Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 19:32:16 GMT -5
Should have stopped there…. No I should not have. Any time there's any criticism of the program or 3 everyone goes crazy. Wake up. I have every right to say that We all know that Vee had "something" and 3 was too stubborn to give him game minutes when a starter was struggling. I call it the way I see it. Yes we both have every right to say what we said. I think you should have stopped there, I also call it the way I see it. Giving Vee a couple more minutes when a starter is struggling doesn’t necessarily stop him from transferring now does it? Vee wanted a larger role. Is a couple more minutes when a starter struggles enough? He gets 20-30 a night at Dayton he wasn’t getting that here at anytime in his career. Good for him His 2 best friends on the team Benni and Hollis also left the program that year.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 23, 2014 19:32:51 GMT -5
It's not about this season Yaboy, we all know he would graduated last season.. The discussion is would he have helped in his last 2 seasons at G'town and whether or not JT3's short rotation played a role in him leaving.. But it took you guys 5 years to notice? Nobody would have even brought up dood if it wasn’t for his play in his 5th year. When we lost to NC State nobody said “If only Vee didn’t transfer, same with last year. Think guys should just be happy he found himself a nice fit and is playing well but this mess is over the top imo. He would have never been more than a bench guy here. Is that what Vee wanted?? Prob not so he bounced and found what he was looking for at Dayton. Good for him! I’m not going to bash a coach for not playing a kid big minutes when he’s behind 3 ALL BE guys. His best season at a MId Major was not equal to the second best season averages by any of those guys playing in the BE and they were upperclassmen sans Clark I don't get where the 5 years comes from Yaboy? Vee has been a frequent topic in threads for the last 2 seasons, just like JB has.. I'm happy for him & probably wouldn't jump in if folks didn't run him down as a way to say it was no big deal that he left.. I'm not and won't argue that Clark was a better player that or any year but I do feel JT3 could have found more time for Vee especially when you consider that Freeman & Wright were graduating.. I contend he would have been a nice contributor in his jr & sr years whether off the bench or not.. Vee produced in the little time he was given but it was never rewarded.. I never said he should have played "big" minutes in his soph year I just think he should have played more minutes.. Dense mentioned how Markel won the battle for time as the 4th guard but Vee's numbers as a soph were much better than Markel's as a freshman which probably didnt help Vee's mind set either.. It is what it is now though..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 19:39:48 GMT -5
But it took you guys 5 years to notice? Nobody would have even brought up dood if it wasn’t for his play in his 5th year. When we lost to NC State nobody said “If only Vee didn’t transfer, same with last year. Think guys should just be happy he found himself a nice fit and is playing well but this mess is over the top imo. He would have never been more than a bench guy here. Is that what Vee wanted?? Prob not so he bounced and found what he was looking for at Dayton. Good for him! I’m not going to bash a coach for not playing a kid big minutes when he’s behind 3 ALL BE guys. His best season at a MId Major was not equal to the second best season averages by any of those guys playing in the BE and they were upperclassmen sans Clark I don't get where the 5 years comes from Yaboy? Vee has been a frequent topic in threads for the last 2 seasons, just like JB has.. I'm happy for him & probably wouldn't jump in if folks didn't run him down as a way to say it was no big deal that he left.. I'm not and won't argue that Clark was a better player that or any year but I do feel JT3 could have found more time for Vee especially when you consider that Freeman & Wright were graduating.. I contend he would have been a nice contributor in his jr & sr years whether off the bench or not.. Vee produced in the little time he was given but it was never rewarded.. I never said he should have played "big" minutes in his soph year I just think he should have played more minutes.. Dense mentioned how Markel won the battle for time as the 4th guard but Vee's numbers as a soph were much better than Markel's as a freshman which probably didnt help Vee's mind set either.. It is what it is now though.. Even the role you described above may have not been enough to keep Vee, that’s the point. It’s about what Vee wanted.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 23, 2014 19:40:57 GMT -5
You think that everything is a knock on 3, so . . . Vee would have had a few more minutes as a junior, and even more as a senior last year. He left because he wanted a better chance to start. He went to an A10 school and could not start there. He made the best of the situation, and had a moment Thursday he will never forget. Fantastic for him. Enough of this silliness. I think that as head coach he runs the practices, I think that he coaches the games, I also think that he is in charge of his staff. I think his staff is does the recruiting.... So I do think the head coach has a lot to do with teams performance. I am not calling for JT3 to be fired let me make that very clear. I do think that he better get this back on track or he should be fired. Know one deserves a lifetime contract in life. I think JT3 is a good coach. Lets just get that straight. We won the Big East last year and earned a number 2 seed. This year was a disappointment - one year. So he should be fired if he does not get it "back on track"?! Give me a break. When you hammer him because a sub at Georgetown transferred to become a sub at an A10 school, your agenda becomes clear. I wish that, just once, the anti-3 detractors would at least have the cojones to reveal their true colors instead of trying to hide behind the trite "I do think he is a good coach" or "I am usually a fan of our coach" drivel. You don't like our coach. You want him gone. Just say it.
