EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 5, 2014 19:01:25 GMT -5
(1) A RS tag can be removed at any time during the season.. (2) He played 13 minutes in 11 OOC games.. (3) If JT3 wanted him to RS and he strongly objected, JT3 should have shown him the door.. Simple as that. So none of the missed shots, turn-overs, missed assignments that are made by other players mean anything? You'd go back to the fumbled pass by Hayes as the reason the team lost? You're missing my point. Of course, all of the negative plays mean something -- collectively they (in addition to the relative lack of positive plays) add up to why we lost. If the goal is to win the game (and for me, that's the goal), then the goal for every single second of the game is to maximize the chances for positive plays and minimize the chances for negative ones. So, for every single second of playing time, the coach has to decide which players give him the best chance to do that. I don't think that's particularly controversial. If you think Moses gives you a better chance than Hayes either generally or in a given situation, then Moses plays. And the same is true for Hayes. Now, that doesn't mean you need to shorten a rotation: you may believe that playing a "worse" player a few minutes will provide needed rest to a "better" player and the net positive for the game overall outweighs the negative for those minutes of rest. That's fine. But that's not the case with Moses (or Mikael or Nate) vs. Hayes. Moses doesn't need more rest. Or there may be situations where a particular player, who is generally worse than another player but better in one area that needs to be leveraged at that particular point, gets the nod. But I'm not sure that applies to Hayes vs. Moses either. It's not that Moses is good -- he's not -- it's that in JTIII's opinion, he always provides a better chance to win than does Hayes. As for your other points: (1) Yes a redshirt can be burned at any time, but if you know going into the year that you want five guys who can play the 4/5 (because you know one of the five is sure to give you limited minutes at best), then you're not going to redshirt one of them, on the off-chance you only need four. (2) I would love to have seen him play more, too. Unfortunately, we didn't have a ton of blow-out-type games where the outcome was not in doubt relatively early on. But, I certainly would have played him a bit more in the ones where we did. It's also possible, of course, that even in those limited minutes, JTIII didn't like what he saw. (3) I don't think it's all that plausible to begin with, but it certainly could have more of a discusion, rather than a demand. I get your point Ale, I just don't agree with it.. I'll try to explain my view this way, at the start of the year I wanted Domingo to get time over Bowen. They both were unknowns and I always like the younger kids if it's close. I don't ask to see Domingo play more any longer for 2 reasons.. (1) When Domingo has had chances to play early in games he's done little to nothing and I mean that literally.. sometimes he doesn't even move on offense.. (2) Bowen has gone out & produced consistently this year.. He took full advantage of his opportunity to play.. We continue to hear about Hayes on the board because Moses hasn't seized control of his chance the way AB has..
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 5, 2014 19:22:51 GMT -5
Does it matter? If he's the better player and this squad has very little room for error, you go with the better player. I'm asking a question... And I was answering it. The answer is Moses is the better player. All things considered, he gives us a better chance to win than does Hayes.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 5, 2014 19:24:14 GMT -5
You're missing my point. Of course, all of the negative plays mean something -- collectively they (in addition to the relative lack of positive plays) add up to why we lost. If the goal is to win the game (and for me, that's the goal), then the goal for every single second of the game is to maximize the chances for positive plays and minimize the chances for negative ones. So, for every single second of playing time, the coach has to decide which players give him the best chance to do that. I don't think that's particularly controversial. If you think Moses gives you a better chance than Hayes either generally or in a given situation, then Moses plays. And the same is true for Hayes. Now, that doesn't mean you need to shorten a rotation: you may believe that playing a "worse" player a few minutes will provide needed rest to a "better" player and the net positive for the game overall outweighs the negative for those minutes of rest. That's fine. But that's not the case with Moses (or Mikael or Nate) vs. Hayes. Moses doesn't need more rest. Or there may be situations where a particular player, who is generally worse than another player but better in one area that needs to be leveraged at that particular point, gets the nod. But I'm not sure that applies to Hayes vs. Moses either. It's not that Moses is good -- he's not -- it's that in JTIII's opinion, he always provides a better chance to win than does Hayes. As for your other points: (1) Yes a redshirt can be burned at any time, but if you know going