dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Aug 4, 2014 20:09:17 GMT -5
I have actual factual evidence on my side. This team played better defense after Greg went out. You have what? The Greg Whittington obsession on this board is weird. Otto was a vastly superior player on both sides of the ball, but people love them some perimeter potential, don't they? Causation is not correlation and ability doesn't always always equal production. That's why the eye-test exists. People aren't just declaring Whitt as one of the best defenders in GU history after 1.5 seasons for no reason. You don't have to agree but that doesn't make it any less true. Greg was a more versatile and athletic defender with better timing and instincts. To my crooked eye, Greg was a great one on one defender, Otto, was a great help defender. Greg, in my opinion, was at the time a better defender. Would've liked to have seen those two together 1 additional year.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 4, 2014 20:22:21 GMT -5
JT. Take it up with him.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 4, 2014 20:27:14 GMT -5
Who was declaring Whittington "one of the best defenders in GU history" exactly? And I'm not talking about Pop's pre-career hyperbole. John Duren David Wingate Gene Smith All say hello Are we in third grade? When does "one of the best" get confused for being "the best" or " better than anyone else?" Again take it up with JT. He made the comment. Then again he thought Moses was one of the best shot blockers he had sheen since the first Patrick Ewing so.....take it with a grain of salt.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 4, 2014 20:32:23 GMT -5
Causation is not correlation and ability doesn't always always equal production. That's why the eye-test exists. People aren't just declaring Whitt as one of the best defenders in GU history after 1.5 seasons for no reason. You don't have to agree but that doesn't make it any less true. Greg was a more versatile and athletic defender with better timing and instincts. To my crooked eye, Greg was a great one on one defender, Otto, was a great help defender. Greg, in my opinion, was at the time a better defender. Would've liked to have seen those two together 1 additional year. Amen. I just wanted those two in a starting lineup for one entire season before one or both departed for the pros. And I was on record that entire season claiming that as we'll as the team was playing post-Greg, the team was still going to need him if it had any intention of doing anything great in the post season. Oh my are we ever off topic. Enough Greg talk.,
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Aug 4, 2014 20:53:37 GMT -5
Who was declaring Whittington "one of the best defenders in GU history" exactly? And I'm not talking about Pop's pre-career hyperbole. John Duren David Wingate Gene Smith All say hello Are we in third grade? When does "one of the best" get confused for being "the best" or " better than anyone else?" Again take it up with JT. He made the comment. Then again he thought Moses was one of the best shot blockers he had sheen since the first Patrick Ewing so.....take it with a grain of salt. All unrealized potential. Sad. And there was no confusion on my part. Nowhere near one of the best, based on total body of work AT Georgetown.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 4, 2014 21:12:28 GMT -5
Are we in third grade? When does "one of the best" get confused for being "the best" or " better than anyone else?" Again take it up with JT. He made the comment. Then again he thought Moses was one of the best shot blockers he had sheen since the first Patrick Ewing so.....take it with a grain of salt. All unrealized potential. Sad. And there was no confusion on my part. Nowhere near one of the best, based on total body of work AT Georgetown. Nobody was saying his body of work was obviously but his defensive talent and production was while he played.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Aug 4, 2014 21:40:48 GMT -5
Pretty hard to say someone was one of the best at anything (even "perhaps" one of the best) based on something as incomplete as GW's GU career. You have to be pretty Iverson-esque to be able to do that.
Pointing to JT's assertion about GW's ability entering GU is completely irrelevant to that discussion. Hell, based on that measure, Anthony Perry is one of the greatest Hoyas of all time.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 4, 2014 21:56:28 GMT -5
Man people really know how to hold a grudge around here
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 4, 2014 23:08:47 GMT -5
...he isn't the first big time prospect Greg W was a three-star prospect out of high school, with GU getting him over Clemson, Depaul and Maryland. Nowhere near a big-time prospect...