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njhoya78
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Post by njhoya78 on Mar 23, 2014 19:44:11 GMT -5
I don't think anyone on this board has been "running" Vee Sanford down. What I have seen is an acknowledgement, through various posters, that (a) Sanford was well liked by the Hoyas' fan base, (b) we would have liked for him to have stayed, (c) that he voluntarily decided to transfer to Dayton because he thought he'd get more opportunity there than at GU, (d) he probably did not get all of the time he expected at Dayton but was an valued part of their rotation, (e) that Sanford is still close to his former Hoya teammates, and (f) everyone is happy for Sanford.
I have seen no one state that Sanford's leaving was "no big deal." By the same token, I don't believe that anyone can seriously argue that the 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 seasons would have had significantly more success had Sanford stayed. What happened with Sanford this season has no relevance at all, for had he stayed, he would have already used all four seasons of eligibility.
Can we maybe stop beating this very dead horse?
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richfame
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Post by richfame on Mar 23, 2014 19:55:04 GMT -5
I think that as head coach he runs the practices, I think that he coaches the games, I also think that he is in charge of his staff. I think his staff is does the recruiting.... So I do think the head coach has a lot to do with teams performance. I am not calling for JT3 to be fired let me make that very clear. I do think that he better get this back on track or he should be fired. Know one deserves a lifetime contract in life. I think JT3 is a good coach. Lets just get that straight. We won the Big East last year and earned a number 2 seed. This year was a disappointment - one year. So he should be fired if he does not get it "back on track"?! Give me a break. When you hammer him because a sub at Georgetown transferred to become a sub at an A10 school, your agenda becomes clear. I wish that, just once, the anti-3 detractors would at least have the cojones to reveal their true colors instead of trying to hide behind the trite "I do think he is a good coach" or "I am usually a fan of our coach" drivel. You don't like our coach. You want him gone. Just say it. I want accountability! I hate the notion of a job for life. I also hate the belief that because the last time we had a coach not named Thompson it was a disaster and any future non Thompson will equally be a disaster. I will tell u again. He should not be fired. He should take heat for a bad season and take heat for his NCAA tournament flame outs. Three is a cool guy and I just don't see the fire in our teams. We used to have that swagger when we took the court even if we didn't have the best athletes. That's gone. My main post was to congrat vee. But I thought it was worth pointing out it would have been nice having vee on our team. Since our talent level has been so low.
