hoyaboya
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Post by hoyaboya on Apr 11, 2016 11:17:02 GMT -5
Can someone please explain to me what is meant by over recruiting a player? I don't quite get it because it seems like our fanbase is asking for a better recruit to pop each off season. I mean aren't we technically over recruiting TY if Keldon pops? If Chris pops should we stop recriting PGs for 2 years? IMO there is no such thing as over recruiting. I am no Coach K fan but he probably thought Grayson was gone and was thrown off by him coming back. And the games I saw I wasn't impressed at all with Thornton............ I think this is a very good question, actually, I would be curious to hear other people's thoughts. I always thought of "recruiting over" as this type of situation: Team recruits Player X in high school. Player X turns out to not be that good. Team recruits Player Y at the same position to fulfill the same role, from the same class. I mean, when guys are in different classes, how can it be "recruiting over"? Is a staff expected to stop recruiting at a position simply because someone highly skilled is already there? I mean, at a school like Georgetown or Villanova, the roster tends to be stable so it's easy to make a decision like that. In contrast, for a one-and-done type of school like Duke, it seems like that type of recruiting is pretty common. For example, is recruiting Mulmore and Pryor "recruiting over" Campbell? I suppose it would be since they're in the same class. I would genuinely be interested in how others define that term, especially our resident recruiting gurus. Yes, rightfully so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 11:17:12 GMT -5
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rockhoya
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Post by rockhoya on Apr 11, 2016 11:17:49 GMT -5
Can someone please explain to me what is meant by over recruiting a player? I don't quite get it because it seems like our fanbase is asking for a better recruit to pop each off season. I mean aren't we technically over recruiting TY if Keldon pops? If Chris pops should we stop recriting PGs for 2 years? IMO there is no such thing as over recruiting. I am no Coach K fan but he probably thought Grayson was gone and was thrown off by him coming back. And the games I saw I wasn't impressed at all with Thornton............ I think this is a very good question, actually, I would be curious to hear other people's thoughts. I always thought of "recruiting over" as this type of situation: Team recruits Player X in high school. Player X turns out to not be that good. Team recruits Player Y at the same position to fulfill the same role, from the same class. I mean, when guys are in different classes, how can it be "recruiting over"? Is a staff expected to stop recruiting at a position simply because someone highly skilled is already there? I mean, at a school like Georgetown or Villanova, the roster tends to be stable so it's easy to make a decision like that. In contrast, for a one-and-done type of school like Duke, it seems like that type of recruiting is pretty common. For example, is recruiting Mulmore and Pryor "recruiting over" Campbell? I suppose it would be since they're in the same class. I would genuinely be interested in how others define that term, especially our resident recruiting gurus. Well it's a totally different discussion when you have the pick of the litter like Duke does. Does think there's much sense in comparing our recruiting to theirs. They have their pick of kids that are born Dukies and they leverage that to recruit the best talent and then end up being less loyal to the player.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 11:38:31 GMT -5
Can someone please explain to me what is meant by over recruiting a player? I don't quite get it because it seems like our fanbase is asking for a better recruit to pop each off season. I mean aren't we technically over recruiting TY if Keldon pops? If Chris pops should we stop recriting PGs for 2 years? IMO there is no such thing as over recruiting. I am no Coach K fan but he probably thought Grayson was gone and was thrown off by him coming back. And the games I saw I wasn't impressed at all with Thornton............ Everybody recruits players at similar positions but to me it's when you recruit a player at a similar position and you go to a current kid on your roster and tell him his playing time will be significantly reduced or Not exist as a result...
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Apr 11, 2016 12:02:14 GMT -5
Can someone please explain to me what is meant by over recruiting a player? I don't quite get it because it seems like our fanbase is asking for a better recruit to pop each off season. I mean aren't we technically over recruiting TY if Keldon pops? If Chris pops should we stop recriting PGs for 2 years? IMO there is no such thing as over recruiting. I am no Coach K fan but he probably thought Grayson was gone and was thrown off by him coming back. And the games I saw I wasn't impressed at all with Thornton............ Everybody recruits players at similar positions but to me it's when you recruit a player at a similar position and you go to a current kid on your roster and tell him his playing time will be significantly reduced or Not exist as a result... I think that this is the important distinction to be made. A kid who has been told he has essentially been replaced and will see little to no time or even that he will not have a scholarship next season because the school is over the limit should not have any transfer restrictions and should be able to play elsewhere immediately. I would go much farther than this, but do not believe that the college basketball universe is quite ready for free agency for the players, even though it exists for coaches, professors and administrators.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Apr 11, 2016 12:09:16 GMT -5
Don't sit up at night waiting for the Dickie V expose on this; it would jeopardize his monthly K check from Durham. Agree with others, coaches recruit over players all the time. Convincing a kid to reclassify and leave school early THEN doing it is sleazy. Just don't expect Dickie V to make that connection.