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Post by professorhoya on Aug 4, 2014 23:29:26 GMT -5
I think part of the reason everybody focused on Whittington's defense was because he was 6'8 and he often played a guard role, which made him a lot bigger than most of the people who would typically play that position. In contrast, Porter stuck out less at his position because he was a normal size for his position and he was not flashy. I still think Whittington was a good defender (and he surely would have helped last season), but I agree that Otto Porter was better, and you would have to be insane to think Whittington was even close to Porter on offense, so I won't even go there. A lot of times when you have okay or mediocre to bad or inconsistent offense, the best defender moniker gets thrown around. (Jeremiah for example at one extreme or Derrick McKey) Whits offense was nowhere near Porter during their freshman year and so Whit became the guy with awesome defense. And somehow that became interpreted as Whit's defense was much better than Ottos which simply isn't the case.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Aug 5, 2014 0:37:49 GMT -5
Why is Rock wrong? Because the team played better without Greg? Okay. But is that enough? Perhaps Greg's suspension in addition to the horrible start to the BE season was just the wake up call the team needed to pul together and come correct. I mean that is possible right? Heck there is the Ewing theory out there that a team could play better even after losing it's supposed best player, so why can't a similar result happen when losing a guy who is at best the second or third best guy on the squad? Anyway no authority less than Big John himself claimed Whittington was one of the best defenders to ever enter the Gtown program. That has to be worth something, Oone guy on the ESPN websites went out of his way to provide a breakdown on just how extraordinary Whitt's defense was in that win at Louisville during his first season. Otto's defense was great but Otto could not defend point guards. Whittington could. And while Otto was a clearly better on the offensive end and on the boards, to me Whittington had more upside. He was quicker off the bounce, more athletic and explosive, had a ridiculously quick second jump, etc. But to be a better player he would have to put it altogether, most importantly mentally. He didn't and he isn't the first big time prospect Who failed to live up to his athletic gifts. That happens more times than one can count. Otto was easily the better player because he had his act together, not because he was a more impressive physical specimen or that much more skilled. Who the Edited cares if Otto could defend quick point guards? Let me make it easy. With Whit and Otto: very good defense. With just Otto: even better defense. Without Whit or Otto: astic defense. It's not that hard, people. Whit was a good defender, perhaps even a very good defender, but he did foul too much. Otto was better. It's not my fault people are obsessed with one on one defense when team defense is vastly more important in you know, keeping people from scoring. We can go in circles all day on this, but the reality is this: when Whit was suspended a very good defensive team GOT BETTER. And when Otto left, the team absolutely fell apart.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 5, 2014 6:27:08 GMT -5
I think part of the reason everybody focused on Whittington's defense was because he was 6'8 and he often played a guard role, which made him a lot bigger than most of the people who would typically play that position. In contrast, Porter stuck out less at his position because he was a normal size for his position and he was not flashy. I still think Whittington was a good defender (and he surely would have helped last season), but I agree that Otto Porter was better, and you would have to be insane to think Whittington was even close to Porter on offense, so I won't even go there. A lot of times when you have okay or mediocre to bad or inconsistent offense, the best defender moniker gets thrown around. (Jeremiah for example at one extreme or Derrick McKey) Whits offense was nowhere near Porter during their freshman year and so Whit became the guy with awesome defense. And somehow that became interpreted as Whit's defense was much better than Ottos which simply isn't the case. Except for Whitt won us more games with his offense than Otto did in their first year
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Aug 5, 2014 6:29:24 GMT -5
Why is Rock wrong? Because the team played better without Greg? Okay. But is that enough? Perhaps Greg's suspension in addition to the horrible start to the BE season was just the wake up call the team needed to pul together and come correct. I mean that is possible right? Heck there is the Ewing theory out there that a team could play better even after losing it's supposed best player, so why can't a similar result happen when losing a guy who is at best the second or third best guy on the squad? Anyway no authority less than Big John himself claimed Whittington was one of the best defenders to ever enter the Gtown program. That has to be worth something, Oone guy on the ESPN websites went out of his way to provide a breakdown on just how extraordinary Whitt's defense was in that win at Louisville during his first season. Otto's defense was great but Otto could not defend point guards. Whittington could. And while Otto was a clearly better on the offensive end and on the boards, to me Whittington had more upside. He was quicker off the bounce, more athletic and explosive, had a ridiculously quick second jump, etc. But to be a better player he would have to put it altogether, most importantly mentally. He didn't and he isn't the first big time prospect Who failed to live up to his athletic gifts. That happens more times than one can count. Otto was easily the better player because he had his act together, not because he was a more impressive physical specimen or that much more skilled. Who the Edited cares if Otto could defend quick point guards? Let me make it easy. With Whit and Otto: very good defense. With just Otto: even better defense. Without Whit or Otto: Editedastic defense. It's not that hard, people. Whit was a good defender, perhaps even a very good defender, but he did foul too much. Otto was better. It's not my fault people are obsessed with one on one defense when team defense is vastly more important in you know, keeping people from scoring. We can go in circles all day on this, but the reality is this: when Whit was suspended a very good defensive team GOT BETTER. And when Otto left, the team absolutely fell apart. Yeah who cares if a guy can guard 4 positions with ease?
