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Post by Ranch Dressing on Nov 10, 2013 23:26:16 GMT -5
Because we don't have Otto or Whitt and Josh may be really poor defensively.
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lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on Nov 10, 2013 23:26:54 GMT -5
ok have always wished for a FULL court press but this year smaller less lengthy guards.. less quickness in the back not so sure we can do it. our press worked BEST with greg whit AND otto out front that was deadly but this year coach might not ever do it . go hoyas beat wright state. at least THEY have to travel for this game and we DONT. rest up and hustle for forty minutes OR MORE.
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lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on Nov 10, 2013 23:27:58 GMT -5
oh ranch sorry you put that up while i was typing great minds think alike or at least like minds think alike go hoyas
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Nov 10, 2013 23:39:03 GMT -5
I'm confused why we can't be an elite defensive team when we were an elite defensive team a year ago with mostly the same players. Well first look at the starting line-up. We subbed Otto and Hopkins out for Rivera and Smith. As spastic and infuriating Hopkins is on offense, he was one of our best and most important defenders last year, and now the 5 is our biggest liability(as of the first game, which could end up being totally meaningless). Otto obviously was probably our best defender at the 3, and you are moving Jabril to guard the 3 position and moving Rivera to the two. Jabril is an excellent guard defender but when it gets to small forwards I'd say he's more average. So that right there is downgrading 3 defensive positions, making us smaller and slower, with the loss of one guy, and thats just the starting line-up. Bowen is a horrible defender at the moment and was our sixth man the other night, another downgrade. Then you have Cameron and Domingo, both currently need a lot of work on that end. On the bright side our post defense is stronger on the bench the bench than on the floor, but with the combinations being played our overall post defense is going to be worse than last year. A lot of this can be fixed with line-up of defensive scheme changes, so its too early to say anything for certain. However, while we have a lot of the same players, a lot of them will be playing different roles that will off-set some of the advantages we had last year. I think the rule changes will also hurt us as we did rely on physicality a bit too much defensively last year. Hopefully we can adjust and learn to hit free throws.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Nov 11, 2013 0:49:43 GMT -5
Because Josh Smith does not cover any ground in the zone and cannot play help defense or pick and roll in man. In the second half Oregon got a lot of 10 to 12 foot open shots around the foul line or on the baseline. Those shots should not be open and they would not be uncontested with Moses or Hopkins in that spot in the zone, but Smith is anchored and can't get there to deny the pass or contest the shot.
We also are not as long without Otto or Whittington. Long wings can cheat in to deny a passing or driving lane and still recover to contest a shot on the perimeter. The guys we have on the wings now cannot contest a 3 point shot from 5 feet inside the arc the way that Otto could.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Nov 11, 2013 9:01:23 GMT -5
I believe Wright State has a lot of key guys out with injuries right now. Might be playing them at a good time as they will only get better throughout the year. Need to head to Rico with a W under our belt and somehow pull that thing off. That would put us right back in the early rankings.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Nov 11, 2013 9:28:30 GMT -5
I think people are overreacting from one game on our defensive potential. No Joshua isn't a great defender, but doesn't mean we cannot find a way to be a good defensive team. I really don't think it was all that bad. Joshua won't be in there at all times. I thought Hopkins played great against Oregon and I think we'll be just fine. We're not going to be top 5 defensively. Probably not top 10, but I think we can maintain a top 25 defensive ranking and I think our offense will be top 25 as well.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Nov 11, 2013 9:55:42 GMT -5
We shall see, but the coaching staff needs to plan for protecting against that 5-footer. Josh didn't look like he could contest it. A player like McDerm. will have a lot of fun against us if he is not guarded 5 ft from the hoop. After Josh's performance, every good coach is taking note on how to play us.