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Post by goyahoya69 on Apr 11, 2016 12:11:15 GMT -5
unfortunately, i wish kids knew what they were getting themselves into. when they decide to go to the handful of blue bloods like duke, kentucky, unc, kansas, they need to understand that those schools pretty much have their pick of any player they want. they will constantly get recruited over there, it's just the nature of the beast. personally, unless i were a top 5 high school player, i wouldnt go to these schools out of fear that their programs would give up on me way too quickly. and when i say top 5, i dont mean by any rankings site - when youre that good, youve been to many camps, all star games, aau tournaments, etc. you know who youre better than, worse than, and on par with.
i understand that going to these historic programs are every kid's dreams, but if i had a son who was a 5 star prospect, i'd encourage him to look more closely at the 2nd tier of schools: gtown, nova, notre dame, baylor, oklahoma, michigan, etc. it's important to not have too much pressure on you to succeed in the first 2 years on the court. not every 5-star kid gets drafted. need to put yourself in the position to succeed overall, not just on the court.
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hoyazeke
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Post by hoyazeke on Apr 11, 2016 13:18:48 GMT -5
Can someone please explain to me what is meant by over recruiting a player? I don't quite get it because it seems like our fanbase is asking for a better recruit to pop each off season. I mean aren't we technically over recruiting TY if Keldon pops? If Chris pops should we stop recriting PGs for 2 years? IMO there is no such thing as over recruiting. I am no Coach K fan but he probably thought Grayson was gone and was thrown off by him coming back. And the games I saw I wasn't impressed at all with Thornton............ Everybody recruits players at similar positions but to me it's when you recruit a player at a similar position and you go to a current kid on your roster and tell him his playing time will be significantly reduced or Not exist as a result... YaBoy your example is not recruiting over. The kid has the opportunity to work his butt off for PT. I think it's only recruiting over if the kid's scholly is yanked. If you are 5* and the coach brings in another the next year at your position....go to work and make him earn your spot. I tell my 13yr old all the time, coaches want to win. If you are good enough the coach will play you.....
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 11, 2016 14:18:47 GMT -5
Strange, Duke Vitale never seemed bothered when every other school has them.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Apr 11, 2016 14:37:33 GMT -5
I would go much farther than this, but do not believe that the college basketball universe is quite ready for free agency for the players, even though it exists for coaches, professors and administrators. Dealing with transfers is a difficult situation. I can understand the arguments in favor of giving kids "free agency" for transfers, especially in situations where a coaching change occurs or some particularly extenuating situation. While understandable, I think allowing total transfer freedom would be a disaster for college basketball. Practically, if players could transfer with no strings attached, you would see coaches aggressively pursuing other players, and it would introduce a huge element of uncertainty to the game. You could also have situations with mass exoduses, which would also be bad for the game (even if it was good for each individual). That's what makes it a tough situation. I also think those types of rules would only reward the blue bloods and/or shady recruiters even more because they are the ones who would be willing to go to greater lengths to get the people they want. For those reasons, I generally do support a fairly high level of restriction on transfers. Like I said, there may be some circumstances where it's appropriate, but I think that anything resembling free agency would be a huge mistake. [And as a side note, even under free agency rules in professional sports, players are restricted by the rules and contracts from simple moving at will at any time. I am sure any system in college basketball would likely have restrictions, as well, but I just don't see an easy way to do it in a supposed "amateur" sport.]
