DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jul 21, 2014 1:13:29 GMT -5
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Jul 21, 2014 8:06:59 GMT -5
Just from the stats, Mourning seems to be going after rebounds. Assuming the last post was for yesterday's game, his rebounds in the six games are: 6, 8, 6, 5, 15, and 15. That's pretty impressive.
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JB5
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Post by JB5 on Jul 21, 2014 8:39:30 GMT -5
It's only Kenner league, but there were plenty of reasons to be optimistic yesterday. Peak was awesome, scoring about 30 -- including a bunch of 3s. Copeland had about 20 and ran the floor really well, and this was with Mike Beasley playing on the Tombs and firing up tons of ill-advised shots. While it was true that nobody was all that interested in defense, these guys look like they will be contributors. In the other game, White played well matched against South Florida's Gus Gilchrist. It was good to see him hold his own with a quality Div. 1 power forward like that. Campbell was hot from the field (made about 5 3s) and ran the break well. He got a little out of control on a few occasions, but I liked seeing the aggressiveness. The less good news was that Reggie Cameron spent much of the game on the bench and when he was on the floor was largely ignored by his teammates. We know he can make shots when he gets the ball, but Kenner favors guys who can create their own shot. I missed the early game, but heard that Jabril, Hopkins and Hayes all played well.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jul 21, 2014 9:13:53 GMT -5
I have learned from prior years not to make too many judgments --good or bad--about performances in the Kenner League. The one summer I was able to attend two weekends of play was very revealing. Defense is almost never a priority. Nor is any organized sense of offense. It was largely run and gun, which I found to be reflective only of the athleticism of the players and a very limited part of their skillset and not necessarily how they will fit within a particular system. At least in the past, the incoming freshmen could get used to playing together--something that appears to now be limited given the eternal wisdom of the NCAA in prohibiting more than two teammates from playing together.
I worry more about the older players. Is Hopkins improving his ability to finish around the basket and avoid fouls? Is Jabril developing a steady outside shot and the handle to play the point? Can Bowen become a credible outside shooter? Can Hayes contribute more than garbage time minutes as a backup post? How does DSR look at the point? From the limited reports I have seen, it sounds like a mixed bag with particularly encouraging reports on Jabril and DSR. Any more detailed information is welcome.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 21, 2014 10:27:40 GMT -5
The most exaggerated claim made about the Kenner League year after year is that no defense is played by the teams. This is pure nonsense and seems to be the result of folks being geared to think that all summer leagues are nothing more than run-n-gun affairs. KL hasn’t been like that for awhile. Check out the scores. They tend to be low scoring relatively speaking to other summer leagues. Go to Barry farms. Go to the summer leagues played in NYC. You can see some ridiculous numbers put up in those venues. Games ending up with scores like 140 to 125. Do we get such outcomes in the KL? No, almost never. You would have to have rosters dominated by pros for such outcomes in the KL and that is essentially because pros have a code to try not to hurt other pros in some **** summer league as a result of playing rough defense.
There is defense played in the KL, real defense. Is it as good as the d sometimes seen in the pros or college? Of course not. After all there isn’t any advanced scouting, you don’t get any time to practice as a team on defense, you can’t be sure who is on your roster week-to-week and in the end you realize it is just a summer league game that probably doesn’t mean the world to the players on the court as a college game or pro game may. And if you see some guys scoring more points than they typically do in a college game it is likely the result of that player being able to stay on then floor for far more minutes while taking far more shots than he would on his college team. Nonetheless there is still structure to how the KL games are played and most of those guys are playing for pride. Why else show up? If you are on the George Mason team why travel to Gtown simply to play some silly, glorified pickup game with teammates you barely now unless you were serious about getting better? Jeff Green would have been averaging 35 points plus if there wasn’t any defense played but he rarely put 30 in the KL. Same goes for Freeman, Monroe, Otto, etc. I’ve read reports this summer of Jabril having a great first half in a game but being less effective in the second half because the opposing teams made substantial defensive adjustments. Why do that if defense was so unimportant?
And, yes, people have been able to gauge who is a sure-fire stud based on their play in the KL. Over the years, over the decades, folks have seen guys do work on the court and say “yeah, he’s gonna be a good one.” Folks knew that as soon as they saw Steve Francis and Allen Iverson. Can’t recall the name of the DC product who crossed Joey Brown all up in the KL and later on went to get drafted by an NBA team but as soon as we saw that dude we realized he was a special talent. Just a few years back people on this board guessed Otto would be great just after seeing him a few times playing for the Tombs. And not all of the one that stand out end up being pros. Some end up being just terrific college basketball players but still that elevates them above most of the guys who ever suit up for Kenner.
