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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 2:29:35 GMT -5
I think by next year White will be fine at any position on the floor besides the 5.. Also with a lineup like that think it’s most likely you would see zone which could be very effective with all that length on the floor...
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Talos
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Post by Talos on Jan 22, 2015 11:14:15 GMT -5
While it would not be my first choice, I am curious why you don't think Paul White could not play the one or the two. His ability to bring the ball up the court appears to be at least as good as Jon Wallace. I love White defensively, but man, White against a 2 scares me, much less against someone like Billy Garrett or Rysheed Jordan. He can use his length to some extent, but I think that's a horrible mismatch. Also agree with the other poster that the handle would not be great against 1 and 2s. And neither would the dribble drive. Although his post game would be strong. In short, I can actually see him bringing the ball up at times, but the other parts of the game ... I just don't know that he can play the full role of the 2. Could be wrong. Don't forget that White guarded Mudiay in high school and did very well. And imo, Mudiay is more explosive than Garrett or Jordan. I wouldn't have believed White could check Mudiay unless I had seen it myself. On the other hand, I don't want White exclusively playing the 1 or 2 either. But I do think he can fill in at either position and do very well.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 22, 2015 11:36:12 GMT -5
I love White defensively, but man, White against a 2 scares me, much less against someone like Billy Garrett or Rysheed Jordan. He can use his length to some extent, but I think that's a horrible mismatch. Also agree with the other poster that the handle would not be great against 1 and 2s. And neither would the dribble drive. Although his post game would be strong. In short, I can actually see him bringing the ball up at times, but the other parts of the game ... I just don't know that he can play the full role of the 2. Could be wrong. Don't forget that White guarded Mudiay in high school and did very well. And imo, Mudiay is more explosive than Garrett or Jordan. I wouldn't have believed White could check Mudiay unless I had seen it myself. On the other hand, I don't want White exclusively playing the 1 or 2 either. But I do think he can fill in at either position and do very well. I saw that, too, and that's one reason why I was a huge Paul White fan even before he came. But that was part of a quarter, in high school ball, with high school coaches and refs. Let me put it this way: for me, Paul White at guard is not something I'd feel comfortable counting on for next year. Try it? Sure. But man, I'd still be looking for another guard right now. It might not be Reaves, but it would be someone.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 12:02:00 GMT -5
Paul White can handle the ball better than Reaves so really not understanding the argument. Just because someone has guard height and has a G next to their name doesn’t make them have guard skills… Paul can absolutely play some Guard for us. He wouldn’t be exclusively at the 1 or 2 obviously with LJ DSR and Tre already commanding minutes there so I guess I just don’t get the argument.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 22, 2015 12:33:52 GMT -5
Paul White can handle the ball better than Reaves so really not understanding the argument. Just because someone has guard height and has a G next to their name doesn’t make them have guard skills… Paul can absolutely play some Guard for us. He wouldn’t be exclusively at the 1 or 2 obviously with LJ DSR and Tre already commanding minutes there so I guess I just don’t get the argument. I'm not arguing for Reaves. I have no thoughts about him except I'd bet we probably backed off earlier. This conversation is only happening here out of chance. We have three guards for next year. Are you willing to have White almost exclusively as a guard next year? While a healthy DSR, Peak and Campbell certainly can take the bulk of the 80 guard minutes (30-30-20 perhaps), an injury or other loss of a player suddenly puts most or all of White's minutes at a guard spot. I just don't see it. He's going to have to guard some players who will abuse him defensively and he will face players who will make him struggle with the dribble. I don't necessarily want to take a player who the staff thinks will be worse than White at G next year, but surely everyone can recognize the risk of Paul White being fourth on the depth chart?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 13:02:01 GMT -5