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 5, 2014 8:05:35 GMT -5
Pointing to JT's assertion about GW's ability entering GU is completely irrelevant to that discussion. Hell, based on that measure, Anthony Perry is one of the greatest Hoyas of all time. Perry was among the highest rated recruits Georgetown ever signed, but after the injury Esherick quickly preferred Kevin Braswell in the lead role. I do give Perry credit for staying with the program when some in New Jersey probably suggested he transfer closer to home. On the balance of high school reputation over collegiate results, the top five would be: 1. Anthony Jones 2. Anthony Perry 3. Michael Tate 4. Jerry Nichols 5. Duane Spencer Honorable mention: Matt Causey
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 5, 2014 8:20:56 GMT -5
Pointing to JT's assertion about GW's ability entering GU is completely irrelevant to that discussion. Hell, based on that measure, Anthony Perry is one of the greatest Hoyas of all time. Perry was among the highest rated recruits Georgetown ever signed, but after the injury Esherick quickly preferred Kevin Braswell in the lead role. I do give Perry credit for staying with the program when some in New Jersey probably suggested he transfer closer to home. On the balance of high school reputation over collegiate results, the top five would be: 1. Anthony Jones 2. Anthony Perry 3. Michael Tate 4. Jerry Nichols 5. Duane Spencer Honorable mention: Matt Causey Anthony Tucker? S. Domingo?
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 5, 2014 8:29:16 GMT -5
Anthony Jones was a better Hoya than he gets credit for. The shoulder injury in his sophomore year set him back but he produced infinitely more for the Hoyas than anyone else on that list. He also went on to play fairly well at Vegas and made the league.
Where are Grady Mateen and Milton Bell, two epic flops?
Tucker has no business on that list as he was a solid player at Wake and spent time in the league.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 5, 2014 8:42:09 GMT -5
Tucker has no business on that list as he was a solid player at Wake and spent time in the league. Tucker was a flop for GU.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Aug 5, 2014 8:52:07 GMT -5
Perry was among the highest rated recruits Georgetown ever signed, but after the injury Esherick quickly preferred Kevin Braswell in the lead role. I do give Perry credit for staying with the program when some in New Jersey probably suggested he transfer closer to home. On the balance of high school reputation over collegiate results, the top five would be: 1. Anthony Jones 2. Anthony Perry 3. Michael Tate 4. Jerry Nichols 5. Duane Spencer Honorable mention: Matt Causey Anthony Tucker? S. Domingo? Add Vernon Macklin.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 5, 2014 9:10:34 GMT -5
Who the Edited cares if Otto could defend quick point guards? Let me make it easy. With Whit and Otto: very good defense. With just Otto: even better defense. Without Whit or Otto: Editedastic defense. It's not that hard, people. Whit was a good defender, perhaps even a very good defender, but he did foul too much. Otto was better. It's not my fault people are obsessed with one on one defense when team defense is vastly more important in you know, keeping people from scoring. We can go in circles all day on this, but the reality is this: when Whit was suspended a very good defensive team GOT BETTER. And when Otto left, the team absolutely fell apart. Apologize for the length ahead of time because I know some of you will be complaining. And if the mods want to move this subject to a different thread then fine by me. Effective team defense is pretty much a byproduct of individuals being able to defend one-on-one. Of course you want individuals communicating, switching and being both able and willing to help out at times when a teammate in trouble needs it. But if you can’t defend one-on-one or even better yet if you have too many players on the floor who can’t defend one-on-one, then the only TEAM defense you will be able to carry out effectively is the zone. The argument that being able to play team defense is more important than being able to play one-on-one defense is as unnecessary as claiming that team offense is better than one-on-one offense. Sure you want to play as a team on offense, but if you don’t have key guys who can go one-on-one, break defenders down and create for others or themselves then for all its best intentions your team offense will eventually falter when going against the better opponents. It all goes hand-in-hand. Same for defense. If you don’t have guys who are capable of defending individually then there is a greater threat of a breakdown of the team defense agenda. Even working within the framework of a team, the best defenders must be able to hold their own when called upon because there will be crucial moments when their teammates will not be able to provide support in time. That’s true on the playgrounds, that’s true in summer leagues. It’s true in the NBA too which (despite the protests of college basketball fans) is where the best basketball defense is on display. No one wins Defensive Player of the Year because of work done on team defense with the possible exception of shotblockers who, by cleaning up the mess of others, are a cornerstone of team defense. No, those who win DPOY tend to do so because of how well they can guard their man, how well they defend any side of the court they find themselves on. To be an elite defender one must be able to prove he