McBricks
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
What Rocks.
Posts: 1,173
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Post by McBricks on Apr 6, 2015 15:40:50 GMT -5
Can I ask all you fine people a question? I was talking to my wife over the weekend about DSR (yes, she's cool like that) and she thinks it's complete BS that once you declare for the draft (and sign with an agent), that you can't play any longer at the collegiate level. I tried (and failed) to explain why this rule "made sense." Her beef was - - The NCAA makes a ton off these players but won't allow them to make any money. So why not let him declare for the draft, sign with an agent (who doesn't pay him anything) and test the waters? If those waters are frigid, let him come back to school. I agree with this actually.
So why does this rule make sense?
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Enter your message here...
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Post by kchoya on Apr 6, 2015 15:57:09 GMT -5
Can I ask all you fine people a question? I was talking to my wife over the weekend about DSR (yes, she's cool like that) and she thinks it's complete BS that once you declare for the draft (and sign with an agent), that you can't play any longer at the collegiate level. I tried (and failed) to explain why this rule "made sense." Her beef was - - The NCAA makes a ton off these players but won't allow them to make any money. So why not let him declare for the draft, sign with an agent (who doesn't pay him anything) and test the waters? If those waters are frigid, let him come back to school. I agree with this actually. So why does this rule make sense? How about letting players get drafted (or enter the draft) out of HS, and if they don't like, they go to college for, say, three years before going back in the draft. Nevermind. The NCAA would never go for a crazy scheme like that.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Apr 6, 2015 16:00:07 GMT -5
Can I ask all you fine people a question? I was talking to my wife over the weekend about DSR (yes, she's cool like that) and she thinks it's complete BS that once you declare for the draft (and sign with an agent), that you can't play any longer at the collegiate level. I tried (and failed) to explain why this rule "made sense." Her beef was - - The NCAA makes a ton off these players but won't allow them to make any money. So why not let him declare for the draft, sign with an agent (who doesn't pay him anything) and test the waters? If those waters are frigid, let him come back to school. I agree with this actually. So why does this rule make sense? I don't think the rule really does make sense, but the theory behind the rule is that once you sign with an agent, you are a professional player, in that you're engaging the services of someone to assist you with your professional career. And once you've taken that step (i.e., you've signaled that you're a professional), you're no longer an amateur, and you're ineligible. I will say that players are free to speak with agents and, presumably obtain advice from them without losing eligibility. So, there's no reason a player can't get full advice from any number of people (scouts, etc.) and retain eligibility. Next year, as you probably know, players will actually be able to go through the pre-draft camps and workouts and then pull their name back. Still can't "sign" with an agent, but you'll be much more able to really test yourself against other prospects.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,360
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Post by calhoya on Apr 6, 2015 16:46:43 GMT -5
The fallacy of this entire "amateur" sport governed by the NCAA is that every player in college who is on a scholarship is a professional athlete. They are being paid to play. They are provided medical insurance and care, as well as food and lodging. Like other professionals they continue to be paid if injured and like other professionals they can be terminated under their yearly contract with the university. The only true amateur basketball players in the NCAA are playing at the Division III level.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Apr 6, 2015 16:48:52 GMT -5
It's been several days since this announcement and I still can't believe it. Shocked. What a total bummer.
Time for Tre and Peak to shine in the backcourt.
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Buckets
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,656
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Post by Buckets on Apr 6, 2015 17:09:08 GMT -5
Can I ask all you fine people a question? I was talking to my wife over the weekend about DSR (yes, she's cool like that) and she thinks it's complete BS that once you declare for the draft (and sign with an agent), that you can't play any longer at the collegiate level. I tried (and failed) to explain why this rule "made sense." Her beef was - - The NCAA makes a ton off these players but won't allow them to make any money. So why not let him declare for the draft, sign with an agent (who doesn't pay him anything) and test the waters? If those waters are frigid, let him come back to school. I agree with this actually. So why does this rule make sense? It makes sense insofar as you realize that the rules are mostly made by and for the coaches. This was not the rule as recently as the last Hoyas successful NCAA tournament: Randolph Morris declared in 2005, went undrafted. The rules at that time stipulated that he could come back, he did, then he was both NBA free agent and college player. He was playing in the round of 32 in 2007 and by the end of the week (after Kentucky was eliminated) he signed with the Knicks. As this system benefited the player and hurt the coach it was deemed a "loophole" and the rule was changed. This change was similar to greatly shortening the length of time that players have to work out in front of NBA teams to basically zero because it was creating roster uncertainty for coaches. Under the NBA CBA, you have until ten days before (or June 15 this year) the draft to withdraw; for instance, Roy went through the process and announced he was coming back on May 23, 2007. Under NCAA rules instituted in 2010 the deadline has to do with the spring signing period and is April 14 this year. So if Sam Dekker wants some feedback from NBA scouts he has a week -- good luck!