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Apr 11, 2016 14:53:04 GMT -5
FWIW, LA Times today said Thornton wants to be closer to home.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 14:58:38 GMT -5
Everybody recruits players at similar positions but to me it's when you recruit a player at a similar position and you go to a current kid on your roster and tell him his playing time will be significantly reduced or Not exist as a result... YaBoy your example is not recruiting over. The kid has the opportunity to work his butt off for PT. I think it's only recruiting over if the kid's scholly is yanked. If you are 5* and the coach brings in another the next year at your position....go to work and make him earn your spot. I tell my 13yr old all the time, coaches want to win. If you are good enough the coach will play you..... You're a good father but a lot of kids don't see it that way unfortunately.. IMO it is, the difference here is the coach telling you in exit meeting your playing time will be reduced or non existent. If a coach tells you that in a exit meeting I think most kids would take that as better find somewhere to play because you're not playing here. If a kid is scared of competition at his position and leaves as a result that's totally different imo
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Apr 11, 2016 15:14:52 GMT -5
I would go much farther than this, but do not believe that the college basketball universe is quite ready for free agency for the players, even though it exists for coaches, professors and administrators. Dealing with transfers is a difficult situation. I can understand the arguments in favor of giving kids "free agency" for transfers, especially in situations where a coaching change occurs or some particularly extenuating situation. While understandable, I think allowing total transfer freedom would be a disaster for college basketball. Practically, if players could transfer with no strings attached, you would see coaches aggressively pursuing other players, and it would introduce a huge element of uncertainty to the game. You could also have situations with mass exoduses, which would also be bad for the game (even if it was good for each individual). That's what makes it a tough situation. I also think those types of rules would only reward the blue bloods and/or shady recruiters even more because they are the ones who would be willing to go to greater lengths to get the people they want. For those reasons, I generally do support a fairly high level of restriction on transfers. Like I said, there may be some circumstances where it's appropriate, but I think that anything resembling free agency would be a huge mistake. [And as a side note, even under free agency rules in professional sports, players are restricted by the rules and contracts from simple moving at will at any time. I am sure any system in college basketball would likely have restrictions, as well, but I just don't see an easy way to do it in a supposed "amateur" sport.] Believe me I understand the arguments for maintaining some sort of restriction on the transfer of players. I understand the potential impact on college basketball. However, the so-called non-revenue sports have free transfers and it can work with some reasonable restrictions. For example, if a coach leaves, no restrictions. If a player has his scholarship yanked, no restrictions. If a player has graduated, no restrictions. Also, a coach should be allowed to let a player leave and be immediately eligible at least at non-conference schools. That is not allowed now as the coaches cannot waive the transfer rules. That is the low hanging fruit, I know, but at least it is a start. Many of us continue to think of college basketball as what it was and not what it has become-- a massive financial enterprise which subsidizes the universities who are successful. It is also an enterprise where several national programs now essentially "rent" players for 1-2 years with little regard for their education. This in turn encourages kids with little interest in education to attend at least nominally while really just preparing for a life in professional sports afterwards. I also know that all each kid gets is a one year contract and there is nothing legally that prohibits a coach from pulling that scholarship at the end of the year. Interesting that these one year contracts are supplemented by NCAA and conference rules that operate as non-compete restrictions by forcing the player to sit out a year, unless the kid can find a loophole to justify a different result. I'll drop the subject because most do not want to see free agency of any sort in college basketball, but I strongly suspect the issue is not going away.
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Hoyas4Ever
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A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Apr 11, 2016 16:18:45 GMT -5
My Bro Code For "Being Recruited Over"
IMO, there are 2 types of "recruiting over" in today's college basketball recruiting.
1. "Recruited over" is either when you bring in or try to bring in multiple players that play the same position(s) in the same class. A recent Georgetown example was the Dickerson, Derrickson, Govan, Skal Labissierre, and Ivan Rabb recruitment process. Now we really don't know why Dickerson decommited from Georgetown but it's an easy assumption for Hoyas fans to make that Dickerson decommited because he felt the staff was attempting to recruit over him after receiving a commitment from Govan and continue to pursue Skal Labissierre and Ivan Rabb all in the same recruiting class. To me that is a clear example of being "recruited over". Other examples of players that have been recruited over would be Javin DeLaurier at Duke and Sacha Killeya-Jones at Kentucky.
2. Another example is when a program brings in a recruit in one class that has started college but has yet to start his freshman season and they have actively recruited and signed an extremely high rated player that plays your same position in the next class and the program is not loosing a player at the same position to graduation. *IMO this rule only applies to the PG & Post positions because most programs now only really identity 3 player positions PG, WING, POST and the wings can be interchangeable players that can play a combination of what used to be known as the SG/SF/PF positions. Programs that are known for playing 2 PG's at the same time like Villanova or 2 Post players like Xavier has recently are exempt as well because that is part of your programs profile. *Also with this rule, schools who target and market themselves as 1 & Done programs are exempt and the recruits should Proceed With Caution knowing that if you don't succeed as a freshman and advance to the professional level your replacement is more then likely joining the program and coming for your minutes and job.