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Nov 11, 2013 11:34:15 GMT -5
We shall see, but the coaching staff needs to plan for protecting against that 5-footer. Josh didn't look like he could contest it. A player like McDerm. will have a lot of fun against us if he is not guarded 5 ft from the hoop. After Josh's performance, every good coach is taking note on how to play us. 1) You assume joshua will not improve defensively through out the year. 2) You assume every team has a player who can consistently hit that shot. They don't The mid range shot is probably the least used shot in the game. Sure McDrermott could eat us a live there but most other teams can't hit that shot in the middle of the zone consistently. 3) If Josh is hurting us too much on the defensive end then coach can work around that. If Hopkins can play the way he did against Oregon then we have plenty of options.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 11, 2013 11:34:34 GMT -5
I have been doing some thinking about our lineups. The real problem we have, both on offense and defense, is the traditional SF role. Otto Porter filled that role beautifully last year - he was both a force on offense and defense, and a great rebounder.
The problem is that we really have no replacement. Trawick is essentially starting in that role, but that does not work for a few reasons. First, given that we only have three guards, you cannot keep all three in all game. Second, I think Trawick's abilities are best suited for defending against guards. This is where we really miss Whittington.
Assuming Hopkins shows improvement from last year, is there any way Hopkins could slide into the SF role, even if only for limited time? I suppose that would be alongside Lubick and Smith, and you would be playing zone defense. Do you think Hopkins would be athletic enough to fill that role, in a limited capacity?
I admit this is crazy thinking and out of left field, I am just brain-storming ways to get around our hole at SF. The best option would be for Cameron/Domingo/Bowen to fill the role, but if none of those options pan out, we will need something other than a three-guard lineup.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 11:48:45 GMT -5
Yeah it’s not an easy fix but truthfully that’s how we played last year with Markel Dsr and Bril in the zone. Replacing Otto with Josh on D though makes it difficult, Otto did everything. I don’t see Cameron ever becoming a good defender, Domingo looks like he could have some potential to be ok but still learning. I mean if we’re being honest we are not going to be a great or even really good defensive team this year unless something unexpected happens. We just don’t have the elite foot speed, interchangeable parts, or athleticism at key position to become that. My thoughts are you have to play a contain style more than an attacking defense and try and make everybody score over the top. We should probably start a thread on Defense and Rebounding because those are going to be issues all year…lol I honestly don't get why folks are so worried about the teams defense or more to the point individuals defensive capabilities... The team was as bad as it could be defensively Friday but we all know Jabril, Markel, Hopkins, DSR & Nate can & will play better on defense. I'd rather see the staff tweak the line-up to be better on offense.. If you want to go bigger why not start Cameron at the 3 & Jabril @ the 2? Or if you want to go even bigger, how about starting Markel, Jabril, Cameron, Hopkins & Smith? Imo Cameron should be given an opportunity to prove himself.. If the Hoyas go man, what’s going to stop an opposing coach from putting Josh in PNR every time? If we go zone you flash a player free-throw line extended baseline to baseline just as Oregon did, 2 points… Too many slow footed players logging major minutes to be a really good defensive team IMO… Add to the fact that good defensive teams end the possession with a rebound, which we will struggle to do since we lack players with the ability to rebound out of their area. I expect us to give 110% and compete on every possession, and we will max out our abilities on that side. I just don’t see us being close to what we were last year, and not expecting it.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Nov 11, 2013 12:51:29 GMT -5
I honestly don't get why folks are so worried about the teams defense or more to the point individuals defensive capabilities... The team was as bad as it could be defensively Friday but we all know Jabril, Markel, Hopkins, DSR & Nate can & will play better on defense. I'd rather see the staff tweak the line-up to be better on offense.. If you want to go bigger why not start Cameron at the 3 & Jabril @ the 2? Or if you want to go even bigger, how about starting Markel, Jabril, Cameron, Hopkins & Smith? Imo Cameron should be given an opportunity to prove himself.. If the Hoyas go man, what’s going to stop an opposing coach from putting Josh in PNR every time? If we go zone you flash a player free-throw line extended baseline to baseline just as Oregon did, 2 points… Too many slow footed players logging major minutes to be a really good defensive team IMO… Add to the fact that good defensive teams end the possession with a rebound, which we will struggle to do since we lack players with the ability to rebound out of their area. This is why I say see how good you can be on offense.. I've been down on Hopkins playing the 4 this year but he looked really good playing with Josh. I'd look to get him more minutes at the 4 and have Nate back-up him & Josh. Folks talk about Domingo's mechanics all the time but Jabril's & Bowen's mechanics are just as bad and DSR isn't far ahead of them. All 6 of the 3's Jabril & Bowen took we're WIDE open looks and not one looked like it had a chance to go in. The 2 jumpers Hopkins took were wide open too. JT3 has to get Cameron a chance to see if he can be the elite shooter he's been in high school, this team is in desperate need of outside shooting. Even with the best schemes & execution the defense will have a lower ceiling tha in years past but the offense has potential imo.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Nov 11, 2013 14:07:21 GMT -5