into the year that you want five guys who can play the 4/5 (because you know one of the five is sure to give you limited minutes at best), then you're not going to redshirt one of them, on the off-chance you only need four. (2) I would love to have seen him play more, too. Unfortunately, we didn't have a ton of blow-out-type games where the outcome was not in doubt relatively early on. But, I certainly would have played him a bit more in the ones where we did. It's also possible, of course, that even in those limited minutes, JTIII didn't like what he saw. (3) I don't think it's all that plausible to begin with, but it certainly could have more of a discusion, rather than a demand. I get your point Ale, I just don't agree with it.. I'll try to explain my view this way, at the start of the year I wanted Domingo to get time over Bowen. They both were unknowns and I always like the younger kids if it's close. I don't ask to see Domingo play more any longer for 2 reasons.. (1) When Domingo has had chances to play early in games he's done little to nothing and I mean that literally.. sometimes he doesn't even move on offense.. (2) Bowen has gone out & produced consistently this year.. He took full advantage of his opportunity to play.. We continue to hear about Hayes on the board because Moses hasn't seized control of his chance the way AB has.. The glaring hole in that logic is the assumption that the ability level of Hayes and Moses is close. Not to mention that it was very clear early on that Bowen is a far better player than Domingo right now. The one major plus Domingo was supposed to bring, he apparently misplaced and has yet to find.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Feb 5, 2014 19:48:10 GMT -5
And I was answering it. The answer is Moses is the better player. All things considered, he gives us a better chance to win than does Hayes. I think he gives GU a better chance to win at the moment as well from the center spot maybe more than Hopkins. I don't know. I won't start the Hayes 5-10 minutes debate again.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 5, 2014 20:12:02 GMT -5
I get your point Ale, I just don't agree with it.. I'll try to explain my view this way, at the start of the year I wanted Domingo to get time over Bowen. They both were unknowns and I always like the younger kids if it's close. I don't ask to see Domingo play more any longer for 2 reasons.. (1) When Domingo has had chances to play early in games he's done little to nothing and I mean that literally.. sometimes he doesn't even move on offense.. (2) Bowen has gone out & produced consistently this year.. He took full advantage of his opportunity to play.. We continue to hear about Hayes on the board because Moses hasn't seized control of his chance the way AB has.. The glaring hole in that logic is the assumption that the ability level of Hayes and Moses is close. Not to mention that it was very clear early on that Bowen is a far better player than Domingo right now. The one major plus Domingo was supposed to bring, he apparently misplaced and has yet to find. As I said to Frazier we'll just have to agree to disagree...
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 5, 2014 20:16:34 GMT -5
Obviously, we'd all love for Hayes to be a viable option. The part I don't get is why people think he is when the entire coaching staff thinks he isn't. As Etomic said, agree to disagree.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 5, 2014 20:37:27 GMT -5
Obviously, we'd all love for Hayes to be a viable option. The part I don't get is why people think he is when the entire coaching staff thinks he isn't. As Etomic said, agree to disagree. Just when I was out, you pulled me back in!!! Hahaha I have never stated that Hayes "is" a viable option, I just think he could "possibly" be if given a chance.. My angst to see this get amped up each game I watch Moses go out there and produce minimal stats.. Last 4 games for Moses.. 76 minutes, 9pts, 16rbs, 5blks(4 in 1 game) and 1 assist..
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 5, 2014 20:46:12 GMT -5
I'm not really disagreeing with you Etomic when it comes to the angst part. I happen to believe that Hayes is THAT far behind Moses. Granted, all I have to go on is his lack of playing time as an indication. But, given the poor production out of Moses at times, you'd think that if it were close between the two and Moses picked up quick fouls, that Bradley would see a little time. My (bleak) opinion is that he's just that much behind in preparedness. Of course that prompts a whole bunch of other discussions but there's a whole offseason for that!!
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Feb 5, 2014 21:32:18 GMT -5
Obviously, we'd all love for Hayes to be a viable option. The part I don't get is why people think he is when the entire coaching staff thinks he isn't. As Etomic said, agree to disagree. Just when I was out, you pulled me back in!!! Hahaha I have never stated that Hayes "is" a viable option, I just think he could "possibly" be if given a chance.. My angst to see this get amped up each game I watch Moses go out there and produce minimal stats.. Last 4 games for Moses.. 76 minutes, 9pts, 16rbs, 5blks(4 in 1 game) and 1 assist.. Who said he's a viable option?
