aristides
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Post by aristides on Apr 4, 2015 12:38:52 GMT -5
A fantastic idea. We could insure that the schools with the richest boosters got all of the best players! Is this not the case already? What the heck - let's just cut out the pretense and set up nationally televised auctions where boosters could just buy players for their favorite programs! Well aside from the nationally televised part, I think this happens already, albeit more indirectly. Booster pays school-->school pays coach--->coach gets the best players. The only one cut out of the money is the player. I'm sure that ESPN would be on board. I get the fact that student-athletes, or athlete-students, should be able to have some money in their pockets for pizza, movies, spending money etc. The powers that be are finally - and far later than should have been the case - moving in that direction. But any system that allows "outside interests" to provide money to players is going to necessarily lead to a situation that is far uglier than the one we have now. Wait - Tom Izzo gets all the best players? Who knew?[/quote] Izzo is a great coach, I agree with you there. I don't know enough about Michigan State to understand the context of your sarcasm. I'm not sure it would be uglier than it is now. The only reason there aren't more scandals regarding players receiving "illegal" compensation, schools committing violations, and coaches breaking the rules is because it's in everyone's best interest to keep their heads down and pretend like nothing's happening. There is enough structure to maintain a façade of equitability. But enough information pops out to make it clear that everyone isn't playing by the same rules and meanwhile the student-athletes continue to get the short end of the stick. I think Bilas has me sold on his proposal, but it's never going to happen.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Apr 4, 2015 12:45:45 GMT -5
If you want to let private entities pay players then just take the operation out of colleges entirely and go with a professional minor league system.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Apr 4, 2015 13:01:48 GMT -5
The reason why Greg Monroe was not included is that he never won an NIT or NCAA game before leaving where as Iverson and Green showed in the NCAA's that the team's they were on were on the cusp of something really special. But that is not how it works. Teams do lose in the first round and then go to the Final Four the next season and vice versa. See Duke for example. If Monroe had returned the 2010-11 team with Freeman, Wright, Clark, Hollis, Vaughn, Sims would have been a Top 10 team and a threat to make a deep tournament run if they figured out how to play better defense.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Apr 4, 2015 13:25:22 GMT -5
The reason why Greg Monroe was not included is that he never won an NIT or NCAA game before leaving where as Iverson and Green showed in the NCAA's that the team's they were on were on the cusp of something really special. But that is not how it works. Teams do lose in the first round and then go to the Final Four the next season and vice versa. See Duke for example. If Monroe had returned the 2010-11 team with Freeman, Wright, Clark, Hollis, Vaughn, Sims would have been a Top 10 team and a threat to make a deep tournament run if they figured out how to play better defense. But that logic does not fit the point he's trying to make. How about this team? You don't think this team with no seniors could've used a senior Hollis to be even better and maybe be BET Champion, #1 seed (instead of #2), and NCAA title contender? Never mind that a #2 seed is always a title contender... 2012-13 (25-7) Coach: John Thompson III Captains: Nate Lubick, Markel Starks 2 Greg Whittington '15 Forward* 3 Mikael Hopkins '15 Forward 4 D'Vauntes Smith-Rivera '16 Guard 5 Markel Starks '14 Guard* 12 David Allen '16 Guard 21 Brandon Bolden '16 Forward 22 Otto Porter '15 Forward* 23 Aaron Bowen '14 Guard 25 John Caprio '14 Forward 31 Stephen Domingo '16 Forward 32 Moses Ayegba '14 Center 34 Nate Lubick '14 Forward* 42 Bradley Hayes '16 Center 55 Jabril Trawick '15 Guard*
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 4, 2015 14:08:31 GMT -5
There are a lot of assumptions being made in the absence of solid data. The first is the likelihood of DSR or any other student-athlete ever obtaining the degree that I'd guess almost everybody on this board has, values, and/or wishes for their own kids. Yes, it is a possibility. And yes, our school would likely be among the most accommodating in making that happen. That said, I've heard, on ESPN Radio or someplace, that the statistics of that happening are, in general, abysmally low: less than 5%. That is why it is a story when the athlete does come back and get his degree, and it seems that it is always somebody with a notable pro career (meaning, considerable lifetime earnings) and not a player who has scrambled around on the periphery of the sport. Second, there's been a refrain that student-athletes better look out for No. 1 because of the non-guaranteed nature of athletic scholarships. Yet the touching story of how our school treated Tyler Adams means that at our school at least, the compact between student and institution is as fair as possible. Similarly, there's a drumbeat that overseas earnings are "tax free." International tax law is entirely too complicated to be reduced to a glib simplification like that. I have friends living in Belgium and Great Britain whose incomes are subject to both American and local taxes; additionally, there are a ton of stories in the WSJ and other media about American expatriates are thinking hard about relinquishing their American citizenship due to the complexity and expense of the layers of taxation. I am not saying that DSR (or any of the Hoyas presently playing abroad) are getting killed by taxes, just that its crazy to keep spouting "$100K, tax free!" as if it is some kind of established fact. If you have a strong stomach, read this: www.si.com/longform/2015/1985/villanova/?noroute=truePosted on the SI website within the last 24 hours. Skip over all the Villanova cr@p, to the part where it says "Bill Martin, REACHED AT HIS OFFICE outside Chicago...." because this is the heart of my point and