jan 6, 2016 10:15:02 GMT -5
Because JT3 has had the C come out to the high post since the day he started here, don't be intentionally dense I understand how the offense works, but if you are watching the game you see that opponents are not going out to guard Hayes and were not doing so with Govan until he hit his 3s. I guess a better question is why you run that particular offense with a player like Hayes when the opponent simply stays back to clog the lane and deny the pass to the cutter? I thought the same thing last year. That's not what I said. That was in response to TJI asking why we are bringing the C to the high post. It's because it is an offensive principal that we (and tons of other teams) use. I do agree that Hayes needs to present himself as a threat from the high post/elbow but just complaining about him being up there (like TJI does) won't solve the issue. If he would take one dribble forward, it would cause the defender to have to step up but somehow he's lost confidence in everything other then the hook shot.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 6, 2016 10:16:21 GMT -5
25 points and 12 rebounds from the combination of centers yesterday. Hayes played 18 minutes and Govan played 22. Im not following this argument.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Jan 6, 2016 10:34:09 GMT -5
25 points and 12 rebounds from the combination of centers yesterday. Hayes played 18 minutes and Govan played 22. Im not following this argument. Here is the issue, the last 2 games have had scoring droughts in the 2nd half During these droughts, Hayes is still coming to the top of the key where he is not an offensive threat. Therefore when the team needs a bucket and you take Hayes out of his potential scoring range, it appears that the offensive strategy is adding to the continuation of the scoring drought. Then the question becomes, should Hayes still be coming to the top of the key when the team needs a bucket during a scoring drought?
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 6, 2016 10:42:41 GMT -5
25 points and 12 rebounds from the combination of centers yesterday. Hayes played 18 minutes and Govan played 22. Im not following this argument. Here is the issue, the last 2 games have had scoring droughts in the 2nd half During these droughts, Hayes is still coming to the top of the key where he is not an offensive threat. Therefore when the team needs a bucket and you take Hayes out of his potential scoring range, it appears that the offensive strategy is adding to the continuation of the scoring drought. Then the question becomes, should Hayes still be coming to the top of the key when the team needs a bucket during a scoring drought? Respect your opinion, but agree to disagree. In fact, I would argue that the play from the 5 last night was the most positive and hopeful thing I saw. Govan hitting those 3s was beautiful to see and hopefully, this opens the floor even more for us. The problem is that Peak is too reckless and Copeland isnt reckless enough. Neither can get to the basket and neither have found their shooting.
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drquigley
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Post by drquigley on Jan 6, 2016 10:46:09 GMT -5
Face it , it's not the offense that kills us it's the defense, especially the second half defense. We used to pride ourselves on holding teams to less than 40% shooting and keeping them from scoring more than 65 points. If we were doing that now we have more than enough offense to compete for a BE championship and NCAA berth. Dear God, UNC Charlotte scored 54 points against us in the second half! Creighton guards were blowing by us in the second half. Is it fatigue? Boredom? Laziness? I would agree that the talent level isn't there if we were being blown out all game but it seems to occur in 5-10 minute bursts at the end of the game. Can someone please run the numbers for our defensive performance in the first 30 minutes of games v. the last 10 minutes?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 6, 2016 10:47:01 GMT -5
25 points and 12 rebounds from the combination of centers yesterday. Hayes played 18 minutes and Govan played 22. Im not following this argument. Here is the issue, the last 2 games have had scoring droughts in the 2nd half During these droughts, Hayes is still coming to the top of the key where he is not an offensive threat. Therefore when the team needs a bucket and you take Hayes out of his potential scoring range, it appears that the offensive strategy is adding to the continuation of the scoring drought. Then the question becomes, should Hayes still be coming to the top of the key when the team needs a bucket during a scoring drought? College basketball teams run a number of different plays. 80% of teams have plays where their big man comes out, sometimes to screen, sometimes to get the ball up high do that the others can cut, screen, pop, etc. Most of those bigs can't shoot from outside. We also have plays where our bigs set up on the blocks to get the ball. Your solution to a scoring drought is to totally eliminate at least half of our plays, so that the defense will have even fewer options to have to defend? Hmmm, let me think about that . . .
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jan 6, 2016 10:54:23 GMT -5
Face it , it's not the offense that kills us it's the defense, especially the second half defense. We used to pride ourselves on holding teams to less than 40% shooting and keeping them from scoring more than 65 points. If we were doing that now we have more than enough offense to compete for a BE championship and NCAA berth. Spot on, and the coach addressed this in his comments found in the Voice article (kudos to the Voice for being the only local paper with actual coverage this morning. georgetownvoice.com/2016/01/06/omaha-stakes-hoyas-fall-short-in-crucial-road-loss-to-creighton/
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Jan 6, 2016 11:02:17 GMT -5
25 points and 12 rebounds from the combination of centers yesterday. Hayes played 18 minutes and Govan played 22. Im not following this argument. That's obviously a fair point (although 9 of those 25 points were Govan's 3-pointers). And, even more obvious is that our defense was the problem and continues to be so. My point was that even though we had good production from the 5 position last night, the inability to draw defenders out contributed to the poor production from others. The lane was clogged because of that failure. Don't get me wrong, there is no way I am pinning the collapse at the end of the game on Hayes. But that is a pretty big flaw in the offense, and it creates problems. Another flaw is the lack of offensive rebounding. Someone else made the point earlier (last night) - our guys are streaking down the court to play D when a shot is launched; no one is crashing the boards. Now, that would be fine if those guys streaking down the court established position and made stops. However, we all saw that this was clearly not the case, as the matador defense on Watson was just plain embarrassing.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jan 6, 2016 11:38:00 GMT -5
I understand how the offense works, but if you are watching the game you see that opponents are not going out to guard Hayes and were not doing so with Govan until he hit his 3s. I guess a better question is why you run that particular offense with a player like Hayes when the opponent simply stays back to clog the lane and deny the pass to the cutter? I thought the same thing last year. That's not what I said. That was in response to TJI asking why we are bringing the C to the high post. It's because it is an offensive principal that we (and tons of other teams) use. I do agree that Hayes needs to present himself as a threat from the high post/elbow but just complaining about him being up there (like TJI does) won't solve the issue. If he would take one dribble forward, it would cause the defender to have to step up but somehow he's lost confidence in everything other then the hook shot. Sorry I misread your post.
