njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,766
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Post by njhoya78 on Nov 15, 2015 12:40:01 GMT -5
Yesterday's loss was horrible. No question about it. However, this thread, and the inevitable meltdown that always occurs on HoyaTalk after any loss, are reasons why I won't even log-in immediately after a Hoya defeat. Misery does not love company here.
The program expectations and demands posited on HoyaTalk are wildly insane. A little dose of reality and perspective wouldn't be a bad thing every now and then.
We played poorly defensively all game. We rebounded poorly, despite a decided height advantage. To paraphrase a Bill Chadwick-ism (for you old-time Rangers fans out there), our foul shooters in the second half could not have put the ball in the ocean if they were standing on the dock. We didn't take Radford seriously, even when the Hoyas had fought back to finally take an eight-point lead after trailing for the entire game. Had the three-pointer in the final second of the second overtime not fallen, we would have stolen this game. GU did not deserve to win. Radford did. Kudos to the Highlanders.
Will this be a "teaching opportunity" for the coaching staff? I don't know, and I won't know even after the gauntlet of Maryland/Wisconsin/Duke or VCU has been run. What I do know is that HoyaTalk will be unreadable if this team starts off with a four-game losing streak. I'm not going to throw anybody under the bus after one game, or even four games, and anyone who does so is overreacting in the worst way.
Feel free to flame away. I'm going to take a break from posting anything further until I post the "Games of Interest" thread tomorrow. Believe it or not, there is a life outside of the daily ups-and-downs of Hoya basketball, and I'm going to partake of it.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 15, 2015 12:46:26 GMT -5
I think somebody should figure out how to reinforce the sky, because it seems to fall with unusual ease here. Wait - skyhoya fell? Is he okay??
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Massholya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,939
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Post by Massholya on Nov 15, 2015 14:04:44 GMT -5
How will this discussion change when we are 0-4. A sickeningly real possibility. Yeah and 0-26 is technically a real sickeningly possibilitiy, doesn't mean it's gonna happen Great point.
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Post by Hoyasaxa20 on Nov 15, 2015 15:27:46 GMT -5
1st game of the season.... I mean this is some stupid.... No, it's naive to think this is about one game. It's about the last 7-8 years of bad losses & early exits in the NCAA tournament with this coaching staff. NCAA results 2008- lost 1st round 2009- NIT 2010- lost 2nd round 2011- lost 1st round 2012- lost 2nd round 2013- lost 1st round 2014- NIT 2015- lost 2nd round This coaching staff hasn't made it to the 2nd weekend of the NCAA tournament in over 8 years!!! Sorry that's not just one game, that's a pattern of underperforming.
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Post by Hoyasaxa20 on Nov 15, 2015 15:32:19 GMT -5
I think your posts show a pattern Of underperforming...lol You're not going to fire a coach after the 1st game of the season.. not sure if serious.. I never said I wanted anyone fired, especially right now after only one game. All I said was JT3 should be on the hot seat. We all know this team has had some very bad seasons & horrible losses the last 7-8 years. He should be evaluated like any other coach. Being the son of John Thompson shouldn't stop that evaluation. All - Let's accept a simple truth: The value of a coach is measure in his/her ability to outperform given the tools and resources he has at his disposal. JT3 is clearly value destructive at this point. He has excellent talent (which I give him credit for recruiting), excellent resources, a huge salary, and yet for 7-8 years he has CONSISTENTLY underperformed the expectations of the school, the alumni, the media, and the NCAA committee. This isn't about one game. The only constant variable over the last 8 years was JT3. It's time to accept that he is the problem.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 17,736
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 15, 2015 16:02:19 GMT -5
I never said I wanted anyone fired, especially right now after only one game. All I said was JT3 should be on the hot seat. We all know this team has had some very bad seasons & horrible losses the last 7-8 years. He should be evaluated like any other coach. Being the son of John Thompson shouldn't stop that evaluation. All - Let's accept a simple truth: The value of a coach is measure in his/her ability to outperform given the tools and resources he has at his disposal. JT3 is clearly value destructive at this point. He has excellent talent (which I give him credit for recruiting), excellent resources, a huge salary, and yet for 7-8 years he has CONSISTENTLY underperformed the expectations of the school, the alumni, the media, and the NCAA committee. This isn't about one game. The only constant variable over the last 8 years was JT3. It's time to accept that he is the problem. Much of the alumni, the school and the media disagree with you. So... this is is part of his performance, no? I mean, part of the recruiting is certainly III and the Thompson name? What are these