some others' in this thread: there's more to life than chasing a transitory basketball buck for players of uncertain professional prospects. DSR's leaving school makes getting that office a little more difficult. Even if he plays for 10 years (an extraordinarily long pro career) he's got to do something afterward, thats the whole point of the deflated basketball. At the risk of ticking a bunch of you off, seems to me that there's a soft sort of racism in the assumption that playing in China is the best job DSR can aspire to. Ron Blaylock is on Wall Street, or was. The success stories of those guys who played for "Pops" (as somebody tagged him) are many. I think all have their degree. It is DSR's decision, I get it. But what we've all been talking about is whether its a smart one. There may be extraneous factors as suggested frequently, above. But the bedrock proposition at our school--and very few others--has been that basketball can lead to a full and productive LIFE and not just a nice bus trip to play the Kazakhastan Mongols. It's not that playing ball in China is the best job that DSR can get. It's that if he wants to play professional basketball -- for which there is a very small window of time for all people, for most the ages of 22-28 -- his best bet is to play abroad. Now, he will have to do something with his life after that, that is for sure, as even under the what is most likely the best case scenario he will retire before he is 30 from basketball. He will likely have to go back to school at some point, whether in the off-season or upon retirement, to obtain that degree. I could say, there seems to be some sort of racism in the assumption that he won't be mature or capable enough to do that after having earned some money doing what he loves for a few years. Racism? That's the most idiotic thing posted on here in a while, and that's saying something with some of the recent discussions.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Apr 4, 2015 15:22:41 GMT -5
The reason why Greg Monroe was not included is that he never won an NIT or NCAA game before leaving where as Iverson and Green showed in the NCAA's that the team's they were on were on the cusp of something really special. I get where you're coming from but for me that 2010 Ohio loss is the one upset I can't get over. That team crushed the eventual National Champs and defeated the runners up. I think with Monroe back they are top 5 all season. Oh well.
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Apr 4, 2015 17:35:09 GMT -5
I am going to ignore the other points about who left early and why...as a fan I get unhappy about stars departing "early"...but each has his own life and many issues, demands,etc. that none of us are remotely privy to. So, I have no ill will towards a single player who goes pro (somewhere) before graduating. On the question of who actually may have cost the team an NCAA title by leaving early (or whatever actually happened), the answer is undoubtedly MICHAEL GRAHAM. The 1985 team made it to the finals, as everyone on this board knows well, but never fully replaced Graham at the power forward spot. He was the X factor throughout the 1984 Final Four and his presence would have been enough to overcome Nova in the title game. The rest of the folks who left early, were much less certain to affect an NCAA title run, IMHO.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Apr 4, 2015 17:59:49 GMT -5
beenaround - we should have won the title in 1985 Graham or no Graham. Nova shot 22-28 or so in that game. It was a miracle for them. We STILL should have won, and would have won the next 9 in a row if we'd played 10.
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Apr 4, 2015 18:09:58 GMT -5
beenaround - we should have won the title in 1985 Graham or no Graham. Nova shot 22-28 or so in that game. It was a miracle for them. We STILL should have won, and would have won the next 9 in a row if we'd played 10. Yes to every word you said. No dispute. However, I always felt ,that Graham's toughness and power inside might have made a difference...do you not agree?
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Apr 4, 2015 18:20:26 GMT -5
beenaround - we should have won the title in 1985 Graham or no Graham. Nova shot 22-28 or so in that game. It was a miracle for them. We STILL should have won, and would have won the next 9 in a row if we'd played 10. Yes to every word you said. No dispute. However, I always felt ,that Graham's toughness and power inside might have made a difference...do you not agree? " might have made a difference" Well... OK, I'll say yes to that, but... will you agree with "might not have made a difference either"... Nova had a magic night, or a magic PED night, or something. Beenaround... let's not rake this one over too much. It's bringing back my PTSD! OK -- gotta add, we got to the NCAA Final WITHOUT Michael Graham. We beat much better teams than Nova WITHOUT M Graham. Nova was just unbelievable that night. That's why I don't really believe Graham would have been the difference maker.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Apr 4, 2015 21:30:00 GMT -5
I am going to ignore the other points about who left early and why...as a fan I get unhappy about stars departing "early"...but each has his own life and many issues, demands,etc. that none of us are remotely privy to. So, I have no ill will towards a single player who goes pro (somewhere) before graduating. On the question of who actually may have cost the team an NCAA title by leaving early (or whatever actually happened), the answer is undoubtedly MICHAEL GRAHAM. The 1985 team made it to the finals, as everyone on this board knows well, but never fully replaced Graham at the power forward spot. He was the X factor throughout the 1984 Final Four and his presence would have been enough to overcome Nova in the title game. The rest of the folks who left early, were much less certain to affect an NCAA title run, IMHO. I did not include Michael Graham as he did not leave Georgetown early, but was suspended for academic reasons and ended up transferring to another school instead of turning pro.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Apr 4, 2015 22:30:01 GMT -5
I don't believe AI and Vic would have been enough to win a Cship. Jahidi would have been the 3rd option. Am I forgetting someone?