Based on my definition, bring in Tyler Foster and continuing to recruit and hopefully getting Keldon Johnson would not be recruiting over because they can play on the floor at the same time. Keldon wouldn't necessarily be taking minutes away from Tyler.
What I think defines be "recruited over" is if the player(s) the program brings in with you or after you are going to take significant playing time away from you.
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Hoyas4Ever
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A Wise Man Once Told Me Don't Argue With Fools....
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Post by Hoyas4Ever on Apr 11, 2016 16:43:27 GMT -5
Dealing with transfers is a difficult situation. I can understand the arguments in favor of giving kids "free agency" for transfers, especially in situations where a coaching change occurs or some particularly extenuating situation. While understandable, I think allowing total transfer freedom would be a disaster for college basketball. Practically, if players could transfer with no strings attached, you would see coaches aggressively pursuing other players, and it would introduce a huge element of uncertainty to the game. You could also have situations with mass exoduses, which would also be bad for the game (even if it was good for each individual). That's what makes it a tough situation. I also think those types of rules would only reward the blue bloods and/or shady recruiters even more because they are the ones who would be willing to go to greater lengths to get the people they want. For those reasons, I generally do support a fairly high level of restriction on transfers. Like I said, there may be some circumstances where it's appropriate, but I think that anything resembling free agency would be a huge mistake. [And as a side note, even under free agency rules in professional sports, players are restricted by the rules and contracts from simple moving at will at any time. I am sure any system in college basketball would likely have restrictions, as well, but I just don't see an easy way to do it in a supposed "amateur" sport.] Believe me I understand the arguments for maintaining some sort of restriction on the transfer of players. I understand the potential impact on college basketball. However, the so-called non-revenue sports have free transfers and it can work with some reasonable restrictions. For example, if a coach leaves, no restrictions. If a player has his scholarship yanked, no restrictions. If a player has graduated, no restrictions. Also, a coach should be allowed to let a player leave and be immediately eligible at least at non-conference schools. That is not allowed now as the coaches cannot waive the transfer rules. That is the low hanging fruit, I know, but at least it is a start. Many of us continue to think of college basketball as what it was and not what it has become-- a massive financial enterprise which subsidizes the universities who are successful. It is also an enterprise where several national programs now essentially "rent" players for 1-2 years with little regard for their education. This in turn encourages kids with little interest in education to attend at least nominally while really just preparing for a life in professional sports afterwards. I also know that all each kid gets is a one year contract and there is nothing legally that prohibits a coach from pulling that scholarship at the end of the year. Interesting that these one year contracts are supplemented by NCAA and conference rules that operate as non-compete restrictions by forcing the player to sit out a year, unless the kid can find a loophole to justify a different result. I'll drop the subject because most do not want to see free agency of any sort in college basketball, but I strongly suspect the issue is not going away. I agree with a lot of what you said here. One of the NCAA's main reasons why they force transfers who haven't graduated yet to sit out an academic year besides the competitive chaos that would ensue, is to keep student athletes on track to graduate. When you transfer from university to university, the school your going to doesn't always except all your completed credits from your previous institution and thus you could fall of track to graduate on time. I see it as more of a Division 2 issue since most Division 1 student athletes are attending school almost year round now with summer school being pretty much required and tied in with summer workouts. The summer school can and has been used as a tool to not only keep student athletes on track to graduate but as we have seen in certain circumstances allows for student athletes to graduate early with as much as 2 years of eligibility left depending on that particular athletes eligibilit sircumstances. Division 2 schools don't require or even have team summer workouts and thus don't require student athletes to attend summer school.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Apr 11, 2016 20:39:09 GMT -5
Green has had a big start to his Sr. season, would have liked to see the staff get involved.. D'mitrik Trice is my next hope for 2016.. He picked up an offer from Wisconsin last week also..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2016 15:29:09 GMT -5
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Post by goyahoya69 on Apr 13, 2016 11:12:20 GMT -5
what the .. ?
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Post by goyahoya69 on Apr 13, 2016 11:12:47 GMT -5
if it's the son of who i think it is....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 11:17:37 GMT -5
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