Paul White can handle the ball better than Reaves so really not understanding the argument. Just because someone has guard height and has a G next to their name doesn’t make them have guard skills… Paul can absolutely play some Guard for us. He wouldn’t be exclusively at the 1 or 2 obviously with LJ DSR and Tre already commanding minutes there so I guess I just don’t get the argument. I'm not arguing for Reaves. I have no thoughts about him except I'd bet we probably backed off earlier. This conversation is only happening here out of chance. We have three guards for next year. Are you willing to have White almost exclusively as a guard next year? While a healthy DSR, Peak and Campbell certainly can take the bulk of the 80 guard minutes (30-30-20 perhaps), an injury or other loss of a player suddenly puts most or all of White's minutes at a guard spot. I just don't see it. He's going to have to guard some players who will abuse him defensively and he will face players who will make him struggle with the dribble. I don't necessarily want to take a player who the staff thinks will be worse than White at G next year, but surely everyone can recognize the risk of Paul White being fourth on the depth chart? Thank you for Clarifying SF I feel you, but those same guards have to guard him as well. If your going to put your 6’2 guard on Paul give him the ball freethrow line extended of the catch and let him go to work. He can either shoot over the top, back down, or take them off the dribble. At 6’8 he doesn’t have to dribble through smaller guards 90ft from the basket, he can simply pass over the top. I’ve seen him guard explosive PG’s and SG’s previously so not too worried. From Mudiay to Cliff Alexander to Freshman season I haven’t seen him get abused on Defense by anybody so I can’t assume it would happen based on his track record. IMO He’s smart enough to use his length and not play up on Ball handlers ala Greg or Otto. Side note but The players being mentioned as possible additions Johnson and Ellison aren’t better ball handlers than Paul either IMO. It’s more likely that that they would be behind him in the depth chart regardless so even with those signings he would still be 4th..Regarding injury the same could be said at Center imo. I agree not ideal but not many options out there either
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 22, 2015 13:30:57 GMT -5
I'm not arguing for Reaves. I have no thoughts about him except I'd bet we probably backed off earlier. This conversation is only happening here out of chance. We have three guards for next year. Are you willing to have White almost exclusively as a guard next year? While a healthy DSR, Peak and Campbell certainly can take the bulk of the 80 guard minutes (30-30-20 perhaps), an injury or other loss of a player suddenly puts most or all of White's minutes at a guard spot. I just don't see it. He's going to have to guard some players who will abuse him defensively and he will face players who will make him struggle with the dribble. I don't necessarily want to take a player who the staff thinks will be worse than White at G next year, but surely everyone can recognize the risk of Paul White being fourth on the depth chart? Thank you for Clarifying SF I feel you, but those same guards have to guard him as well. If your going to put your 6’2 guard on Paul give him the ball freethrow line extended of the catch and let him go to work. He can either shoot over the top, back down, or take them off the dribble. At 6’8 he doesn’t have to dribble through smaller guards 90ft from the basket, he can simply pass over the top. I’ve seen him guard explosive PG’s and SG’s previously so not too worried. From Mudiay to Cliff Alexander to Freshman season I haven’t seen him get abused on Defense by anybody so I can’t assume it would happen based on his track record. IMO He’s smart enough to use his length and not play up on Ball handlers ala Greg or Otto. Side note but The players being mentioned as possible additions Johnson and Ellison aren’t better ball handlers than Paul either IMO. It’s more likely that that they would be behind him in the depth chart regardless so even with those signings he would still be 4th..Regarding injury the same could be said at Center imo. I agree not ideal but not many options out there either Ha! People think I'm a JTIII-homer but you've hit upon two of my personal critiques of his style/effectiveness. One, while I'm totally on board with a read and react offense that teaches the players to make decisions ... we don't do a good job of exploiting mismatches. Just terrible, really. If White plays 2 guard for extended time next year, I hope we post him up at least five times a game, but I bet it doesn't happen. The other one is his weird inability to recruit some pretty high ranked players but it feels like he always struggles to fill out the rosters. Perhaps every team has this, but we rarely have quality depth. We're going into next year with very few options at center (and no proven options) and three guards (four if you are right). I don't know if it is philosophy, bad luck or style, but I firmly believe the lack of big man depth has hurt this team more than anything in the Wright/Freeman era on. We had no playable backups to Monroe and Vaughn (and Vaughn should not have been starting); Julian Vaughn was our best big the next year -- Julian Vaughn! A year of Sims and Porter and nothing. A year of Porter and nothing. A half year of Smith. And so on. I'd hate to see us lose a player next year and wonder about this group of forwards. But you're right: we shouldn't reach for someone who we think has very little chance of contributing in the short to medium term. But then again, perhaps if we had another freshman guard in the last couple of years we wouldn't be worried now.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 22, 2015 13:39:19 GMT -5
We need to add another guard to the class of 2015. We need him for next season, and the three seasons following. My bet is JT3 and staff know this and will get it done.
