Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 3:12:41 GMT -5
Ball has been showing a bit more rotation lately but he probably needs an off season of work to get it right. Form isn’t bad just needs reps and to concentrate on that follow through as others have alluded 2...
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Feb 19, 2015 10:18:02 GMT -5
Shooting's certainly easier to fix than some other aspects like a guy's athletic ceiling, but "a consistent jumper away from making a huge leap" isn't some nontrivial step or Austin Rivers would be an NBA all star and we'd be fondly remembering Jeremiah as one of the great Hoyas of the last decade.
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 10:42:48 GMT -5
Post by Ranch Dressing on Feb 19, 2015 10:42:48 GMT -5
It's funny, but I see Peak as the most ready to contribute Day 1 (quite literally) but with the lowest ceiling among the 4 freshman who receive minutes. Clearly, Ike has amazing potential, but I think we have only begun to scratch the surface with Paul White's massive skill set, and I think Tre Campbell will blossom next year with increased minutes as a 3-point shooter, defender, and leader of our up-tempo game. Moving DSR back to the 2 guard could reap huge benefits as well. If Govan and Akoy are ready for prime time, next year could be a Top 10 year for the Hoyas, with even an assumption of modest year-over-year improvement from Peak, White, Copeland, and Campbell. And Derrickson... and Bradley... and Reggie. True, Derrickson may help, but I think going in we have to consider him down the depth chart a bit with a lot of 3/4s ahead of him. He'll have to be pretty special to take time away from Peak/White/Copeland. Akoy has the benefit of having played a couple seasons at Louisville and I would suspect will be more physically ready and is more of 4/5, and will be forced into duty out of position necessity. Hayes and Cameron have not demonstrated any tangible year-over-year development after a couple years each in the system, so it's hard to project a leap forward for either player. Of course, you do have the classic examples like Henry Sims, Ya Ya Dia, Charles Smith, etc. where an upper classman suddenly makes a huge leap forward unexpectedly without showing much previously. But I'm not sure you bank on that. The weirder examples are the players who regress substantially between sophomore and senior seasons. Anthony Perry and Jesse Sapp are two that come to mind. Players you would have banked on being key contributors at an increasing level, but who fell short for whatever reason.
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DFW HOYA
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 11:30:39 GMT -5
Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 19, 2015 11:30:39 GMT -5
The weirder examples are the players who regress substantially between sophomore and senior seasons. Anthony Perry and Jesse Sapp are two that come to mind. Players you would have banked on being key contributors at an increasing level, but who fell short for whatever reason. Anthony Perry is certainly in the upper tier when it comes to never having met expectations. The other four, in no particular order: Anthony Jones: top 5 recruit as a freshman, shoots 35% from the line as a sophomore. Frank Hollendoner: #1 center in the nation as a high school senior, but got injured every year. Duane Spencer: A big time recruit that GU didn't know quite what to do with. Went to LSU and then averaged 15pts and 7 rpg. Michael Tate: The knee problems were worse than anyone let on.
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seaweed
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 11:30:39 GMT -5
Post by seaweed on Feb 19, 2015 11:30:39 GMT -5
Charles Smith balled from day one.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Feb 19, 2015 11:36:07 GMT -5
Charles Smith balled from day one. My memory is that Charles Smith exploded basically out of nowhere late in this sophomore season during the NCAA tournament. Prior to his sudden emergence, his stats were not noteworthy.
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 11:44:48 GMT -5
Post by Ranch Dressing on Feb 19, 2015 11:44:48 GMT -5
The weirder examples are the players who regress substantially between sophomore and senior seasons. Anthony Perry and Jesse Sapp are two that come to mind. Players you would have banked on being key contributors at an increasing level, but who fell short for whatever reason. Anthony Perry is certainly in the upper tier when it comes to never having met expectations. The other four, in no particular order: Anthony Jones: top 5 recruit as a freshman, shoots 35% from the line as a sophomore. Frank Hollendoner: #1 center in the nation as a high school senior, but got injured every year. Duane Spencer: A big time recruit that GU didn't know quite what to do with. Went to LSU and then averaged 15pts and 7 rpg. Michael Tate: The knee problems were worse than anyone let on. I don't think Jones or Spencer fit my description since they went on to develop, get better, and play very well at UNLV and LSU, respectively. Was looking for examples of guys who started off strong as frosh/soph but actually regressed in a Hoya uniform as a junior/senior?
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 11:56:40 GMT -5
Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 19, 2015 11:56:40 GMT -5
Of course, you do have the classic examples like Henry Sims, Ya Ya Dia, Charles Smith, etc. where an upper classman suddenly makes a huge leap forward unexpectedly without showing much previously. But I'm not sure you bank on that. I think one of the great things about college basketball is that there's always the hope for improvement, and these examples are a good illustration of that. Still, I think Sims' progression is oversold oftentimes as being more sudden than it was. Unlike somebody like Bradley Hayes, Sims actually did play a decent amount of games (even if his minutes were low): Sims (Freshman): 30 games / 9.17 mpg / 40.4 FG% / 90.5 OR Sims (Sophomore): 28 games / 6.79 mpg / 50.0 FG% / 83.8 OR Sims (Junior): 32 games / 14.03 mpg / 57.8 FG% / 99.8 OR Sims (Senior): 33 games / 27.52 mpg / 46.2 FG% / 101.3 OR Clearly, these stats don't tell the whole picture and Sims' improvement was significant, but also incremental from year to year (arguably, the only year he showed no improvement was freshman to sophomore year). It did not suddenly happen his senior year (if anything, the more drastic jump was after his sophomore year). That's why I think when people look to players like Hayes for a senior jump, they are probably a bit more optimistic than is warranted. But, this is college basketball and anything can happen.