resources? Please enumerate. McDonough? The fact that we make kids go to class? The sweet freshmen dorms that look like prisons compared to what top schools are putting out there? Verizon's a nice place when it's empty, but in a game it's hardly a selling point versus a sold out arena. The team history that Esherick had almost squandered until III came? Please, let me know. While this is relevant in a discussion of a replacement, it's not really in terms of performance expectations. I mean, he can't use his salary to bribe the opposing team or anything. The only place Thompson and his teams have underperformed any sane person's expectations are in the NCAA tournament. Your use of "eight years" instead of his full tenure tells me you're a troll who isn't interested in actually understanding anything but just interested in proving your predetermined point. But here are Thompson's seeds, in including the ones you intentionally ignored because they don't support your narrative: 7,2,2,3,6,3,2,4. I see that Thompson gets absolutely no credit for earning these seeds or only missing the tourney 3 times. He and his team earned those seeds (except maybe the last one, that was generous) -- but for you, of course, a single elimination tournament means everything. Because that makes sense in any honest evaluation of a 30-odd game season. Now, you're 100% right his teams have underperformed seeds in the NCAA tournament, by about 5.5 games. That's a lot, and perhaps I'm wrong and Thompson is truly the cause of all that -- though you showed that it's far from certain since you cut off our coach's FINAL FOUR run from your time period because it wasn't convenient for you. But you've provided no evidence at all that he's underperformed his resources. Throwing out words without specifics is a weak argument. You are 100% right that our team is in a dangerous place with the Big East like it is, but apparently you would like to toss away a coach who had the team in the Top 10 for eight straight years (I believe that's right), that has won a ton of games and earned top seeds because of single elimination tourney performance. Please tell me the coach who is guaranteed to come and be better.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 15, 2015 16:55:31 GMT -5
[ Please tell me the coach who is guaranteed to come and be better. Great post. And this is really the ultimate question. People talk a big game, but I have a legitimately never seen - in any of HoyaTalk's numerous threads on JT3 - any suggestions of potential replacements that have proven records as good or better than JT3.
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by kchoya on Nov 15, 2015 17:27:35 GMT -5
I never said I wanted anyone fired, especially right now after only one game. All I said was JT3 should be on the hot seat. We all know this team has had some very bad seasons & horrible losses the last 7-8 years. He should be evaluated like any other coach. Being the son of John Thompson shouldn't stop that evaluation. All - Let's accept a simple truth: The value of a coach is measure in his/her ability to outperform given the tools and resources he has at his disposal. JT3 is clearly value destructive at this point. He has excellent talent (which I give him credit for recruiting), excellent resources, a huge salary, and yet for 7-8 years he has CONSISTENTLY underperformed the expectations of the school, the alumni, the media, and the NCAA committee. This isn't about one game. The only constant variable over the last 8 years was JT3. It's time to accept that he is the problem. Value destructive? Your post should be ignored just for using that horrible phrase.
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playtyler
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 244
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Post by playtyler on Nov 15, 2015 17:57:03 GMT -5
The real issue here is the same as it has been for the last few years. The players. We had two classes (after the Porter, Trawick, Whittington, Hopkins class) that were disasters. The seniors are Hayes and DSR. While some are DSR apologists, he is not a winning player. Worst defender in the big east. Guards seem to have the best games of their lives against us lately. He scored 0 points in first half. We have freak athletes all over (Copeland, Peak, Campbell, Govan, White) and do not EVER fast break because DSR walks it up every time. He is an above-average shooter. That's it. Hayes showed well against an undersized team (as he did against E. Wash.) but has not given us anything (other than E.Wash) in three years. Cameron made a three yesterday, but has been really bad for the first couple years. That's it. That's our Junior and Senior classes, DSR, Hayes and Cameron. We will be much better in two years if we keep up the recruiting and Copeland, Peak, White, Campbell stick around. Thompson deserves some blame for those classes which have no athletes, no one who can defend, no one who can rebound. I hope Govan and Derrickson settle in. I look forward to seeing them progress. Same with Peak, White, Copeland and Campbell. With some help next year, we could be pretty good even with no senior class. You can't take two years off from recruiting and not pay for it. That is why we had so many new assistants recently. I really want to beat Maryland and Syracuse this year. Otherwise, I am looking for growth in our Freshman and Sophomores and graduation from our upperclassmen.