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Post by aleutianhoya on Jan 22, 2015 13:46:19 GMT -5
Thank you for Clarifying SF I feel you, but those same guards have to guard him as well. If your going to put your 6’2 guard on Paul give him the ball freethrow line extended of the catch and let him go to work. He can either shoot over the top, back down, or take them off the dribble. At 6’8 he doesn’t have to dribble through smaller guards 90ft from the basket, he can simply pass over the top. I’ve seen him guard explosive PG’s and SG’s previously so not too worried. From Mudiay to Cliff Alexander to Freshman season I haven’t seen him get abused on Defense by anybody so I can’t assume it would happen based on his track record. IMO He’s smart enough to use his length and not play up on Ball handlers ala Greg or Otto. Side note but The players being mentioned as possible additions Johnson and Ellison aren’t better ball handlers than Paul either IMO. It’s more likely that that they would be behind him in the depth chart regardless so even with those signings he would still be 4th..Regarding injury the same could be said at Center imo. I agree not ideal but not many options out there either Ha! People think I'm a JTIII-homer but you've hit upon two of my personal critiques of his style/effectiveness. One, while I'm totally on board with a read and react offense that teaches the players to make decisions ... we don't do a good job of exploiting mismatches. Just terrible, really. If White plays 2 guard for extended time next year, I hope we post him up at least five times a game, but I bet it doesn't happen. The other one is his weird inability to recruit some pretty high ranked players but it feels like he always struggles to fill out the rosters. Perhaps every team has this, but we rarely have quality depth. We're going into next year with very few options at center (and no proven options) and three guards (four if you are right). I don't know if it is philosophy, bad luck or style, but I firmly believe the lack of big man depth has hurt this team more than anything in the Wright/Freeman era on. We had no playable backups to Monroe and Vaughn (and Vaughn should not have been starting); Julian Vaughn was our best big the next year -- Julian Vaughn! A year of Sims and Porter and nothing. A year of Porter and nothing. A half year of Smith. And so on. I'd hate to see us lose a player next year and wonder about this group of forwards. But you're right: we shouldn't reach for someone who we think has very little chance of contributing in the short to medium term. But then again, perhaps if we had another freshman guard in the last couple of years we wouldn't be worried now. I generally agree on the mismatches, but not with respect to the post. He's absolutely shown willingness to exploit mismatches in the post -- and let's not forget that doing so is somewhat foreign to Princeton principles. The big setting the backscreen for the guard who then posts is actually something we do a lot -- Peak posts up that way a fair amount (and Jason Clark used to also). I don't recall seeing Peak get the ball on that action, but it's part of the offense, and I have to believe if someone with a mismatch were doing it, they would get the ball. I suppose we'll see. Where he rarely exploits mismatches is on the perimeter. As far as recruiting bigs goes, I suspect virtually every team outside of the very top tier has the same issue if you look at their roster. There just aren't that many of them out there! At least in recent years, he did have two highly regarded big recruits in Lubick and Adams. Neither panned out, of course. You can blame the first on III as either a recruiting miss or a lack of development or both, but obviously you can't pin the second on him.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Jan 22, 2015 16:15:00 GMT -5
While it would not be my first choice, I am curious why you don't think Paul White could not play the one or the two. His ability to bring the ball up the court appears to be at least as good as Jon Wallace. I love White defensively, but man, White against a 2 scares me, much less against someone like Billy Garrett or Rysheed Jordan. He can use his length to some extent, but I think that's a horrible mismatch. Also agree with the other poster that the handle would not be great against 1 and 2s. And neither would the dribble drive. Although his post game would be strong. In short, I can actually see him bringing the ball up at times, but the other parts of the game ... I just don't know that he can play the full role of the 2. Could be wrong. If Paul is playing spot duty as a point forward, the opposing team's 3 would probably still guard him, not the 1 or 2. The opposing 1 and 2 would be guarding DSR, Campbell, Peak, or maybe Reggie if he earns playing time.