We shall see, but the coaching staff needs to plan for protecting against that 5-footer. Josh didn't look like he could contest it. A player like McDerm. will have a lot of fun against us if he is not guarded 5 ft from the hoop. After Josh's performance, every good coach is taking note on how to play us. 1) You assume joshua will not improve defensively through out the year. 2) You assume every team has a player who can consistently hit that shot. They don't The mid range shot is probably the least used shot in the game. Sure McDrermott could eat us a live there but most other teams can't hit that shot in the middle of the zone consistently. 3) If Josh is hurting us too much on the defensive end then coach can work around that. If Hopkins can play the way he did against Oregon then we have plenty of options. 1. I don't assume that. The team and Josh will improve, as well as face less talented competition. 2. I don't assume that. Oregon played as if they had three or four players who could hit that shot consistently. Altman adjusted and went after that shot because it was wide open. I can see Creighton and MU adjusting too. We won't see many teams with such an offensive arsenal as Oregon throughout the season (way too early to know if O is that good as they showed against us). But, do we cross our fingers and hope we don't come across another hot team when it counts? The last NCAAs come to mind. 3. "We shall see, but the coaching staff needs to plan for protecting against that 5-footer."
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Post by wahoohoya on Nov 11, 2013 15:38:13 GMT -5
If the Hoyas go man, what’s going to stop an opposing coach from putting Josh in PNR every time? If we go zone you flash a player free-throw line extended baseline to baseline just as Oregon did, 2 points… Too many slow footed players logging major minutes to be a really good defensive team IMO… Add to the fact that good defensive teams end the possession with a rebound, which we will struggle to do since we lack players with the ability to rebound out of their area. I expect us to give 110% and compete on every possession, and we will max out our abilities on that side. I just don’t see us being close to what we were last year, and not expecting it. Have to agree here. Defense is certainly a team endeavor and any group with the proper focus and determination can be a decent defensive team - just a lot more difficult when you don't have great speed on the perimeter, athletic forwards that can cover a lot of ground, or a defensive minded center. You just can't overstate Otto's contribution to the team last year on the defensive side - he was the quarterback of the defense, constantly yelling at his teammates and getting them in the right positions and anticipating where to help out. Having Greg on this team would be huge - a guy with good defensive instincts that can fly around and cover a ton of ground can obviously make a big difference, but you still can't replace Otto's leadership skills on that side of the ball - that is what made that team an elite defensive team. I do think Josh will be a good rim protector and a better defensive rebounder than what he showed against Oregon (although I do worry about guys attacking him trying to draw fouls). Hopkins, Nate, and Moses are all capable defenders, but they are all foul prone - especially when they are forced to help out on defensive breakdowns. Jabril can certainly make plays on the defensive end, but I think the new rule changes will hurt him the most, as his natural defensive tendency was to put his hands/forearm on the offensive player in an attempt to slow them down. I can actually see a guy like Domingo being a solid defensive player - I thought he showed some interesting stuff against Oregon. One sequence in particular - he closed on a 3 point shooter in the corner pretty quickly without leaving his feet on the pump fake - basically forcing his guy to pass the ball. I think he also had a pretty good block if I remember correctly. I think he'll get up to speed quickly on the rotations as he starts to play more consistently. With all that said, I think we'll figure out how to be a decent defensive team. I just don't see us being a top 25 defensive team - at least until Greg returns in February (wishful thinking, I know). But I don't think we need to be a top 25 defensive team to have a very good year, as I think we have the potential to be a great offensive team. We have a true identity on the offensive side - get the ball to Josh and good things will happen. That in and of itself will reduce the frequency of aimless passing along the perimeter. As teams inevitably will have to double and triple team Josh to slow him down, that will open up a lot of looks for everybody else. Definitely excited for this season as I expect to see a much prettier brand of offensive basketball then what we have been accustomed to recently.