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TC
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 9,442
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Post by TC on Nov 15, 2015 18:00:17 GMT -5
No, it's naive to think this is about one game. It's about the last 7-8 years of bad losses & early exits in the NCAA tournament with this coaching staff. NCAA results 2008- lost 1st round 2009- NIT 2010- lost 2nd round 2011- lost 1st round 2012- lost 2nd round 2013- lost 1st round 2014- NIT 2015- lost 2nd round This coaching staff hasn't made it to the 2nd weekend of the NCAA tournament in over 8 years!!! Sorry that's not just one game, that's a pattern of underperforming. If this is your metric for success, then you should disappear until March and then come back and complain based on what happens in March. This game is not a reason to come out of the woodwork to complain about because JT3 has been a ridiculously successful in-season coach.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 15, 2015 19:22:16 GMT -5
If this is your metric for success, then you should disappear until March and then come back and complain based on what happens in March. This game is not a reason to come out of the woodwork to complain about because JT3 has been a ridiculously successful in-season coach. The irony is we could limp into the NCAA tournament as, let's say, a 9 or 10 seed, and make the Sweet 16, and some people would call it the best "season" since 2007.
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skyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,496
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Post by skyhoya on Nov 15, 2015 19:26:27 GMT -5
I think somebody should figure out how to reinforce the sky, because it seems to fall with unusual ease here. Wait - skyhoya fell? Is he okay?? I am alive and well, just above the crap. III has a life time contract. Big ugly lives matter, too. . .
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Posts: 9,934
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Post by kchoya on Nov 15, 2015 19:32:16 GMT -5
The real issue here is the same as it has been for the last few years. The players. We had two classes (after the Porter, Trawick, Whittington, Hopkins class) that were disasters. The seniors are Hayes and DSR. While some are DSR apologists, he is not a winning player. Worst defender in the big east. Guards seem to have the best games of their lives against us lately. He scored 0 points in first half. We have freak athletes all over (Copeland, Peak, Campbell, Govan, White) and do not EVER fast break because DSR walks it up every time. He is an above-average shooter. That's it. Hayes showed well against an undersized team (as he did against E. Wash.) but has not given us anything (other than E.Wash) in three years. Cameron made a three yesterday, but has been really bad for the first couple years. That's it. That's our Junior and Senior classes, DSR, Hayes and Cameron. We will be much better in two years if we keep up the recruiting and Copeland, Peak, White, Campbell stick around. Thompson deserves some blame for those classes which have no athletes, no one who can defend, no one who can rebound. I hope Govan and Derrickson settle in. I look forward to seeing them progress. Same with Peak, White, Copeland and Campbell. With some help next year, we could be pretty good even with no senior class. You can't take two years off from recruiting and not pay for it. That is why we had so many new assistants recently. I really want to beat Maryland and Syracuse this year. Otherwise, I am looking for growth in our Freshman and Sophomores and graduation from our upperclassmen. If you think DSR is the problem, you're a moron.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 15, 2015 20:05:19 GMT -5
DSR is definitely not the problem overall, though he cannot play like he did yesterday if we are going to win tough games. I do think there's an argument that he is being forced into a role (point) that he's not naturally adept at playing. I just think DSR does better when he plays off-ball, but unless Thompson plays Campbell a lot, there's no real alternative.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Nov 15, 2015 20:32:34 GMT -5
3's teams always start slow so maybe it's a blessing in disguise. Is that true (back by numbers)? I don't want to do the research, but it seems to me we have been pretty good in the OOCs under JT3.