Of course nothing is perfect. Some players may not have displayed as much in the summer league games as they would go on to do in "real" games. And from time to time you will come across players that have fantastic KL showings but end up being nothing more than average college players (I believe Anthony Perry may fall under that category). But those are exceptions to the rule. Typically when you look like a legit stud in the Kenner League you turn out to be that way when you suit up for college ball. Besides as I’ve written before if a player looks awful in the KL then folks are going to write him off (fair or not) so it is best for the collective optimism of Hoya fans to have our players put up good numbers during lazy, summer, weekend days.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 21, 2014 10:30:48 GMT -5
I worry more about the older players. Is Hopkins improving his ability to finish around the basket and avoid fouls? Is Jabril developing a steady outside shot and the handle to play the point? Can Bowen become a credible outside shooter? Can Hayes contribute more than garbage time minutes as a backup post? How does DSR look at the point? From the limited reports I have seen, it sounds like a mixed bag with particularly encouraging reports on Jabril and DSR. Any more detailed information is welcome. Well, if the word on the street about Jabril and DSR is really encouraging then that's they type of mixed bag you want because their development is more important than the other examples you listed. Besides I've read enough positive reports regarding Hayes to think he is coming along just fine.
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Jul 21, 2014 10:48:33 GMT -5
The most exaggerated claim made about the Kenner League year after year is that no defense is played by the teams. This is pure nonsense and seems to be the result of folks being geared to think that all summer leagues are nothing more than run-n-gun affairs. KL hasn’t been like that for awhile. Check out the scores. They tend to be low scoring relatively speaking to other summer leagues. Go to Barry farms. Go to the summer leagues played in NYC. You can see some ridiculous numbers put up in those venues. Games ending up with scores like 140 to 125. Do we get such outcomes in the KL? No, almost never. You would have to have rosters dominated by pros for such outcomes in the KL and that is essentially because pros have a code to try not to hurt other pros in some **** summer league as a result of playing rough defense. There is defense played in the KL, real defense. Is it as good as the d sometimes seen in the pros or college? Of course not. After all there isn’t any advanced scouting, you don’t get any time to practice as a team on defense, you can’t be sure who is on your roster week-to-week and in the end you realize it is just a summer league game that probably doesn’t mean the world to the players on the court as a college game or pro game may. And if you see some guys scoring more points than they typically do in a college game it is likely the result of that player being able to stay on then floor for far more minutes while taking far more shots than he would on his college team. Nonetheless there is still structure to how the KL games are played and most of those guys are playing for pride. Why else show up? If you are on the George Mason team why travel to Gtown simply to play some silly, glorified pickup game with teammates you barely now unless you were serious about getting better? Jeff Green would have been averaging 35 points plus if there wasn’t any defense played but he rarely put 30 in the KL. Same goes for Freeman, Monroe, Otto, etc. I’ve read reports this summer of Jabril having a great first half in a game but being less effective in the second half because the opposing teams made substantial defensive adjustments. Why do that if defense was so unimportant? And, yes, people have been able to gauge who is a sure-fire stud based on their play in the KL. Over the years, over the decades, folks have seen guys do work on the court and say “yeah, he’s gonna be a good one.” Folks knew that as soon as they saw Steve Francis and Allen Iverson. Can’t recall the name of the DC product who crossed Joey Brown all up in the KL and later on went to get drafted by an NBA team but as soon as we saw that dude we realized he was a special talent. Just a few years back people on this board guessed Otto would be great just after seeing him a few times playing for the Tombs. And not all of the one that stand out end up being pros. Some end up being just terrific college basketball players but still that elevates them above most of the guys who ever suit up for Kenner. Of course nothing is perfect. Some players may not have displayed as much in the summer league games as they would go on to do in "real" games. And from time to time you will come across players that have fantastic KL showings but end up being nothing more than average college players (I believe Anthony Perry may fall under that category). But those are exceptions to the rule. Typically when you look like a legit stud in the Kenner League you turn out to be that way when you suit up for college ball. Besides as I’ve written before if a player looks awful in the KL then folks are going to write him off (fair or not) so it is best for the collective optimism of Hoya fans to have our players put up good numbers during lazy, summer, weekend days. This
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Jul 21, 2014 13:00:45 GMT -5
I respect your views MCI, and recognize that my firsthand sample was just 4 days but I cannot say that I saw anything that resembled defense.
