calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 11, 2014 12:47:42 GMT -5
I agree with your thought that the players may have been a little too jacked up. This was not their first "big game" but it was their first big game at home and with a relatively large crowd. Hard to compare the earlier games against Florida, Wisconsin and Butler before a small crowd with the atmosphere last night. I think that JT III has been doing an good job this year, particularly with a lineup that includes so many young players. Last night was a big game and understandably the temptation is to shrink the bench. Yet, without shrinking the bench they went toe-to-toe with Wisconsin and Kansas and actually played better than last night in both games. My quibble is not just about Bowen/Trawick usage, but I also would have used Tre more to give the guards a break. Throughout the game many of the shots from DSR and others were short or off the front-rim or to the side of the rim. Poor form and short shots are often a sign of tired legs. As well as Smith was playing and Hopkins too on defense, I was surprised that the Hoyas did not extend the defense more on the perimeter to at least move the Kansas players out of their comfort zone. Most of the problem I saw with the wide-open 3s came from Peak missing a rotation and a couple of times on White and Copeland. Yet, DSR was not getting out there either as the Jayhawks used alot of high screens to create open shots for their shooters. Is it the design of the defense or were the players just tired? I won't pretend to know how anyone felt. I just know that it is a recurring problem. We had one game in 12 days before last night. If tired legs were a problem already, it is going to be a very long season. Good question. Perhaps I should have just said tired. Was not suggesting that it was a conditioning issue, although it might have been for Smith. He ran harder and was more active last night than I have seen in years, including his time at UCLA. However, I do believe that the point guard in particular can suffer what I called tired legs from the constant "work" in bringing the ball up court and that leads to mistakes--both mental and in form.
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mfk24
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Post by mfk24 on Dec 11, 2014 12:56:05 GMT -5
I agree with the "too jacked" theory for the opening 10 minutes of this game contributing to sloppy turnovers, poor shooting, etc. The team looked young for those first couple of TV timeouts. They were excited to play a Top 10 team at home and a little tight/excited. And again they looked young down the stretch. Not a total surprise, Smith is not exactly a grizzled veteran in those situations despite being a senior. The turnovers, missed 1 and 1s and lack of creating an open look at the end, killed us. All thing I guess we need to live with for now, but that should be improving as these situations replay themselves in the future. My biggest concern right now is DSR. He is still adapting to this lead guard role, but I would like to see III help him out and put Campbell in not to sub out DSR, but to allow him to play off the ball for a few possessions in a row. I really think he is wearing too many hats right now for the team. He was the leading rebounder and assist man last night, and he is also expected to be the leading scorer. He is trying to do it all, and he forced things last night. Other than that, turnovers in the front court continue to happen. Smith is a weapon, but he turns it over too. I thought we may have been too deliberate in getting the ball in the post last night (I could never imagine writing that before). I would have liked to see a little more ball movement, perhaps find an open shot. I would have definitely liked to see more Bowen/Campbell, Trawick did not have it last night. But we shot so poorly from the perimeter. We got a few lucky banked in 3s but DSR was 0-fer from deep and Jabril was too hesitant to take that shot. I thought White and Copeland took the jumper when they were open and it was within the flow of the offense.
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FrazierFanatic
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 11, 2014 13:05:37 GMT -5
We had one game in 12 days before last night. If tired legs were a problem already, it is going to be a very long season. Good question. Perhaps I should have just said tired. Was not suggesting that it was a conditioning issue, although it might have been for Smith. He ran harder and was more active last night than I have seen in years, including his time at UCLA. However, I do believe that the point guard in particular can suffer what I called tired legs from the constant "work" in bringing the ball up court and that leads to mistakes--both mental and in form. Fair point. Although it may just have been that DSR was a little tight from the burden he felt in such a big game. If so, hopefully he adapts to it as the season goes on.