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dense
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Post by dense on Mar 23, 2014 19:58:45 GMT -5
cool. i was responding to someone who said it would've been stupid to play a 3 guard lineup. that lineup can work. in fact, GU has gotten beat multiple times by 3 guard lineups. Vee also is taller and a better defensive player than Freeman or Clark...definitely would have helped on defensive rebounds. Just look at what VCU and NC State did to us in the NCAA tournament...both of those teams got to the rim at will with the dribble drive penetration.. Are people going to say Vee Sanford could not have helped us win those games?? NC State was a virtual coin flip game...1 or 2 stops was all we needed to get to the Sweet 16 in 2012. Henry sims phantom calls lost that game. We were dominating that game in the 1st half. Last 3 mins it all fell apart cause not having Henry caught up. We made a huge rally because NCst could not stop Henry.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Mar 23, 2014 20:04:34 GMT -5
I don't think anyone on this board has been "running" Vee Sanford down. What I have seen is an acknowledgement, through various posters, that (a) Sanford was well liked by the Hoyas' fan base, (b) we would have liked for him to have stayed, (c) that he voluntarily decided to transfer to Dayton because he thought he'd get more opportunity there than at GU, (d) he probably did not get all of the time he expected at Dayton but was an valued part of their rotation, (e) that Sanford is still close to his former Hoya teammates, and (f) everyone is happy for Sanford. I have seen no one state that Sanford's leaving was "no big deal." By the same token, I don't believe that anyone can seriously argue that the 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 seasons would have had significantly more success had Sanford stayed. What happened with Sanford this season has no relevance at all, for had he stayed, he would have already used all four seasons of eligibility. Can we maybe stop beating this very dead horse? I took exception with one particular post and went overboard by saying folks were "running" Vee down.. My bad.. It seems to be a topic folks are interested in, it'll fade out on its own like they all do..
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 23, 2014 20:12:57 GMT -5
We won the Big East last year and earned a number 2 seed. This year was a disappointment - one year. So he should be fired if he does not get it "back on track"?! Give me a break. When you hammer him because a sub at Georgetown transferred to become a sub at an A10 school, your agenda becomes clear. I wish that, just once, the anti-3 detractors would at least have the cojones to reveal their true colors instead of trying to hide behind the trite "I do think he is a good coach" or "I am usually a fan of our coach" drivel. You don't like our coach. You want him gone. Just say it. I want accountability! I hate the notion of a job for life. I also hate the belief that because the last time we had a coach not named Thompson it was a disaster and any future non Thompson will equally be a disaster. I will tell u again. He should not be fired. He should take heat for a bad season and take heat for his NCAA tournament flame outs. Three is a cool guy and I just don't see the fire in our teams. We used to have that swagger when we took the court even if we didn't have the best athletes. That's gone. My main post was to congrat vee. But I thought it was worth pointing out it would have been nice having vee on our team. Since our talent level has been so low. He should take heat for the NCAA upsets. But not for a single bad season. If it becomes a pattern that will be different.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Mar 23, 2014 20:20:10 GMT -5
I want accountability! I hate the notion of a job for life. I also hate the belief that because the last time we had a coach not named Thompson it was a disaster and any future non Thompson will equally be a disaster. He doesn't have a job for life. And no, when Thompson is no longer here, it won't be impossible for this team to win. But there are certain realities: 1. A Thompson has certain advantages here that other coaches do not 2. There's no benefit for the team to a public statement that Thompson is not here for life/that he's on the hot seat 3. He's a good coach and there's a better than even chance our next coach will be worse. Publicly? What good does that do? Make you feel better and give opposing coaches some negative recruiting fodder. People motivated by fear tend to make short-term decisions and ignore the long term. Who wants that even if you believe he deserves some "heat." Where does that rank versus winning? Did we really have that swagger when we weren't good? Seems to me that was mostly when we were national title contenders.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Mar 23, 2014 20:24:11 GMT -5
We won the Big East last year and earned a number 2 seed. This year was a disappointment - one year. So he should be fired if he does not get it "back on track"?! Give me a break. When you hammer him because a sub at Georgetown transferred to become a sub at an A10 school, your agenda becomes clear. I wish that, just once, the anti-3 detractors would at least have the cojones to reveal their true colors instead of trying to hide behind the trite "I do think he is a good coach" or "I am usually a fan of our coach" drivel. You don't like our coach. You want him gone. Just say it. I want accountability! I hate the notion of a job for life. I also hate the belief that because the last time we had a coach not named Thompson it was a disaster and any future non Thompson will equally be a disaster. I will tell u again. He should not be fired. He should take heat for a bad season and take heat for his NCAA tournament flame outs. Three is a cool guy and I just don't see the fire in our teams. We used to have that swagger when we took the court even if we didn't have the best athletes. That's gone. My main post was to congrat vee. But I thought it was worth pointing out it would have been nice having vee on our team. Since our talent level has been so low. You should just have congratulated Vee, because everything else you said was total BS.