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Post by eastcoastteddy58 on Jan 22, 2015 17:20:48 GMT -5
Thank you for Clarifying SF I feel you, but those same guards have to guard him as well. If your going to put your 6’2 guard on Paul give him the ball freethrow line extended of the catch and let him go to work. He can either shoot over the top, back down, or take them off the dribble. At 6’8 he doesn’t have to dribble through smaller guards 90ft from the basket, he can simply pass over the top. I’ve seen him guard explosive PG’s and SG’s previously so not too worried. From Mudiay to Cliff Alexander to Freshman season I haven’t seen him get abused on Defense by anybody so I can’t assume it would happen based on his track record. IMO He’s smart enough to use his length and not play up on Ball handlers ala Greg or Otto. Side note but The players being mentioned as possible additions Johnson and Ellison aren’t better ball handlers than Paul either IMO. It’s more likely that that they would be behind him in the depth chart regardless so even with those signings he would still be 4th..Regarding injury the same could be said at Center imo. I agree not ideal but not many options out there either Ha! People think I'm a JTIII-homer but you've hit upon two of my personal critiques of his style/effectiveness. One, while I'm totally on board with a read and react offense that teaches the players to make decisions ... we don't do a good job of exploiting mismatches. Just terrible, really. If White plays 2 guard for extended time next year, I hope we post him up at least five times a game, but I bet it doesn't happen. The other one is his weird inability to recruit some pretty high ranked players but it feels like he always struggles to fill out the rosters. Perhaps every team has this, but we rarely have quality depth. We're going into next year with very few options at center (and no proven options) and three guards (four if you are right). I don't know if it is philosophy, bad luck or style, but I firmly believe the lack of big man depth has hurt this team more than anything in the Wright/Freeman era on. We had no playable backups to Monroe and Vaughn (and Vaughn should not have been starting); Julian Vaughn was our best big the next year -- Julian Vaughn! A year of Sims and Porter and nothing. A year of Porter and nothing. A half year of Smith. And so on. I'd hate to see us lose a player next year and wonder about this group of forwards. But you're right: we shouldn't reach for someone who we think has very little chance of contributing in the short to medium term. But then again, perhaps if we had another freshman guard in the last couple of years we wouldn't be worried now. No playable backups is a very good point, that singular comment brings to mind Vernon Macklin and Vernon Macklin IMO is where all of this began at the 5. We have not recovered adequately at the 5 position until this year, and I say that with my fingers crossed, that we cannot and should not play Hayes against a top 10 team until he is ready to contribute. I'm still hoping that Hayes turns out to be another Sims, if only for the development aspect here at Big Man U, but as of late Big Man U is starting to look a lot like SF U. I'm not complaining I'm just stating fact. In a perfect world we would have depth at all positions but kids don't want to sit and watch they want to play. Now as far as the 2015 recruitment class, I was hoping for a 6'10-7 ft PF/C to help ease Govan's transition into college play but instead we gotta 6'8 true PF. I fear that JTIII and staff will have to rely on another good transfer to fill the PG/SG void if they are as concerned about next years depth as we are but IMO, 2015 recruitment class is a wrap. We will more then likely save the scholarships for 2016. Now can someone answer this question, what do you think about the possibility of Riyan Williams getting minutes?
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Jan 22, 2015 17:54:52 GMT -5
I just don't see it. He's going to have to guard some players who will abuse him defensively and he will face players who will make him struggle with the dribble. SF, I agree that roster balance is the key and talented balance is the best, of course. As to White, he's proven himself on defense against talented players at his level and he's obviously adjusting to the college level. To me, that's not a concern. As to offense and "struggle with the dribble", I don't get this. First, White has a pretty good handle for any height right now and I'm sure it will get better. I'll go further and say he has a better handle than various guards we've had under JT3. Second, our offense does not require guards with yoyos for handle (although of course it would be preferable). Look at the way we break the press now. Remember all those games we had struggling against the press? It took JT3 some time adjusting to not having guards with great handle and facing the press, but now we do it almost mechanically: some steps toward halfcourt then pass it back to the player on the other side who is diagonally 5 feet back, and so on until we cross halfcourt. It's the elemental 2-steps-forward-one-step-back press breaker. It took us almost 5 to 8 seconds to cross the line, but it's still ample time to set up our offense, but without the press getting the TO or going over the time limit. White's height is great for it. So, there's no desperate need for a yoyo to break the press because we can do it that way. Third, once we're on the other side, it's not like our guards dribble around the defense. We pass it around and probe with passing inside trying to find the best shot. Sure, it would be great to have a guard who could probe the inside with his dribble and come back out, pass it or score. But, in our half-court offense, no defender will be in a position to make White struggle with the dribble because it's not like he has to keep dribbling the ball around to run the offense. BTW, versus Villanova, Cope was dribbling around the perimeter as if there was nothing to it, so there's that too. This could lead to a follow-up discussion on ranking the preferred skills of a guard recruit (dribble, defense, shooting, passing, FT%, etc...). Another angle could be how good does a guard need to be in each of those skills to be a succesful Hoya and BE player (bad/average/good/excellent with defense/shooting/dribble/etc...). I will say the #1 skill for our guards is being able to put the ball though the hoop in whatever way. Our offense stumbles when there's an obvious 4v5 (for example with Rivers).
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