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sleepy
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 12:01:07 GMT -5
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Post by sleepy on Feb 19, 2015 12:01:07 GMT -5
Shooting's certainly easier to fix than some other aspects like a guy's athletic ceiling, but "a consistent jumper away from making a huge leap" isn't some nontrivial step or Austin Rivers would be an NBA all star and we'd be fondly remembering Jeremiah as one of the great Hoyas of the last decade. Not all shooting issues are made equal. The Rivers brothers shoot with two hands which is incredibly hard to fix once you get to the age of 13 let alone college. Peak's form is fine he just needs more fluidity and to use his legs more, and it's not as if he can't knock down the occasional 3 as it is. It's really just a matter of putting up shots in the gym during the offseason. A guy like Trawick had far more serious issues on his shot and was still able to make a huge leap with a lot of hard work. So while it is an issue that needs hard work and time to fix, Peak really doesn't have any built in excuse for not improving his jump shot over time as there are no serious mechanical issues he will have to overcome. That isn't to say he will ever become a great shooter like DSR, but with his athleticism and ability to get to the basket just 35% from outside would make a huge difference for him on the college level.
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HoyaChris
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 12:21:51 GMT -5
Post by HoyaChris on Feb 19, 2015 12:21:51 GMT -5
Charles Smith balled from day one. If Charles balled from Day 1 he was doing it in practice only. He averaged 3.0 as a freshman and 6.7 for his entire sophomore season. He was averaging the same 3 points well into his sophomore season. I was at the game in which he went off for the first time - DePaul maybe - late in his sophomore season. The entire Capital Center was stunned.
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 12:47:28 GMT -5
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 19, 2015 12:47:28 GMT -5
I think we have an odd dynamic that has delayed the development of all of the freshmen. With 4 seniors and 4 freshmen in the 9 man rotation, the rookies have not only had to develop their skills for this level(especially on the defensive end), they have also had to fit themselves in, probably at least subconsciously deferring to the upperclassmen to control the game. It can take months to really fit a team together; it looks like we are finally getting closer, everybody understands their roles and can play without looking over their shoulders.
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seaweed
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 13:49:19 GMT -5
Post by seaweed on Feb 19, 2015 13:49:19 GMT -5
Charles Smith balled from day one. If Charles balled from Day 1 he was doing it in practice only. He averaged 3.0 as a freshman and 6.7 for his entire sophomore season. He was averaging the same 3 points well into his sophomore season. I was at the game in which he went off for the first time - DePaul maybe - late in his sophomore season. The entire Capital Center was stunned. Smitty came into a team that had a 4 year starter PG in Michael Jackson who played nearly 1000 minutes in 85-86, so the minutes weren't there for the freshman. When he did play, he shot almost 50% from the field, almost 80% from the line while averaging 3 points, nearly one assist and one rebound per game in about 8 minutes. And he didn't turn the ball over - under 1/game his first two years and never had an assist/TO ratio under 1.0. How does that fit into a narrative about players who fail to develop in a timely manner? His sophomore year, he doubled his minutes and points. By junior year, he was all big east... again, where is the slow development for a last minute recruit who was totally under the radar at All Saints? Unheralded he may have been, above average final results for sure, but to say he didn't show much early in his career is unfair. Maybe he didn't instantly carve a huge place for himself on a team full of guys who had been to 2 straight NCAA finals, but what he did he did well. Here is the original statement re: Smitty: "Of course, you do have the classic examples like Henry Sims, Ya Ya Dia, Charles Smith, etc. where an upper classman suddenly makes a huge leap forward unexpectedly without showing much previously. But I'm not sure you bank on that." To say that he didn't show much previously is unfair - by your own admission he exploded sophomore year. He may have gone higher than expected, but at no time was he underperforming expectations. Look at the numbers yourself: Season GP GS Mins FG FGA FG% FT FTA FT% 3fg 3FGA 3FG% O/Reb/RebAvg PF, Ast BLck St Pts Avg 1985-86 30 0 243 28 59 47.5 34 43 79.1 30 1.0 47 25 2 18 90 3.0 1986-87 33 2 514 81 193 42.0 19 50 38.0 40 62 64.5 23 49 1.5 55 32 4 36 221 6.7 1987-88 30 16 870 173 405 42.7 47 136 34.6 77 100 77.0 34 100 3.3 68 75 0 71 470 15.7 1988-89 33 33 1111 222 446 49.8 36 89 40.5 137 175 78.3 23 118 3.6 63 169 4 58 617 18.7 Totals 126 51 2738 504 1103 45.7 102 380 37.1 288 380 75.8 80 297 2.4 233 301 10 183 1398 11.1
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SirSaxa
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 14:24:25 GMT -5
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 19, 2015 14:24:25 GMT -5
As a freshman, Smitty did play behind Seniors Michael Jackson and Horace Broadnax. But after they graduated, the following season he played behind two freshmen guards. Here is a link and some excerpts from DFW's write-up on Charles in the Top 100 Hoyas section: ExcerptThe recruitment of Charles Smith is a part of Georgetown basketball legend: the 6-0 guard was told by John Thompson that he was recruited strictly for defense and he shouldn't expect to start during his career.