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Feb 5, 2014 21:34:38 GMT -5
I'm not really disagreeing with you Etomic when it comes to the angst part. I happen to believe that Hayes is THAT far behind Moses. Granted, all I have to go on is his lack of playing time as an indication. But, given the poor production out of Moses at times, you'd think that if it were close between the two and Moses picked up quick fouls, that Bradley would see a little time. My (bleak) opinion is that he's just that much behind in preparedness. Of course that prompts a whole bunch of other discussions but there's a whole offseason for that!! Does that mean that Domingo is THAT far behind Cameron? Because really, Cameron has essentially jacked up 3s. I like Cameron's game a lot though...he's not showing much of it yet
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 5, 2014 21:41:24 GMT -5
I'm not really disagreeing with you Etomic when it comes to the angst part. I happen to believe that Hayes is THAT far behind Moses. Granted, all I have to go on is his lack of playing time as an indication. But, given the poor production out of Moses at times, you'd think that if it were close between the two and Moses picked up quick fouls, that Bradley would see a little time. My (bleak) opinion is that he's just that much behind in preparedness. Of course that prompts a whole bunch of other discussions but there's a whole offseason for that!! Does that mean that Domingo is THAT far behind Cameron? Because really, Cameron has essentially jacked up 3s. I like Cameron's game a lot though...he's not showing much of it yet Yes. It does. Have you seen Domingo in his limited minutes? If those minutes are any indication, it's not remotely close. For instance, Cameron can box out, rebound, has an idea of where to be on defense, and can knock down open threes at a fair clip for a freshman. You do watch the games, right?
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Feb 5, 2014 21:49:33 GMT -5
Does that mean that Domingo is THAT far behind Cameron? Because really, Cameron has essentially jacked up 3s. I like Cameron's game a lot though...he's not showing much of it yet Yes. It does. Have you seen Domingo in his limited minutes? If those minutes are any indication, it's not remotely close. For instance, Cameron can box out, rebound, has an idea of where to be on defense, and can knock down open threes at a fair clip for a freshman. You do watch the games, right? I more than watch the games sir or ma'am. yes. i think he's been pretty good defensively. right now he should prob. focus on his pullup game and getting to the basket.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 5, 2014 22:04:57 GMT -5
I don't want to rip a guy I've seen so little of but he has been, by far, the jumpiest defender I can recall seeing in a Hoya uniform. Maybe that's nervousness due to lack of PT. I don't know. His switching has been well below average to be fair. That said, he was recruited for his shooting which has been bad. All of that, however, is a small sample size. But if he were lighting it up in practice, he'd be getting time especially considering that DSR had a rib issue and Cameron hasn't been lighting it up and, generally speaking, this team needs help offensively. He hasn't been getting more time. If you could suspend your disagreement with the rotation and just look at the empirical evidence, what is the logical conclusion as to why Domingo isn't playing? Is it that JT3 doesn't like the kid or is it that he just hasn't proven that he can play on the level that Reggie Cameron can yet? Which is more likely in your honest opinion? As for getting to the basket, I haven't seen anything that would indicate he can ever do that at this level. He's a shooter. But, again, small sample size. If he had Cameron's size and his own quickness, I'd be much more willing to agree with you. But he's not quick enough to blow by people and he's not strong enough to get the shots that DSR can create. What, exactly, do you think that Domingo would provide that Cameron isn't? He's not better on the boards. He's not shooting better. He's not a better defender. He doesn't understand the offense or defense better. Unless he does a lot of work in the offseason, he's nailed to the bench next year too if all things remain equal. I wish we had 13 guys we could shuttle in and out with little drop-off. I do. I don't believe we do and I believe that the guys that we do have that haven't fallen due to academics or injury have very little margin for error to pull out wins. Little enough such that you can't give guys that aren't ready playing time just because you really want to. The guys that are sitting, this year more than in the past 7 or so, have to earn those minutes. We have 2 guards that are carrying this squad most nights. You can't ask them to carry more by not playing the best personnel available.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Feb 5, 2014 23:37:25 GMT -5
The reason you just do not play a guy for 3 to 5 minutes is because at the end of a game when it is a one possession game, those 3 to 5 minutes may come back to bite you. I have no problem with not playing Domingo or Hayes until they have proven that they deserve minutes. No one said anything about a one possession game. We were up by 15 or something close to it. i just don't see how putting the kid in for a few minutes in that situation is going to cost us the game. Do we think he's really THAT bad that he would single-handedly blow a 15 point lead? The way things are right now, the only bigs that we know will be on the roster next year are Hop and Hayes. And that's somewhat terrifying. I just feel that should the chips fall that way next year, any time Hayes gets this year can only be beneficial. Is it likely that those are our only two centers? Probably not. But if we've learned anything from the last couple years it should be to prepare for the worst. And I just think giving him a few minutes in that situation the other night would have been a decent move.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Feb 6, 2014 8:12:50 GMT -5
We were up 14 because the rotation JTIII was using was effective. Don't just look at individual stats. The team played well while Moses was in. We didn't need him to score. The game was not over. Who would put a project on the floor in that situation?