can take care of his own business first and foremost. When it comes to the NBA draft the scouts and teams evaluate you on your one-on-one capabilities (and the workouts are all about one-on-one). The same principles apply to college ball too where I can’t recall the last player who won defensive player of the year based upon his reputation of providing help defense (team defense). And then there is the question of who you can guard, how many different positions you can guard. Outside of a shotblocker the most valued type of defender is the long, athletic one who can guard multiple positions. Those guys are worth their weight in gold. Porter could guard threes very well. His lack of bulk sometimes gave him fits even guarding college fours but he overall acquitted himself well against them thanks to his length and attention to detail. But when we start factoring in guards that’s where he gets a bit shaky. He could rush out and bother the shot of guards who were about to hoist long jumpshots, but he wasn’t necessary effectively at applying pressure on guards dribbling on the perimeter. Whittington on the other hand was capable of this. That’s why III would even place him at the top of the key against point guards when the game was on the line. It is why III also placed Whitt into the lineup to shut down Rutgers’ perimeter players when the Hoyas had to count on their freshmen for a comeback victory at the Verizon center his freshmen year. Maybe it would have been difficult for Whittington to defend a ::edited:: point guard an entire game, but he could do so effectively for large stretches as well as guard the two and three positions. Like Otto he would have some challenges bodying up against bruising fours but also like Otto his length allowed him to at least be competent. So what you had in Greg was a player who could guard more positions than anyone else on the team and, yeah, that’s a pretty freakin’ big deal. What I think is most unfair regarding the criticism of Whittington is the blame tossed his way for the slow start to the 2012-2013 season. And let’s be clear....it wasn’t as if the Hoyas were awful throughout that entire stretch. The team won games against Texas and UCLA during that time and took a very good Indiana team into overtime. The worst part came during the opening two games of the Big East season. The team looked horrible. Was it because of Whittington and was the team unquestionably better off without him? It’s too much of a small sample size to make any firm conclusions. As I wrote earlier one could argue that it was III and the team’s understanding that their backs were against the wall that could have set things in motion for a course correction. And wasn’t an adjustment needed anyway considering the team, when Greg was still playing, was adjusting to having four guys 6’8 or taller in the starting lineup? Also it wasn’t just Greg struggling at first. Early on Otto was nowhere near the Otto Porter who would end up being chosen First Team All American. And was it the defense that was a problem or more the offense? In the first two Big East losses the defense was horrible one time, but the offense sucked during both contests. Scoring efficiently wasn’t much an issue throughout the season but scoring points in general would be. Those who want to claim the team was better off without Greg based upon the regular season the Hoyas had once he was out of the lineup must also contend with the fact that same team failed to make it to the Big East Finals and failed to win one lousy NCAA tournament game despite another great seeding. Therefore some of us can make our own claim that the upside and potential of the team was greater with Greg on the roster. That can’t be proven but it can’t be disproven either no matter how many of you may want to. Lastly you would have a stronger argument if after Otto’s departure Greg had still played and the Hoyas’ defense suffered immeasurably. But all you have to go by is a team without both Otto and Greg. Considering that the two of them were the best at giving opponents fits when trying to score, is there any wonder the team’s defense fell off greatly when neither was no longer around? Last season’s team, I would argue, could absorb the loss of one of those guys, not both. If Greg had played all season long the defense would have been far more effective. I can’t prove that but, again, you can’t disprove it either.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 5, 2014 9:18:46 GMT -5
Pointing to JT's assertion about GW's ability entering GU is completely irrelevant to that discussion. Hell, based on that measure, Anthony Perry is one of the greatest Hoyas of all time. Perry was among the highest rated recruits Georgetown ever signed, but after the injury Esherick quickly preferred Kevin Braswell in the lead role. I do give Perry credit for staying with the program when some in New Jersey probably suggested he transfer closer to home. On the balance of high school reputation over collegiate results, the top five would be: 1. Anthony Jones 2. Anthony Perry 3. Michael Tate 4. Jerry Nichols 5. Duane Spencer Honorable mention: Matt Causey Wait. Didn't Matt Causey suffer an injury as well? And I thought he had played pretty well for the Hoyas and was getting better and better before his transfer. Interesting enough five of the six guys you listed transferred from Gtown early on in their college careers. Certainly we can think of more guys who didn't live up to their reps who played at GU for an entire four years.
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