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TC
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Post by TC on Jul 21, 2014 13:16:14 GMT -5
Just from the stats, Mourning seems to be going after rebounds. Assuming the last post was for yesterday's game, his rebounds in the six games are: 6, 8, 6, 5, 15, and 15. That's pretty impressive. Two things : - it's Kenner - it's Kenner "statistics" - which are at best an approximation, like the 47 points I saw Lonnie Baxter score against the Tombs in 1999. It might have been more like 25 points, but it felt like 47 points, so I think I put 47 in a Kenner report.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 21, 2014 14:41:14 GMT -5
I think Kenner is pretty translatable. As MCI notes, it's not the NY leagues or Philly, where Corey Fisher was throwing down 40pt triple doubles daily. There's some defense and even some teams trying to run offenses (though that's likely gone with the NCAA ruling).
The key is knowing how it translates. Player getting everything on cherry-picking fast breaks? Big man dunking at will down low? Likely not translateable. Players hitting outside shots, showing a new aggressiveness driving or showing off a better handle? Translatable.
Yeah, LJ Peak isn't going to average 37. Of course that's high. But putting in 37 versus putting in 12, and how he did it (with a combination of different ways to score) means something. You don't just toss it out.
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Thomas
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Post by Thomas on Jul 21, 2014 14:55:37 GMT -5
Can’t recall the name of the DC product who crossed Joey Brown all up in the KL and later on went to get drafted by an NBA team but as soon as we saw that dude we realized he was a special talent. I think you're talking about Moochie Norris!! I've read accounts from others who remember how well he played that summer, even though it was over 20 years ago. I agree with everything you wrote, despite the laid back nature of the Kenner League, you can definitely gauge how well an incoming freshman can be or how much an upperclassman has improved by what they do in the Kenner League. Especially, now that they've combined college players with pros. I can think of a number of Georgetown and non-Georgetown players I saw thrive or struggle in the Kenner League and it translated into what I saw when they suited up for their college team
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 21, 2014 15:44:54 GMT -5
Can’t recall the name of the DC product who crossed Joey Brown all up in the KL and later on went to get drafted by an NBA team but as soon as we saw that dude we realized he was a special talent. I think you're talking about Moochie Norris!! I've read accounts from others who remember how well he played that summer, even though it was over 20 years ago. Yes!!! It was Moochie Norris. I recall it was my first Kenner League game that I ever attended, it was on a Saturday night back when KL games could start on a summer weekend evening after 8PM. A couple of older friends who had driver's licenses took me to the game because I wanted to see the Hoyas' prize recruit Othella Harrington. Othella played alright but the guy that got everyone talking was Norris who was crossing poor Joey Brown over again and again. Many of us were like "who the hell is that kid" which translates to "why didn't my school/team sign him". Those in the stands who were in the know of all things DC hoops informed the rest of us that the guy was Moochie Norris. Man, I'm getting old. Couldn't even recall his name.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Jul 21, 2014 16:29:53 GMT -5
I think Kenner is pretty translatable. As MCI notes, it's not the NY leagues or Philly, where Corey Fisher was throwing down 40pt triple doubles daily. There's some defense and even some teams trying to run offenses (though that's likely gone with the NCAA ruling). The key is knowing how it translates. Player getting everything on cherry-picking fast breaks? Big man dunking at will down low? Likely not translateable. Players hitting outside shots, showing a new aggressiveness driving or showing off a better handle? Translatable. Yeah, LJ Peak isn't going to average 37. Of course that's high. But putting in 37 versus putting in 12, and how he did it (with a combination of different ways to score) means something. You don't just toss it out. And speaking of Mr. Peak what does it say about Hoya fandom that there is very little buzz or online activity/discussion regarding what Peak is doing? For a guy who is about to enter into his first year of D1 college hoops, he appears to be putting up numbers close to what two other guys in similar circumstances did: Iverson and Steve Francis. Of course Iverson was about a year or so older heading into his freshman season and Francis was like 20 because he had spent two years in juco before he would make his debut with the Terps. Peak is 18 and is apparently playing like a man. Even having pros on his team like Jeff Green or Beasley doesn't seem to phase him or make him shrink in their presence. I realize I can't make any claims he is as good Iverson and Francis who were both #1 picks in the NBA draft. But from all reports he is putting on quite a show in the KL and is apparently more electrifying than any frosh of III's has looked in the KL (and that is saying a lot). Yet Kenner League discussion is virtually dead or slow on all three main Hoya sites. There is so little discussion regarding this guy whether it be message boards or twitter. If he was going to Maryland I'm sure Terp fans would be calling in to Sports 980 bragging about this guy.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 21, 2014 16:57:14 GMT -5
"And speaking of Mr. Peak what does it say about Hoya fandom that there is very little buzz or online activity/discussion regarding what Peak is doing?" It says that HT GU students and alumni live/come from all over the world and cannot go to McD on weekends in July; Twerps live around College Park, MD.