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Feb 6, 2014 9:03:38 GMT -5
We were up 14 because the rotation JTIII was using was effective. Don't just look at individual stats. The team played well while Moses was in. We didn't need him to score. The game was not over. Who would put a project on the floor in that situation? The team played well despite Moses being completely and utterly useless in this game. I never said the game was over. If we're gonna blow a 14 point lead in 4 minutes, it's not going to be because Hayes is on the floor instead of Moses, which is why I wouldn't have minded seeing Hayes. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter at all. I generally don't want to see Hayes on the floor, but I thought this was a situation that might have been OK to give him a few somewhat meaningful minutes. I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture here.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Feb 6, 2014 9:22:57 GMT -5
We were up 14 because the rotation JTIII was using was effective. Don't just look at individual stats. The team played well while Moses was in. We didn't need him to score. The game was not over. Who would put a project on the floor in that situation? The team played well despite Moses being completely and utterly useless in this game. I never said the game was over. If we're gonna blow a 14 point lead in 4 minutes, it's not going to be because Hayes is on the floor instead of Moses, which is why I wouldn't have minded seeing Hayes. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter at all. I generally don't want to see Hayes on the floor, but I thought this was a situation that might have been OK to give him a few somewhat meaningful minutes. I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture here. Hate to keep this discussion going since it is pretty much played out, but it was really telling to me that JTIII was not comfortable putting Hayes in when he had all three of his big men on the bench (fouled out). If it was garbage minutes, maybe he would have, but the game was definitely not over -- there were three minutes to play, Depaul was pressing, and I don't think anyone truly felt that the game was "put away" yet. Now it may have had something to do with JTIII wanting ball-handlers and guys who can shoot FTs on the floor, but to completely cede the middle to DePaul? That speaks volumes about the coach's confidence in Hayes. And if I remember correctly, DePaul had at least two easy baskets where they blew right by our guards and drove into the lane for baskets.
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Post by HometownHoya on Feb 6, 2014 11:47:12 GMT -5
If Cameron or who ever else got moved to the 5 after the other bigs got fouled out got destroyed, then maybe we would see Hayes as a stop gap. They did fine so JT3 didn't have to go with a last resort. Hayes isn't getting minutes except when he is the last option i.e. we have 5 players+ foul out.
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Post by johnnysnowplow on Feb 6, 2014 11:49:14 GMT -5
If Cameron or who ever else got moved to the 5 after the other bigs got fouled out got destroyed, then maybe we would see Hayes as a stop gap. They did fine so JT3 didn't have to go with a last resort. Hayes isn't getting minutes except when he is the last option i.e. we have 5 players+ foul out. Or when Moses is inexplicably suspended for another game...
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Feb 6, 2014 12:59:47 GMT -5
The team played well despite Moses being completely and utterly useless in this game. I never said the game was over. If we're gonna blow a 14 point lead in 4 minutes, it's not going to be because Hayes is on the floor instead of Moses, which is why I wouldn't have minded seeing Hayes. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter at all. I generally don't want to see Hayes on the floor, but I thought this was a situation that might have been OK to give him a few somewhat meaningful minutes. I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture here. Hate to keep this discussion going since it is pretty much played out, but it was really telling to me that JTIII was not comfortable putting Hayes in when he had all three of his big men on the bench (fouled out). If it was garbage minutes, maybe he would have, but the game was definitely not over -- there were three minutes to play, Depaul was pressing, and I don't think anyone truly felt that the game was "put away" yet. Now it may have had something to do with JTIII wanting ball-handlers and guys who can shoot FTs on the floor, but to completely cede the middle to DePaul? That speaks volumes about the coach's confidence in Hayes. And if I remember correctly, DePaul had at least two easy baskets where they blew right by our guards and drove into the lane for baskets. DePaul was also intentionally fouling in the final three minutes. The only way we would blow the lead would be a combination of turnovers, missed foul shots, and dumb shooting fouls that gave DePaul baskets and free throws. Three reasons to play ball handlers, foul shooters, and more experienced players. If you put in Hayes in the final three minutes, and I were a guard for DePaul, I would drive right into him and go for the and-1 opportunities and then I would push/hold/lean obviously on him while Georgetown was inbounding the ball so he shot free throws instead of Starks or DSR. So, in you scenario, JTIII would have this conversation: "I'm putting in Hayes, but don't pass him the ball because we don't want him shooting free throws or turning the ball over, and on defense we don't want him to switch on a ball handler or get anywhere near anyone handling the ball or taking a shot because we don't want him to foul." Or he could put in Cameron and we would have five players playing basketball instead of keep-away.
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