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jwp91
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Post by jwp91 on Nov 11, 2013 16:43:28 GMT -5
I'm confused why we can't be an elite defensive team when we were an elite defensive team a year ago with mostly the same players. It is a good question. I think that the loss of Porter and Whit reduce a lot of the length that made us quite a challenge in the 2-3 zone.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Nov 11, 2013 16:53:21 GMT -5
Last year, we started 4 players 6'8 + and until Whittington went out, our zone frequently featured that size. On top of it all, Porter was an excellent defensive player who brought out the best in everybody else when he was on the floor. The year before, in 2011-2012, we had Sims, plus Whittington, Porter, Lubick, and Hollis Thompson, all of whom were 6'8+.
Instead, our starting lineup is 6'2, 6'3, 6'5, 6'8, and a slow and somewhat immobile 6'10. That's a big structural difference that is going to make the zone a lot less effective. We will be in better shape next year when White, Copeland, etc. come in and increase our size again, but for this season, I just don't think we are large enough to play zone as effectively as we did last year.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Nov 11, 2013 17:12:40 GMT -5
Last year, we started 4 players 6'8 + and until Whittington went out, our zone frequently featured that size. On top of it all, Porter was an excellent defensive player who brought out the best in everybody else when he was on the floor. The year before, in 2011-2012, we had Sims, plus Whittington, Porter, Lubick, and Hollis Thompson, all of whom were 6'8+. Instead, our starting lineup is 6'2, 6'3, 6'5, 6'8, and a slow and somewhat immobile 6'10. That's a big structural difference that is going to make the zone a lot less effective. We will be in better shape next year when White, Copeland, etc. come in and increase our size again, but for this season, I just don't think we are large enough to play zone as effectively as we did last year. And we are not nearly quick enough to play man, so . . . ?
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Nov 11, 2013 18:01:17 GMT -5
So Smith needs to play several short shifts per half where he comes out on a stoppage before a defensive possession and comes back in on an offensive possession. If he ends up with 5 to 8 more possessions on offense than on defense while Moses and Hopkins have the extra defense possessions, that should be worth about 3 or 4 points per game.
JTIII did a great job of this in 2008 when Ewing Jr. and Rivers came in repeatedly on defensive possessions for Summers/Freeman and Wallace/Sapp. Ewing and Freeman played about the same minutes but Ewing ended up with many more defensive possessions and Freeman with many more offensive possessions.
In the backcourt/wing this year, the question is whether we have anyone on the bench who plays defense any better than DSR to switch o/d with him. The bigger guys to pair with Trawick on the wings of the zone have not shown the defensive prowess.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Nov 11, 2013 18:16:23 GMT -5
Last year, we started 4 players 6'8 + and until Whittington went out, our zone frequently featured that size. On top of it all, Porter was an excellent defensive player who brought out the best in everybody else when he was on the floor. The year before, in 2011-2012, we had Sims, plus Whittington, Porter, Lubick, and Hollis Thompson, all of whom were 6'8+. Instead, our starting lineup is 6'2, 6'3, 6'5, 6'8, and a slow and somewhat immobile 6'10. That's a big structural difference that is going to make the zone a lot less effective. We will be in better shape next year when White, Copeland, etc. come in and increase our size again, but for this season, I just don't think we are large enough to play zone as effectively as we did last year. Good points. A couple of thoughts though. Bowen and Trawick both play larger than their height. Trawick is somewhat more problemmatic because his physical play may be hampered by the new foul rules on bumping and hand checks. However, Bowen has the hops that are commn for much taller players and is in that regard no different than last year's use of Porter. Also, there are different variations of the zone that we can run that might lessen the impact of a smaller team. The issue is that the defense --and offense--will have to adjust to the players on the floor this year. Last year, with the shorter rotation and athletic players everywhere, this was not as great a need. Now the strengths of Moses are very different than those of Smith. The same is true for Lubick and Hopkins.
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lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on Nov 11, 2013 23:06:48 GMT -5
we will see need to HUSTLE THE WHOLE GAME or in trouble tough game go hoyas move move move and move on and move quickly BE QUICK BUT DONT HURRY .
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