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,328
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Post by tashoya on Apr 6, 2015 17:17:43 GMT -5
Can I ask all you fine people a question? I was talking to my wife over the weekend about DSR (yes, she's cool like that) and she thinks it's complete BS that once you declare for the draft (and sign with an agent), that you can't play any longer at the collegiate level. I tried (and failed) to explain why this rule "made sense." Her beef was - - The NCAA makes a ton off these players but won't allow them to make any money. So why not let him declare for the draft, sign with an agent (who doesn't pay him anything) and test the waters? If those waters are frigid, let him come back to school. I agree with this actually. So why does this rule make sense? I take offense to the "fine people" part. That said, while I understand the "spirit" of the rule, I think it's a stupid one as well. Among the many things I don't understand, why does one need an agent before being drafted? Also, why can't a kid get drafted and, assuming he's displeased with his draft position, return to school? Especially second round guys. I assume it's because it costs the teams that draft them but aren't there players that are drafted in Europe that never make it to the team that drafted them?
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Apr 6, 2015 17:28:50 GMT -5
Can I ask all you fine people a question? I was talking to my wife over the weekend about DSR (yes, she's cool like that) and she thinks it's complete BS that once you declare for the draft (and sign with an agent), that you can't play any longer at the collegiate level. I tried (and failed) to explain why this rule "made sense." Her beef was - - The NCAA makes a ton off these players but won't allow them to make any money. So why not let him declare for the draft, sign with an agent (who doesn't pay him anything) and test the waters? If those waters are frigid, let him come back to school. I agree with this actually. So why does this rule make sense? I take offense to the "fine people" part. That said, while I understand the "spirit" of the rule, I think it's a stupid one as well. Among the many things I don't understand, why does one need an agent before being drafted? Also, why can't a kid get drafted and, assuming he's displeased with his draft position, return to school? Especially second round guys. I assume it's because it costs the teams that draft them but aren't there players that are drafted in Europe that never make it to the team that drafted them? I think you'd hire an agent prior to the draft so that you could get advice from a third party with fewer ulterior motives than your coach may have. He'd also presumably be able to advise you on all of your possible options, so that you'd know what the back-up plans (like Europe, China or the NBDL) would actually be like. Nothing against JT3, but I doubt he's fully on top of what Chinese clubs are looking for / willing to pay for players.
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,328
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Post by tashoya on Apr 6, 2015 17:30:49 GMT -5
I take offense to the "fine people" part. That said, while I understand the "spirit" of the rule, I think it's a stupid one as well. Among the many things I don't understand, why does one need an agent before being drafted? Also, why can't a kid get drafted and, assuming he's displeased with his draft position, return to school? Especially second round guys. I assume it's because it costs the teams that draft them but aren't there players that are drafted in Europe that never make it to the team that drafted them? I think you'd hire an agent prior to the draft so that you could get advice from a third party with fewer ulterior motives than your coach may have. He'd also presumably be able to advise you on all of your possible options, so that you'd know what the back-up plans (like Europe, China or the NBDL) would actually be like. I guess that makes sense. I guess I just have a very Pollyanna mind in thinking that a guy's coach would have his best interest at heart. I get the conflict. I suppose I just don't really think of agents as being all about their clients' best interests either.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Apr 6, 2015 20:35:03 GMT -5
Why not just let the NBA draft kids at 18 let them go to prep school and then on to college. then you can make a decision based upon ability and a teams need if you would make the move and sign a contract. If done correctly the NBA brings in more seasoned talent and should be able to limit big time contracts to unproven talent. The only problem is the NBA talent evaluators would actually have to do a job. Then again it just might destroy college hoops.
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Just Cos
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Eat 'em up Hoyas
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Post by Just Cos on Apr 6, 2015 20:57:46 GMT -5
College kids are talking (directly or indirectly) to agents plenty before they sign. School/program/coach relationships with agents exist everywhere and there is no lack of advice.
The rule has nothing to do with their "amateur" status. It is a fairly dumb rule but on par with the NCAA's general competency.
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njhoya78
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 7,775
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Post by njhoya78 on Apr 6, 2015 22:26:52 GMT -5
Why not just let the NBA draft kids at 18 let them go to prep school and then on to college. then you can make a decision based upon ability and a teams need if you would make the move and sign a contract. If done correctly the NBA brings in more seasoned talent and should be able to limit big time contracts to unproven talent. The only problem is the NBA talent evaluators would actually have to do a job. Then again it just might destroy college hoops. This is similar to what the NHL does. Hockey players who are drafted can still play in juniors or college, and their draft rights remain with the team which had drafted them. There are usually a slew of signings after the junior/NCAA seasons are concluded. No reason it couldn't work with the NBA.
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mfk24
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,759
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Post by mfk24 on Apr 6, 2015 23:20:35 GMT -5
Why not just let the NBA draft kids at 18 let them go to prep school and then on to college. then you can make a decision based upon ability and a teams need if you would make the move and sign a contract. If done correctly the NBA brings in more seasoned talent and should be able to limit big time contracts to unproven talent. The only problem is the NBA talent evaluators would actually have to do a job. Then again it just might destroy college hoops. This is similar to what the NHL does. Hockey players who are drafted can still play in juniors or college, and their draft rights remain with the team which had drafted them. There are usually a slew of signings after the junior/NCAA seasons are concluded. No reason it couldn't work with the NBA. Yeah, there's no reason the baseball or hockey model couldn't work with basketball. Football has an even shorter career with an even greater risk of career ending injury, and without the significant opportunities to play outside of the NFL, and they still want players 3 years removed from high school before drafting them.