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Thomas
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Post by Thomas on Jul 21, 2014 17:42:04 GMT -5
MCIGuy and prhoya, I think the reason there is less buzz is because the Georgetown players are spread out on so many teams. In the past, it seemed as if Tombs and Clyde's had all the key Georgetown players. I wish the NCAA hadn't put in that rule. Could you imagine if the freshman were all on Tombs with Smith-Rivera!!! What a spectacular show that would be, it would be reminiscent to the 2004 and 2005 Tombs squads with guys like Jeff Green, Brandon Bowman, Patrick Ewing Jr, John Wallace, Jessie Sapp and the rest or the 2008 Tombs squad that had Chris Wright and the 2008 freshman class!! Tombs also had former Tennessee standout Wayne Chism yesterday. Anyone who follows college basketball should remember him because of the interesting way he wore his headband, that makes what L.J.Peak did even more impressive.
It seems as if the Terp players no longer want to participate in the Kenner League. I don't understand it, Maryland players were always a big part of the Kenner League.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jul 21, 2014 18:05:18 GMT -5
I think Kenner is pretty translatable. As MCI notes, it's not the NY leagues or Philly, where Corey Fisher was throwing down 40pt triple doubles daily. There's some defense and even some teams trying to run offenses (though that's likely gone with the NCAA ruling). The key is knowing how it translates. Player getting everything on cherry-picking fast breaks? Big man dunking at will down low? Likely not translateable. Players hitting outside shots, showing a new aggressiveness driving or showing off a better handle? Translatable. Yeah, LJ Peak isn't going to average 37. Of course that's high. But putting in 37 versus putting in 12, and how he did it (with a combination of different ways to score) means something. You don't just toss it out. And speaking of Mr. Peak what does it say about Hoya fandom that there is very little buzz or online activity/discussion regarding what Peak is doing? For a guy who is about to enter into his first year of D1 college hoops, he appears to be putting up numbers close to what two other guys in similar circumstances did: Iverson and Steve Francis. Of course Iverson was about a year or so older heading into his freshman season and Francis was like 20 because he had spent two years in juco before he would make his debut with the Terps. Peak is 18 and is apparently playing like a man. Even having pros on his team like Jeff Green or Beasley doesn't seem to phase him or make him shrink in their presence. I realize I can't make any claims he is as good Iverson and Francis who were both #1 picks in the NBA draft. But from all reports he is putting on quite a show in the KL and is apparently more electrifying than any frosh of III's has looked in the KL (and that is saying a lot). Yet Kenner League discussion is virtually dead or slow on all three main Hoya sites. There is so little discussion regarding this guy whether it be message boards or twitter. If he was going to Maryland I'm sure Terp fans would be calling in to Sports 980 bragging about this guy. Honestly, no clue. Maybe it's the lack of an abundance of recaps? Maybe our re-cappers are being too responsible in their praise? Nothing in this Kenner League has made me think this class is going to be anything but amazing, and I'm relying entirely on what's just been written and relayed. But what questions did we really have, coming in? There were really no questions about Isaac Copeland and Paul White that needed to be answered -- it's only a question of whether they would be further along than expected. Both have hit my expectations from reports -- neither dominating but still showing the skills that will make them Hoya stars sooner rather than later. For Peak, there were two possible questions: was he just tearing up weak competition in South Carolina; and will his up and down game there truly translate to the college game, and the college game specifically at Georgetown. I'm confident that neither is a real issue, but the latter would never be answered definitely at Kenner anyway. But yeah, it's clear that it wasn't the weak South Carolina competition. Kenner ain't the best defense, but he's playing at the college level, and sometimes up to pros. These are at minimum his peers and sometimes grown men with years of experience on him. No one is accidentally dropping 37. He belongs -- and while that doesn't mean he's winning a scoring title right out, the idea that he's not going to be a contributor freshman year should be gone from people's heads. Period. I also think the reports have been clear enough that he's not just scoring on cherry-picking and weak defensive plays. His shot is streaky, but he's creating in the half-court as well as creating points on the break. People should be excited. Not sure why they aren't. And