For the first 60 games of his career at Georgetown, the script was true to form. Smith averaged eight minutes and three points during the 1985-86 season, with a season high of 11 against Seton Hall. In 1986-87, he started two non-conference games, scored a total of seven points, and was sent back to the bench for what appeared to be the duration of the Hoyas' impressive 25-4 regular season. Smith averaged five points a game, with some promising games in relief but not enough to challenge starters Dwayne Bryant and Mark Tillmon, a pair of high school All-Americans who would likely hold the starting rotation throughout Smith's remaining years at Georgetown.
One game changed everything.
On March 15, 1987, the top seeded and #4-ranked Georgetown Hoyas met Ohio State in the second round of the NCAA Southeast Regional. Ohio State was a formidable opponent, led by all-American Dennis Hopson and coming off a 91-77 throttling of Kentucky in the opening round. And a repeat performance looked to be in store, as the Buckeyes were running all over the favored Hoyas in this one. Georgetown trailed by eleven by 11 at the half, and the deficit ballooned to 15 within the first minute of the second half. When Bryant picked up his fourth foul early in the half, Thompson brought Charles Smith in as a last resort. What followed was a stunner.
The five point a game player simply took off. He scored from outside, from inside. A player who most of the Buckeyes had never heard of and whom coach Gary Williams didn't even expect to see play rallied the Hoyas from a 15 point deficit with a amazing 22 point effort. The rest of Smitty's incredible story can be found here: www.hoyabasketball.com/features/top100/c_smith.htm
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Feb 19, 2015 15:21:45 GMT -5
Not sure what Seaweed is trying to argue because it is taken as fact now that Smitty was one of the all-time great surprise stories in the history of Georgetown basketball, if not the Big East. He basically went from a guy who was barely in the rotation to an All-Big East and All-American performer overnight in the 1987 NCAA tournament.
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EtomicB
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 15:37:52 GMT -5
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 19, 2015 15:37:52 GMT -5
Not sure what Seaweed is trying to argue because it is taken as fact now that Smitty was one of the all-time great surprise stories in the history of Georgetown basketball, if not the Big East. He basically went from a guy who was barely in the rotation to an All-Big East and All-American performer overnight in the 1987 NCAA tournament. Not to speak for Seaweed but I think it was your use of the term upperclassmen.. Smitty broke out at the end of his sophomore year and was expected to pick up where he left off his Jr year which he did.. His story us much different than Henry's or Ya Ya's
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LJ
Feb 19, 2015 18:17:19 GMT -5
Post by Ranch Dressing on Feb 19, 2015 18:17:19 GMT -5
Upperclassman could have been confusing. Sorry - should have said soph/junior/senior make an expected leap forward.
However, your excuse for the weed doesn't make sense because his retort was that Smitty balled from Day one, which of course we all know he did not until March/April 1987 at the end of his soph season.
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seaweed
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LJ
Feb 20, 2015 10:08:12 GMT -5
Post by seaweed on Feb 20, 2015 10:08:12 GMT -5
I challenged the contention that he hadn't shown much previously. Based on who we thought he was, he exceeded expectations from day one. No he wasn't a star, but we had zero expectations from him - lower even than his high school teammate Bobby Winston - and he did just fine during his first year, even better his second. Yes, Pops started the two freshmen HS All-Americans in front of him most of sophomore year, but the fact that he had any starts at all that year is a clear indication that he was way ahead of expectations.
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JB5
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LJ
Feb 20, 2015 10:37:20 GMT -5
Post by JB5 on Feb 20, 2015 10:37:20 GMT -5
Smitty was a good defender from day 1. Although he didn't see that many minutes as a freshman, he played above expectations. Remember that with Wingate, Jackson and Broadnax, there was no need for more backcourt scoring. He was basically the next Gene Smith, a guy who never scored much but helped the team win with D. After that season, the NCAA implemented the 3 point shot which helped bump up scoring for guards in general. Smitty improved his outside shot each year, so that by his senior season, he was a threat from anywhere.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Feb 20, 2015 10:59:51 GMT -5
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seaweed
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LJ
Feb 20, 2015 11:31:56 GMT -5
Post by seaweed on Feb 20, 2015 11:31:56 GMT -5
You are not far off, but I was a Hoya fan well before I landed on 1st New South, just down the hall from Jaren, Jonathan, Bobby and the unheralded Smitty.
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