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,304
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 7, 2015 14:01:18 GMT -5
It's not that playing ball in China is the best job that DSR can get. It's that if he wants to play professional basketball -- for which there is a very small window of time for all people, for most the ages of 22-28 -- his best bet is to play abroad. Now, he will have to do something with his life after that, that is for sure, as even under the what is most likely the best case scenario he will retire before he is 30 from basketball. He will likely have to go back to school at some point, whether in the off-season or upon retirement, to obtain that degree. I could say, there seems to be some sort of racism in the assumption that he won't be mature or capable enough to do that after having earned some money doing what he loves for a few years. At the risk of ticking a bunch of you off, seems to me that there's a soft sort of racism in the assumption that playing in China is the best job DSR can aspire to. Ron Blaylock is on Wall Street, or was. The success stories of those guys who played for "Pops" (as somebody tagged him) are many. I think all have their degree. I don't get the "racism" angle in all of this. My reading of the issues raised above is: 1. The consensus is DSR is not likely to have an NBA future, in which case his pro hoops options would be limited to playing in China (or Europe). 2. Several posters suggested DSR won't return to get his degree years down the road. As for #1 This part of the discussion was limited to what we believe his professional basketball playing prospects are. For one thing, we don't know. Who here projected Jerrelle Benimon playing in the NBA? I didn't. Who knows what his chances are. But based on what we've seen of DSR as a college player and what seemingly all major scouting reports predict, he will not be an NBA Player. If that is how it plays out, his best prospects - as a professional basketball player - may be in China. What is "racist" about that? Nothing I read suggested that is the only job for which he would ever be qualified. It is the job he wants right now and why he is leaving school early. #2? Percentage-wise, not many early hoops departures return to get their degrees. I don't think that has anything to do with race either. I'll go out on a limb and Guess that less than 50% of all students who leave, return later and get their degrees. That includes those who return to school somewhere else. It happens, but it is less likely. I will also guess the longer one waits to return the less likely a degree is earned eventually. Again, I don't see any relationship to race. What am I missing? One more thing... there is nothing chiseled in stone that DSR can't get some other good job somewhere down the road without a degree. Yes, lots of Hoya Hoopsters have gotten degrees and went on to successful careers on Wall St. and elsewhere as were cited earlier. But maybe DSR could get a media job, an on-air commentator or color man. He might not need a degree for that either. Not to limit his career options - that's just one idea that does not necessitate a degree. Lastly, I hope things work out for him. I am disappointed I won't get to see him play his senior year for a promising GU team. He's had such a great career going for him his first three years. OK, I am entitled to be disappointed. Doesn't mean I can't also appreciate it is his choice, his career, and he is making what he believes in the best decision for him. I support his right to make that decision, even if I don't think it is the wisest. But I don't know his circumstances and I don't walk in his shoes. Good luck to DSR. If at some point in time he really wants a degree, he can earn it by returning to GU or to another institution that will accept the credits he has already earned. Wish him the best. He will be missed. If it wasn't clear, my only invocation of race was in reaction to the prior post and an unsuccessful effort to show that it was an absurd argument because it could be equally (and unpersuasively) used in both directions.
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,304
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 7, 2015 14:04:53 GMT -5
Can I ask all you fine people a question? I was talking to my wife over the weekend about DSR (yes, she's cool like that) and she thinks it's complete BS that once you declare for the draft (and sign with an agent), that you can't play any longer at the collegiate level. I tried (and failed) to explain why this rule "made sense." Her beef was - - The NCAA makes a ton off these players but won't allow them to make any money. So why not let him declare for the draft, sign with an agent (who doesn't pay him anything) and test the waters? If those waters are frigid, let him come back to school. I agree with this actually. So why does this rule make sense? How about letting players get drafted (or enter the draft) out of HS, and if they don't like, they go to college for, say, three years before going back in the draft. Nevermind. The NCAA would never go for a crazy scheme like that. But the sports of baseball and basketball are completely different and should be dealt with in completely different manners.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Apr 7, 2015 14:26:39 GMT -5
Except the Juniors Model in hockey would be so throughly corrupted by what exists in AAU today. Plus the growth of Junior Hockey has all eliminated high school hockey as a feeder system and reduced most prep schools to a parking place for the top kids for a year or 2 before moving on college or back to juniors. Heck the ave. age of a college frosh is 20 yrs plus. How any of these kids get through the NCAA clearing house is beyond me especially those playing for a year with USA development.
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DanMcQ
Moderator
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 7, 2015 14:59:50 GMT -5
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SDHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by SDHoya on Apr 7, 2015 15:01:37 GMT -5
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jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by jwp91 on Apr 7, 2015 15:02:40 GMT -5
April Fools?
Ok.....he got me.
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jwp91
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,035
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Post by jwp91 on Apr 7, 2015 15:06:26 GMT -5
What is that song?
Baby, come back!
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