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Post by grandmahoya on Jan 6, 2016 11:56:42 GMT -5
Face it , it's not the offense that kills us it's the defense, especially the second half defense. We used to pride ourselves on holding teams to less than 40% shooting and keeping them from scoring more than 65 points. If we were doing that now we have more than enough offense to compete for a BE championship and NCAA berth. Dear God, UNC Charlotte scored 54 points against us in the second half! Creighton guards were blowing by us in the second half. Is it fatigue? Boredom? Laziness? I would agree that the talent level isn't there if we were being blown out all game but it seems to occur in 5-10 minute bursts at the end of the game. Can someone please run the numbers for our defensive performance in the first 30 minutes of games v. the last 10 minutes? No one player is ON every night, that's why substitutions are so key, especially at the end of games. I remember with Big John's teams he always had so much depth, as does this team, and he constantly put fresh bodies in to frustrate his opponents. Three guys in, three guys out, just like a revolving door. He got teams crazy and confused with his substitutions. Nobody got stale in his games and if they did they were out! We could use a little chip off the old block, when it comes to our defense!
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 6, 2016 13:00:46 GMT -5
The loss of Akoy and Paul certainly hurts much of the great depth we expected to have. We still have some lineup flexibility - but the problem last night was that too many of our guys had poor nights. Replacing one non-productive player with another one does not help.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 6, 2016 13:26:56 GMT -5
The loss of Akoy and Paul certainly hurts much of the great depth we expected to have. We still have some lineup flexibility - but the problem last night was that too many of our guys had poor nights. Replacing one non-productive player with another one does not help. Given that Agau averaged less than a point a game as a freshman, probably not. Until we see him in game action, we don't know. HoyaTalk tends to overstate the value of any Georgetown big man, especially international talent. For the most part, Georgetown's track record with foreign players not named Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo is below average.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Jan 6, 2016 14:40:14 GMT -5
What's going on with this team? It's painful to watch and it seems to evade even the most modest expectations coming into the season. Go Hoyas. I don't think anyone anticipated this would be arguably the worst defensive team of the JT3 era. I shared multiple times that we might miss Hopkins, Jabril, and Bowen more than many expected.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 6, 2016 14:53:40 GMT -5
The loss of Akoy and Paul certainly hurts much of the great depth we expected to have. We still have some lineup flexibility - but the problem last night was that too many of our guys had poor nights. Replacing one non-productive player with another one does not help. Given that Agau averaged less than a point a game as a freshman, probably not. Until we see him in game action, we don't know. HoyaTalk tends to overstate the value of any Georgetown big man, especially international talent. For the most part, Georgetown's track record with foreign players not named Dikembe Mutombo Mpolondo Mukamba Jean-Jacques Wamutombo is below average. I wasn't predicting first-team Big East for goodness sakes, just additional depth. Given our rebounding problems, every big guy can help.
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Post by goyahoya69 on Jan 6, 2016 15:28:50 GMT -5
Kind of what I meant, but that was me being sarcastic and tired of plays like that; I agree with you. I've rambled on here only once before about JTIII, but only complaint that I'm comfortable with now is that Kaleb needs to play a lot more. There is no evidence that Tre should be playing more than Kaleb at this point. The Tre experiment has failed. There seems to be a reason he wasn't a top 100 recruit. The coaching staff blew it in their evaluation of him. Hopefully Mosley will take his minutes next year, but in the meantime, Kaleb has earned the playing time. That is an overly harsh comment, man. We're only 1.5 years into tre's time here. By your logic, we shouldn't expect much out of Jagan (not in anyone's top 100) or kaleb (fringe top 100 player). On top of that, it seemed like tre wanted to be a Hoya for a long time, having gone to that St. John's high school in DC. Please don't say things like "tre has failed" about good kids/bball players who want to be Hoyas - there aren't many of them, so we should want them.
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Hoya Rich
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Post by Hoya Rich on Jan 6, 2016 15:34:58 GMT -5
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but the key juncture of the game, to me, was when Govan hit a three, putting us up by 4. Then Creighton misses a shot, and we have 1, 2, 3, 4 chances at collecting the rebound before we fumble it out of bounds giving them another possession. They hit a three off the inbounds. The game disintegrated very quickly from that point forward, and the worst thing is, I knew it was coming after we gave them that extra possession. Our mental resilience just isn't there. So predictable. And so frustrating.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Jan 6, 2016 16:29:04 GMT -5
Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but the key juncture of the game, to me, was when Govan hit a three, putting us up by 4. Then Creighton misses a shot, and we have 1, 2, 3, 4 chances at collecting the rebound before we fumble it out of bounds giving them another possession. They hit a three off the inbounds. The game disintegrated very quickly from that point forward, and the worst thing is, I knew it was coming after we gave them that extra possession. Our mental resilience just isn't there. So predictable. And so frustrating. Cameron had like 3 of those 4 chances at that rebound. I'll admit I was screaming at the TV / JT3 about him still being in the game at that point. GAHHHH so frustrating. Also, I hate harping on Cameron--as I've said before, he's been a solid bench guy this year, and I've been happy with the way he's played generally. He was just so bad last night, for whatever reason, and there was no reason for JT3 to leave him in.
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