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Mar 23, 2014 20:25:57 GMT -5
I want accountability! I hate the notion of a job for life. I also hate the belief that because the last time we had a coach not named Thompson it was a disaster and any future non Thompson will equally be a disaster. I will tell u again. He should not be fired. He should take heat for a bad season and take heat for his NCAA tournament flame outs. Three is a cool guy and I just don't see the fire in our teams. We used to have that swagger when we took the court even if we didn't have the best athletes. That's gone. My main post was to congrat vee. But I thought it was worth pointing out it would have been nice having vee on our team. Since our talent level has been so low. He should take heat for the NCAA upsets. But not for a single bad season. If it becomes a pattern that will be different. Actually, surprised that you are admitting this. Now we just need TC to stop calling consecutive losses to double digit seeds a crap shoot...some type of random fluke.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 23, 2014 20:48:17 GMT -5
Now we just need TC to stop calling consecutive losses to double digit seeds a crap shoot...some type of random fluke. It's not a fluke, but you have to admit there is some level of volatility and pure luck involved. For example, if you run a coin flip in statistical software, you'll see that there are actually quite frequent instances where the same outcome (heads or tails) comes 4, 5, 6, or more times in a row. You see the same thing in casinos that list the red/black results on a roulette board - while it's close to 50/50 over the long run, it's not uncommon to see black come out 6 out of 7 times or something like that. When you have a small sample size anything can happen. I don't think there is anybody who would argue that the players and staff have no role in the recent NCAA post-season failures, but if the last 4 days of NCAA basketball show anything, it's that losses like ours are more common than one would think. It's because of two things: (1) anything can happen in one game (this is even more true in baseball, where even the best dominant teams lose a ton of games), and (2) there is a lot more parity in basketball than one things. Is there really a huge difference between a 5 seed and a 12? Or 3 and a 14? In the long run, perhaps, but not in a one game elimination. This does not even account for the fact that some of our losses are pretty explainable (VCU - Wright's wrist, Davidson - quasi-home game for Davidson).
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Mar 23, 2014 20:54:57 GMT -5
Now we just need TC to stop calling consecutive losses to double digit seeds a crap shoot...some type of random fluke. It's not a fluke, but you have to admit there is some level of volatility and pure luck involved. For example, if you run a coin flip in statistical software, you'll see that there are actually quite frequent instances where the same outcome (heads or tails) comes 4, 5, 6, or more times in a row. You see the same thing in casinos that list the red/black results on a roulette board - while it's close to 50/50 over the long run, it's not uncommon to see black come out 6 out of 7 times or something like that. When you have a small sample size anything can happen. I don't think there is anybody who would argue that the players and staff have no role in the recent NCAA post-season failures, but if the last 4 days of NCAA basketball show anything, it's that losses like ours are more common than one would think. It's because of two things: (1) anything can happen in one game (this is even more true in baseball, where even the best dominant teams lose a ton of games), and (2) there is a lot more parity in basketball than one things. Is there really a huge difference between a 5 seed and a 12? Or 3 and a 14? In the long run, perhaps, but not in a one game elimination. This does not even account for the fact that some of our losses are pretty explainable (VCU - Wright's wrist, Davidson - quasi-home game for Davidson). Here are my questions for you: If a result happens 5 consecutive times, does that not mean the result is more of a tendency than a fluke/coincidence? Also are u saying that when we step on the court in the NCAA Tourney, the result is a 50/50 coin flip regardless of seeding?