the Tre(y)s! I had almost reserved in my mind that Campbell would be less of a freshman contributor than Markel was (who was not good as a frosh; passable, but not a positive). He's playing a much larger role in Kenner than I expected, and while people are giving the huge caveats here, I actually think his Kenner performance seems like he's further ahead than his tape, high school play and ranking might have hinted. We're thin at PG -- I get that Kenner lends itself to his game, that he's a streaky shooter and has made some bad decisions... but again, it seems like he can play. Same with Trey. I thought Mourning was a good sign, but many folks didn't think he could play D-I. Doesn't everyone feel a little better now? Sure, he's obviously not starting as a freshman, etc., but we've had our share of complete project big men in Kenner who didn't show what Mourning showed in his first few games.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Jul 21, 2014 18:35:50 GMT -5
Yeah I think it's just the lack of people being able to attend. I used to go every year, but now I'm in Philly and with a busy summer I won't be able to see any Kenner League this year. FLHoya not doing his recaps obviously hurts discussion on this site. I think there's been a decent amount of discussion on Casual Hoya with reports of every single day.
I'm sure the disappointing season last year, and the last couple of years, means there are less people lurking on these sites these days.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jul 21, 2014 18:50:41 GMT -5
With Nate gone, this is JT3's first season without an experienced big who passes to cutters in our half-court offense. Hops and Josh have done it, but not like Nate, Hank, Roy, Jeff and Greg. I'm looking at White taking over that role over the course of the season. This coming season will be as good as any to try combo offense with a lot of pressing on defense.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jul 21, 2014 19:43:32 GMT -5
With Nate gone, this is JT3's first season without an experienced big who passes to cutters in our half-court offense. Hops and Josh have done it, but not like Nate, Hank, Roy, Jeff and Greg. I'm looking at White taking over that role over the course of the season. This coming season will be as good as any to try combo offense with a lot of pressing on defense. I hope it's Smith. If he's where he needs to be, his passing can open up the entire offense.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Jul 21, 2014 19:51:54 GMT -5
I think Kenner is pretty translatable. As MCI notes, it's not the NY leagues or Philly, where Corey Fisher was throwing down 40pt triple doubles daily. There's some defense and even some teams trying to run offenses (though that's likely gone with the NCAA ruling). The key is knowing how it translates. Player getting everything on cherry-picking fast breaks? Big man dunking at will down low? Likely not translateable. Players hitting outside shots, showing a new aggressiveness driving or showing off a better handle? Translatable. Yeah, LJ Peak isn't going to average 37. Of course that's high. But putting in 37 versus putting in 12, and how he did it (with a combination of different ways to score) means something. You don't just toss it out. And speaking of Mr. Peak what does it say about Hoya fandom that there is very little buzz or online activity/discussion regarding what Peak is doing? For a guy who is about to enter into his first year of D1 college hoops, he appears to be putting up numbers close to what two other guys in similar circumstances did: Iverson and Steve Francis. Of course Iverson was about a year or so older heading into his freshman season and Francis was like 20 because he had spent two years in juco before he would make his debut with the Terps. Peak is 18 and is apparently playing like a man. Even having pros on his team like Jeff Green or Beasley doesn't seem to phase him or make him shrink in their presence. I realize I can't make any claims he is as good Iverson and Francis who were both #1 picks in the NBA draft. But from all reports he is putting on quite a show in the KL and is apparently more electrifying than any frosh of III's has looked in the KL (and that is saying a lot). Yet Kenner League discussion is virtually dead or slow on all three main Hoya sites. There is so little discussion regarding this guy whether it be message boards or twitter. If he was going to Maryland I'm sure Terp fans would be calling in to Sports 980 bragging about this guy. It's probably due to the fact we know Peak inside & out through recruiting.. Peak has a 36 page thread on the recruiting board that covered his entire senior year, for me there's not much he could do in kenner to raise my excitement level for him. Same goes for Copeland & White too.. The way recruiting is covered now it allows folks to really get a feel for kids before they enter college..
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