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FrazierFanatic
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 11, 2014 13:12:54 GMT -5
I have to ask - why do we just assume that the freshmen will stop making mistakes with a little more experience. I mean I know they will improve their games, will get stronger and more confident, etc. - but many of the inexcusable turnovers, defensive lapses and other mistakes come from our seniors and juniors, who have plenty of experience I certainly have great expectations for this group of freshmen, and I believe they can carry us to some pretty high levels over the next few years - but let's not count on it quite yet. Well with that attitude which just plays right into TJI from Dallas, Texas' negative narrative agenda then why even watch. Just give up on the season now. Bowen and Hopkins are just limited. I think it's more a coordination issue with Hopkins. Kind of the big kid who is uncoordinated and will never be as coordinated as a smaller guy. But you know what he's improved alot and worked really hard with what he has and defensively and with rebounds he brings alot to the table. (He had two beautiful backdoor passes to the freshman among his 4 assists and nobody notices.) Same with Bowen. He's worked very hard but sometimes his basketball IQ isn't very high. As far as Trawick. Nobody really had a big problem with him till this year. All the hate was focussed on Lubick and Hopkins to a lesser extent. And now all of a sudden it seems like Trawick is the new punching bag like Lubick was last year. Why do we even have to do that. It's unpleasant and unnecessary. Even yesterday, he still had 6 boards, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block yet people didn't notice. He's not a good outside shooter. But that's one of the hardest things to change after you've shot with bad form for most of your life. Not to mention, Trawick has a bunch of hand problems and bandages which can't help his shot. But he's an active defensive stopper who is active on the boards. Professor - did not mean to seem so negative, nor to even give a hint of giving up on the season. The TJI comparison cut me to the quick. As I also said, I believe these young men can elevate the program over the next couple of years. But it is always disappointing when your upperclassmen are the ones making the types of mistakes that you expect more from freshmen! Believe me, I recognize the limitations that Hop, 'Bril and AB have, and fully appreciate those things that they contribute when they are playing to their strengths. I guess I am just frustrated that we had every chance to get a statement win last night, against a very good Kansas team,and frittered it away.
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Post by BubbleVisionBiff on Dec 11, 2014 13:18:38 GMT -5
Anybody else see DJ Owens last night? Told him we could have used his shooting.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Dec 11, 2014 13:21:38 GMT -5
KU Game Thread: Sometimes it's good to read other team's threads to gain perspective. Ironically they shower praise on Georgetown players and are highly critical of KU players and their team. (Such things as, why can't our freshmen play like LJ Peak, How Wayne Selden gets blocked by the rim 2-3 times every game. Sound familiar, etc). kansas.247sports.com/Board/59455/Contents/Kansas-v-Georgetown-Game-Thread-33752600It may sound familiar, but the difference is that Kansas wins B12 championships every year and pretty much stays in the top 10 all year long. This is a "down year" by Kansas standards. I stand by my comments that this just isnt a very good Kansas team. They shot 30 something percent from the floor and turned the ball over as much as we did. The difference is that they made 10 wide open 3s. They will certainly stay ranked and will win games because of the way they are coached, but Im still bitter about losing that game. We should have won. That said, even if we won, it's not like we wouldnt have to play the rest of the season So, time to move on. I just really wanted a marquee win in that home and home series.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 13:22:05 GMT -5
When the game gets tight we take a lot of terrible shots. They lack poise in those key moments. We take way too many bad shots in those possessions and most of the time early in the clock, It’s a waste of a possession and completely bails out the defense. If you only make them work for a couple seconds and then throw up some contested BS you deserve to loose.That’s not how you play the game, stick to what got u there. Play for a good shot not a Sportcenter highlight. You’re not going to win a lot of close games playing like that and we will be in a lot of close games come conference play Very true. Some of that is the freshmen, I think. Hopefully they learn from this. Of course, they might avoid a lot of those close games if they clean up the stupid turnovers. The sad part is that those bad looks were DSR's 3 with 1 minute to go and a hand in his face and two missed front ends of 1 and 1s by Josh Smith and Hopkins. That is some poor decision making by upperclassmen. The freshman hit key shots, namely Peak and White's 3 pointers that tied the game up on two occasions late in the game....