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Apr 5, 2015 6:35:50 GMT -5
I am going to ignore the other points about who left early and why...as a fan I get unhappy about stars departing "early"...but each has his own life and many issues, demands,etc. that none of us are remotely privy to. So, I have no ill will towards a single player who goes pro (somewhere) before graduating. On the question of who actually may have cost the team an NCAA title by leaving early (or whatever actually happened), the answer is undoubtedly MICHAEL GRAHAM. The 1985 team made it to the finals, as everyone on this board knows well, but never fully replaced Graham at the power forward spot. He was the X factor throughout the 1984 Final Four and his presence would have been enough to overcome Nova in the title game. The rest of the folks who left early, were much less certain to affect an NCAA title run, IMHO. The team which Graham really cost a title was the 87 Hoyas. Imagine Reggie and the Miracles plus Graham. Think that team loses to Providence? Guess again.
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Cambridge
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Canes Pugnaces
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 5, 2015 6:53:04 GMT -5
It's not that playing ball in China is the best job that DSR can get. It's that if he wants to play professional basketball -- for which there is a very small window of time for all people, for most the ages of 22-28 -- his best bet is to play abroad. Now, he will have to do something with his life after that, that is for sure, as even under the what is most likely the best case scenario he will retire before he is 30 from basketball. He will likely have to go back to school at some point, whether in the off-season or upon retirement, to obtain that degree. I could say, there seems to be some sort of racism in the assumption that he won't be mature or capable enough to do that after having earned some money doing what he loves for a few years. Racism? That's the most idiotic thing posted on here in a while, and that's saying something with some of the recent discussions. I don't actually think there is any racism, I was responding to an accusation of racism from the prior post. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 5, 2015 9:31:47 GMT -5
Racism? That's the most idiotic thing posted on here in a while, and that's saying something with some of the recent discussions. I don't actually think there is any racism, I was responding to an accusation of racism from the prior post. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Gotcha.
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bowhoya
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by bowhoya on Apr 5, 2015 9:53:29 GMT -5
In my opinion, DSR is not that good of player, even on the college level. He was not that great of a shooter, especially during critical times of the game. He's a volume shooter. He was not that athletic. When was the last time you saw him dunk? He is not that tall for a NBA player. He is making a big, big mistake going early. In the NBA, all of those things will work against him. He's not quick and does not jump that well. The Hoyas will not miss him that much. He can be replaced. Don't worry. The biggest problem is JTIII. I gotta say, this is a really impressive trolling mixtape here--pretty much trolled every argument tree of the DSR decision discussion, a real five-tool trolling. You should go ahead and announce you're leaving Hoyatalk early to declare for ProFootballTalk's comments section. Who are you to talk of me trolling. Don't you dare attack me for my opinion! We all have a right to our opinion. Keep your comments on DSR, not me.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 5, 2015 10:45:17 GMT -5
And look! The "don't attack me! I have a right to an opinion!" post. Awesome. This is like the triple crown of trolling.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Apr 5, 2015 13:38:11 GMT -5
I gotta say, this is a really impressive trolling mixtape here--pretty much trolled every argument tree of the DSR decision discussion, a real five-tool trolling. You should go ahead and announce you're leaving Hoyatalk early to declare for ProFootballTalk's comments section. Who are you to talk of me trolling. Don't you dare attack me for my opinion! We all have a right to our opinion. Keep your comments on DSR, not me. It is my opinion that your opinion has no basis in fact, but instead is typical ludicrous internet blathering; he was only the BE pre-season POY, and a post-season first teamer.But this is only my opinion, so I will not tolerate any criticism of it.
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bowhoya
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Post by bowhoya on Apr 5, 2015 20:26:36 GMT -5
Who are you talking to? Not me. Your opinion has no fact either. It's just an attack on someone who has a different opinion from yours. Being selected as the pre-season POY does not mean DSR will be drafted into the NBA or will become a good NBA player. As you can see, he was not selected as POY at the end of the season, based on his performance. Pre-season selections are just a guess of what might happen.
Again, grow up, stop making personal attacks on other posters. We have a right to our opinion too!
Right, other posters?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2015 21:43:41 GMT -5
Who are you talking to? Not me. Your opinion has no fact either. It's just an attack on someone who has a different opinion from yours. Being selected as the pre-season POY does not mean DSR will be drafted into the NBA or will become a good NBA player. As you can see, he was not selected as POY at the end of the season, based on his performance. Pre-season selections are just a guess of what might happen. Again, grow up, stop making personal attacks on other posters. We have a right to our opinion too! Right, other posters? Don't. Feed. The. Lawyers.
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