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mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by mfk24 on Nov 15, 2015 20:34:57 GMT -5
DSR is definitely not the problem overall, though he cannot play like he did yesterday if we are going to win tough games. I do think there's an argument that he is being forced into a role (point) that he's not naturally adept at playing. I just think DSR does better when he plays off-ball, but unless Thompson plays Campbell a lot, there's no real alternative. Thompson has had success with combo-type guards playing the point, but I think DSR isn't terribly unsuited for the role. I just don't think he has a point guard's understanding of the game. He doesn't know when to push, when to slow it down, when to feed the post, when to look for his own shot, etc. He needs to play with the ball in his hands but I don't think he's shown that he can run the team. I also wonder what kind of team leader he is. And I don't mean that in a bad way, just some people aren't cut out for it. You expect your team leader to light a fire under guys that don't step up or are playing lackadaisical, but he himself admitted to coming out flat, so what kind of example is that for the young guys. Some might say that's a cue from III, but I'm not sure I buy it.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Nov 15, 2015 20:35:03 GMT -5
DSR is definitely not the problem overall, though he cannot play like he did yesterday if we are going to win tough games. I do think there's an argument that he is being forced into a role (point) that he's not naturally adept at playing. I just think DSR does better when he plays off-ball, but unless Thompson plays Campbell a lot, there's no real alternative. He played off the ball when Campbell and DSR when in together. Don't excuse DSR. He blamed himself for coming out flat. Simple as that. Now he needs to make sure it doesn't happen again until past April.
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bamahoya11
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bamahoya11 on Nov 15, 2015 20:58:18 GMT -5
What an interesting but loaded discussion. Guess I'll try to wade in delicately with a couple of thoughts. I frankly think it's really hard to have a "state of the program" discussion one game into a new season. We have to watch the season play out and see what happens, then look at broader trends. If we play the way we played against Radford for the entire season or, worse yet, for two seasons, then I would be inclined to agree that fans have a right to grow restless. But I don't think it's time for concern now.
First, I think that the early non-conference losses and futility in the NCAAs are two separate problems. Losses like we had on Saturday are very rare at Georgetown. Outside our loss to Northeastern a few years ago and being upset by Old Dominion a couple of times, I can't really remember a comparable loss. And these losses happen to a lot of teams early in the year. Thus, I don't view this problem--losing games to tiny non-conference teams in November and December--to be some sort of systemic problem for the program. Each year, once the season plays out, we usually have a resume that the selection committee deems worthy. Indeed, I tend to think some of our issues in the tournament have come when the committee has given us too much respect and over-seeded us by a spot or two. For that matter, I think that few people could say honestly that our problem has been a lack of regular-season success. Even two years ago when we had injuries, suspensions, and everything bugging us, we knocked off a top-10 Michigan St. team on a neutral floor. JTIII has amassed a whole lot of successful regular seasons, and that has set us up for the chance to play for a championship in March. If we can fix our execution and play more cohesively on defense, I think we'll probably be back this March with that same opportunity--to play for a championship.
Second, we then get to the elephant in the room--the NCAA tournament. Yes, we have had some bad early tournament losses. But we didn't lose to a mid-major in the NCAAs last year. We handily beat Eastern Washington. The team that knocked us out was one of the best teams in the PAC-12. Almost all of the players who were on our last mid-major upset are now gone. It's a new group, and JTIII has been rather open about adjusting his philosophy to adapt to the NCAA tournament. I'm willing to believe that the staff has exorcised some of its tournament demons with that performance. I could be completely wrong, but I'm willing to reserve judgment until they get another shot at the Big Dance.
So, I think there's still a lot to play for this season. We can still win the Big East, get a top-4 seed in the tournament, and win a championship. Of course, we could also completely flop. I tend to think it's worth giving the players, the staff, and the administration the benefit of the doubt and seeing how things play out from now until March.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by prhoya on Nov 15, 2015 22:40:54 GMT -5
I also wonder what kind of team leader he is. And I don't mean that in a bad way, just some people aren't cut out for it. You expect your team leader to light a fire under guys that don't step up or are playing lackadaisical, but he himself admitted to coming out flat, so what kind of example is that for the young guys. Some might say that's a cue from III, but I'm not sure I buy it. Yesterday, DSR reminded me of Austin Freeman: lackadaisical at times, but still stuffing the stat sheet. I'm a big DSR fan. From the interviews, tweets, etc..., he likes to play with a chip on the shoulder and I think he'll take it out on Maryland.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 16, 2015 0:17:17 GMT -5
DSR is definitely not the problem overall, though he cannot play like he did yesterday if we are going to win tough games. I do think there's an argument that he is being forced into a role (point) that he's not naturally adept at playing. I just think DSR does better when he plays off-ball, but unless Thompson plays Campbell a lot, there's no real alternative. He played off the ball when Campbell and DSR when in together. Don't excuse DSR. He blamed himself for coming out flat. Simple as that. Now he needs to make sure it doesn't happen again until past April. Oh, I totally agree. He was flat and didn't play up to par. He needs to do better.
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