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Post by RockawayHoya on Dec 11, 2014 13:35:50 GMT -5
A gritty effort by our guys last night, but they are going to continue to be held back until a few things change:
1) Knowing when and who to help on D. Chalk a lot of this up to inexperience of the freshman, who I think everyone can agree have played up to expectations so far. But there are still too many instances where the guys they are guarding get wide-open perimeter shots because they are either helping on someone who shouldn't require help and/or slow to rotate and recover to the shooter. On a side note, if I'm Reggie Cameron, I'm watching video of what Brannen Greene did last night and try and figure out how I become that, because THAT is what we needed from him when he got here. Greene contributed very little besides spotting up and being automatic from deep, but he was the difference in the game.
2) Josh had a great game last night and really took advantage of Alexander on both ends of the floor, but he's still got to cut down on the turnovers. Two ways to do that are not bringing the ball down for a dribble in traffic and making slightly quicker decisions when the double team comes (either finish the post move or kick back out to the shooter). We did a much better job of re-posting him when his position wasn't favorable on the initial entry, but still way too many turnovers.
3) DSR is forcing. It looks great when everything is going down like against Wisconsin. But the quality of his shots (especially last night) have been poor as of late. Too many shots are coming from outside of the flow of the offense, off balance, and too early in the shot clock. He contributed a lot in other aspects of the game (rebounding especially), but as numerous posters in this thread have already pointed out the obvious, we are not beating an Top 10 caliber team if he shoots 3/15. Unlike last year, we have other capable offensive options. The need to force and carry the burden isn't as great, and he needs to recognize that.
4) I think Jabril's reluctance to shoot from outside is hurting his dribble-drive game. Defenders are becoming increasingly wary that he will not shoot from the perimeter, which allows them to back off and prepare themselves better for the drive that seems to be always coming once his mind is set. He has to at least keep the defense honest with an occasional jumper, otherwise it's just going to continue to get more difficult for him to get to the rim as defenses lean towards crowding the paint when he has the ball. This doesn't mean I want him haphazardly jacking up shots, but he can't be passing up wide-open 3's like he did last night.
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Post by BubbleVisionBiff on Dec 11, 2014 13:42:03 GMT -5
And jabril's jumper and form had been significantly improved. Not sure why he is hesitating.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 13:51:35 GMT -5
Not having a seasoned point guard might just be our undoing this year. Markel Starks on this team would be deadly. Seems like we've been just one year off for one position a few times in the JT3 era and it's really cost us opportunities to be elite....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 14:09:02 GMT -5
A gritty effort by our guys last night, but they are going to continue to be held back until a few things change: 1) Knowing when and who to help on D. Chalk a lot of this up to inexperience of the freshman, who I think everyone can agree have played up to expectations so far. But there are still too many instances where the guys they are guarding get wide-open perimeter shots because they are either helping on someone who shouldn't require help and/or slow to rotate and recover to the shooter. On a side note, if I'm Reggie Cameron, I'm watching video of what Brannen Greene did last night and try and figure out how I become that, because THAT is what we needed from him when he got here. Greene contributed very little besides spotting up and being automatic from deep, but he was the difference in the game. 2) Josh had a great game last night and really took advantage of Alexander on both ends of the floor, but he's still got to cut down on the turnovers. Two ways to do that are not bringing the ball down for a dribble in traffic and making slightly quicker decisions when the double team comes (either finish the post move or kick back out to the shooter). We did a much better job of re-posting him when his position wasn't favorable on the initial entry, but still way too many turnovers. 