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Mar 23, 2014 21:03:52 GMT -5
Here are my questions for you: If a result happens 5 consecutive times, does that not mean the result is more of a tendency than a fluke/coincidence? Also are u saying that when we step on the court in the NCAA Tourney, the result is a 50/50 coin flip regardless of seeding? No, I am not saying that NCAA games are 50/50. Clearly that's not the case in any game. But, I think there were some where we were well above 50/50, and some where we may have actually been below 50/50 going in (Davidson or VCU) when you account for home court advantage, injuries, etc. I just used that as an example. Seeding is a relative number. If you are a 3 seed, that probably means you should win most of the time. But even 70% (which is a fairly high number) means that if you play a single game 10 times, you still lose three times. As for the "5 consecutive times," it may be a tendency, but you need to consider the factors: 2008: We won the first game. We lose the second game because of foul trouble, an underrated Davidson team with an NBA star and home court advantage. 2010: Ohio loss was awful. No real explanation. 2011: VCU loss. This was a rough loss, but Chris Wright broke his hand, and we got killed at the end of the regular season without him. The idea we should have dominated is ridiculous, especially when you consider that VCU team was hot and made it to the Final Four. 2012: Again, we won a game (people never mention that), and lost to a talented NC state team. This is probably one of those 60/40 or 55/45 games. If you played in 100 times, we come out the winner, but even if played 10 times, you only expect to win maybe 6. 2013: FGCU. Awful loss. So no, I don't see a pattern. Two of the losses (separated by 4 seasons) were terrible. The others all had a variety of other factors that probably didn't make us as big favorites as people would like to believe.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Mar 24, 2014 7:15:02 GMT -5
Blah blah blah Vee has won more NCAA games than any recent Hoya ugh
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This Just In
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Post by This Just In on Mar 24, 2014 7:29:23 GMT -5
Here are my questions for you: If a result happens 5 consecutive times, does that not mean the result is more of a tendency than a fluke/coincidence? Also are u saying that when we step on the court in the NCAA Tourney, the result is a 50/50 coin flip regardless of seeding? No, I am not saying that NCAA games are 50/50. Clearly that's not the case in any game. But, I think there were some where we were well above 50/50, and some where we may have actually been below 50/50 going in (Davidson or VCU) when you account for home court advantage, injuries, etc. I just used that as an example. Seeding is a relative number. If you are a 3 seed, that probably means you should win most of the time. But even 70% (which is a fairly high number) means that if you play a single game 10 times, you still lose three times. As for the "5 consecutive times," it may be a tendency, but you need to consider the factors: 2008: We won the first game. We lose the second game because of foul trouble, an underrated Davidson team with an NBA star and home court advantage. 2010: Ohio loss was awful. No real explanation. 2011: VCU loss. This was a rough loss, but Chris Wright broke his hand, and we got killed at the end of the regular season without him. The idea we should have dominated is ridiculous, especially when you consider that VCU team was hot and made it to the Final Four. 2012: Again, we won a game (people never mention that), and lost to a talented NC state team. This is probably one of those 60/40 or 55/45 games. If you played in 100 times, we come out the winner, but even if played 10 times, you only expect to win maybe 6. 2013: FGCU. Awful loss. So no, I don't see a pattern. Two of the losses (separated by 4 seasons) were terrible. The others all had a variety of other factors that probably didn't make us as big favorites as people would like to believe. Point noted...appreciate the insight into the rationale.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Mar 24, 2014 8:10:19 GMT -5
Blah blah blah Vee has won more NCAA games than any recent Hoya ugh Agreed. Congrats Vee and Dayton. The loss of Vee didn't keep us out of the second week these past 7 years. Neither however did the loss of Lady Luck.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 8:48:30 GMT -5
I do have some criticism of transfers such as Bennimon and V. Sanford. However, my criticism is aimed at their families for not providing the proper guidance. Neither one is going to the NBA. Now I am not saying that there is anything wrong with a degree from Towson or Dayton. However, neither is a degree from a presitgous university like Georgetown. It is a mistake that both of them will rue down the line when they start applying for jobs.
Anyway, that is how I see it.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Mar 24, 2014 9:29:26 GMT -5
He should take heat for the NCAA upsets. But not for a single bad season. If it becomes a pattern that will be different. Actually, surprised that you are admitting this. Now we just need TC to stop calling consecutive losses to double digit seeds a crap shoot...some type of random fluke. Why are you surprised? We are all unhappy with the Ohio and FGCU losses. The coach is accountable for the results, And guess what - he knows that, and has admitted that they are not acceptable, and we have to do better. He HASS taken heat - it has been repeatedly discussed by the talking heads, the journalists, this board. But understand that by "take heat" I do not mean his job should be at stake. Not by a mile. But we should all expect better NCAA results - again, just as he and his staff do.
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