3) DSR is forcing. It looks great when everything is going down like against Wisconsin. But the quality of his shots (especially last night) have been poor as of late. Too many shots are coming from outside of the flow of the offense, off balance, and too early in the shot clock. He contributed a lot in other aspects of the game (rebounding especially), but as numerous posters in this thread have already pointed out the obvious, we are not beating an Top 10 caliber team if he shoots 3/15. Unlike last year, we have other capable offensive options. The need to force and carry the burden isn't as great, and he needs to recognize that. 4) I think Jabril's reluctance to shoot from outside is hurting his dribble-drive game. Defenders are becoming increasingly wary that he will not shoot from the perimeter, which allows them to back off and prepare themselves better for the drive that seems to be always coming once his mind is set. He has to at least keep the defense honest with an occasional jumper, otherwise it's just going to continue to get more difficult for him to get to the rim as defenses lean towards crowding the paint when he has the ball. This doesn't mean I want him haphazardly jacking up shots, but he can't be passing up wide-open 3's like he did last night. Agree with a lot of the points here. Point about rotations is spot-on. I suspect this will get worked out. I would love to see Cameron have games like last night but two questions-- do we run an offense where a guy can just camp-out and wait for an open 3? And is Cameron's defense at the level where it's worth what we get from offense? Smith played great. As great as he was offensively, I saw a lot of hustle on D and that big block towards the end to start the fast break was fun to watch. I think he blocked it with his forearm or elbow. All and all I thought he he was a net zero on defense (as in pros equalled cons) and I'll more than take that when you consider what he brings offensively. DSR is forcing it for sure. Need to run him some plays off the ball using downscreens and drive and dishes. Gotta get Tre some extra minutes running the pg as well as much as it may hurt at times. Wished DSR had found some ways to get to the FT line more while he was mirred in his shooting slump too. When Greene picked up his fourth foul why not set picks using the guy Greene was guarding to force the switch and let DSR attack the guy who is worried about fouling out? Worst case they don't switch and now you've gotten DSR a cleaner look than the one he took with a minute left with a defender's hand in his face. If Jabril wants to be able to drive to the rim he needs to find at least ONE perimeter spot he feels comfortable from and take a few shots from there per game. Otherwise his entire skillset is just not going to work...
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Dec 11, 2014 14:28:44 GMT -5
I think Jabril might just get a little too jacked up for big games and he presses. A couple of the times he was handling the ball that seemed to be the case. We are going to have plenty of chances in conference play with St. Johns, Butler, Nova, Creighton, Xavier and to a lesser extent Seton Hall & Provy to get W's. The key will be consistency because we can lose to anyone on any given night. Win the next two and then beat a good offensive team in IU and I still think we are creeping towards the top 25 entering Big East play. This team needs to be a second weekend NCAA team this year with a chance to upset anyone with Josh's ability to foul out an entire front line. That Lucas kid fouled out playing under 14 minutes and he was clearly frustrated.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Dec 11, 2014 15:11:11 GMT -5
I know all the cliches apply "being close only counts in horseshoes" , " a close loss still counts as a loss", etc. However, this team is progressing in the direction we would want them to. Smith played in my mind the best overall game as a Hoya. If III can get that effort from him for the rest of the season, I think he would be very satisfied..DSR had a very tough night. The quicker Kansas guards made it tough for him to get to the basket on the drive and the bigs were quick to get out on him after a pick to prevent his 3pt shot. That may be a problem going forward as they face quicker and bigger guards in conference play. The HOYAS run a play a lot where the PG and the center invert there positions and center from the top of the free throw line passes to the PG underneath the basket. The success of that play through the years with Wall, Wright, Starks and now DSR has been minimal because of the size of the Hoya PG. Often times they are caught trying to finish over a 6'8-10" big and gets the shot blocked. Until the Hoyas are able to put someone with the size and ability of Peak at PG, I suggest canning that play. Another work in progress for the team is the integration of the old center post up with the PRINCETON concepts, Georgetown offense. Rafferty mentioned it last night , that the guard throwing the ball in to Smith needed to wait a few seconds after he threw it back out to allow him to repost., which usually allowed him to get better positioning. The guards however are also looking for cutters on the move so they end up passing it to the other side of the floor. There is going to have to be a happy medium found where this can be done without slowing down the offense. I love the toughness Jabril brings to the game and his it he has to be able to hit the open jumper enough to keep the defense honest because it is usually his man that sags down to double Smith in the post. Overall though a step in the right direction last night.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Dec 11, 2014 15:24:17 GMT -5
My take:
Greene goes for 3-5 from 3 and DSR goes for 2-5 from 3 and we win easily.
Everybody else, with the exception perhaps of Trawick, did exactly what he needed to do to win the game.
We rebounded well enough. Turnover differential was neutral. We played defense well enough. We had enough energy. We got key contributions from maturing freshman. Hopkins played GREAT on defense and did not cause too much harm on offense. Josh had a very solid game on both ends and stayed out of foul trouble. We would have taken all of that if offered before the game.
The only difference, shockingly, was DSR had his worst shooting performance ever and Greene torched us. More normal shooting from both guys and we coast. Sucks, because you count of DSR in these games. That was sad to watch him struggle so much.
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beenaround
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Post by beenaround on Dec 11, 2014 15:54:23 GMT -5
Ranch, I agree. However, I will say that I really think that DSR's poor shooting was very much the result of very good Kansas D on him. He could not get past their little pg for drives to the hole, and he only had a couple really open shots the entire game. Now...he is still good enough to have made a few more of those shots, especially the final baseline three to attempt to tie in the final minute. But the effort taken to bring up the ball and cover quicker, more athletic guys, may take its toll on his scoring, this year. I would like to see him get off the ball a bit more.
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kghoya
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Post by kghoya on Dec 11, 2014 16:12:58 GMT -5
My take: Greene goes for 3-5 from 3 and DSR goes for 2-5 from 3 and we win easily. Everybody else, with the exception perhaps of Trawick, did exactly what he needed to do to win the game. We rebounded well enough. Turnover differential was neutral. We played defense well enough. We had enough energy. We got key contributions from maturing freshman. Hopkins played GREAT on defense and did not cause too much harm on offense. Josh had a very solid game on both ends and stayed out of foul trouble. We would have taken all of that if offered before the game. The only difference, shockingly, was DSR had his worst shooting performance ever and Greene torched us. More normal shooting from both guys and we coast. Sucks, because you count of DSR in these games. That was sad to watch him struggle so much. Dsr missed mostly difficult shots while greene had wide open looks. These things didn't happen in a vacuum. The reasons, more than just the mumbers, are concerning.
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Post by augustusfinknottle on Dec 11, 2014 16:37:53 GMT -5
And what are you suggesting those reasons are?
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 11, 2014 16:43:06 GMT -5
My take: Greene goes for 3-5 from 3 and DSR goes for 2-5 from 3 and we win easily. Everybody else, with the exception perhaps of Trawick, did exactly what he needed to do to win the game. We rebounded well enough. Turnover differential was neutral. We played defense well enough. We had enough energy. We got key contributions from maturing freshman. Hopkins played GREAT on defense and did not cause too much harm on offense. Josh had a very solid game on both ends and stayed out of foul trouble. We would have taken all of that if offered before the game. The only difference, shockingly, was DSR had his worst shooting performance ever and Greene torched us. More normal shooting from both guys and we coast. Sucks, because you count of DSR in these games. That was sad to watch him struggle so much. Dsr missed mostly difficult shots while greene had wide open looks. These things didn't happen in a vacuum. The reasons, more than just the mumbers, are concerning. Plus this is not the first game when DSR has been off on his shooting. He started that way last year against Oregon and in this year's opening game too. He was not accurate in the Florida game until the last 5 minutes (which is why I believe he has to shoot his way out of these slumps) and he was not that great against Butler. He is a streaky shooter from distance and has always been better inside the arc. Last night was unusual only in that he was off from everywhere except the free throw line. I think that is revealing in that he has time at the FT line and gets set and is a very accurate shooter.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Dec 11, 2014 17:02:13 GMT -5
And what are you suggesting those reasons are? They reasons are in the posts right above yours. Start with 1) and 3) in Rockawayhoya's post.
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Post by michaelgrahmstylie on Dec 11, 2014 17:03:29 GMT -5
We need to have as our main cast: Josh, White, Copeland, Smith-Rivera, and Tre Campbell. Take Devontes off the ball. We could also try having White be the "point forward" once the ball is past half court. I think that might actually work best. That's exactly what I said last week. I guess the mistake I made was referencing Kyle Anderson. I know all our emotions are still frayed over that one, but I can see White in a similar role.
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