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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 5, 2014 13:07:12 GMT -5
While I readily admit that Hayes has had little opportunity in games, he has done absolutely nothing to warrant more. In his one chance during a meaningful game, he had two rebounds in his hands and failed to hold them both. He was out of position twice on defense, and failed to corral the one pass thrown to him; it was a little off, but a D-1 center has to grab it. Again, especially when we have virtually no margin for error this year, I trust the coach's judgment that Moses, while certainly limited, is far less of a risk than Hayes.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 5, 2014 13:49:11 GMT -5
While I readily admit that Hayes has had little opportunity in games, he has done absolutely nothing to warrant more. In his one chance during a meaningful game, he had two rebounds in his hands and failed to hold them both. He was out of position twice on defense, and failed to corral the one pass thrown to him; it was a little off, but a D-1 center has to grab it. Again, especially when we have virtually no margin for error this year, I trust the coach's judgment that Moses, while certainly limited, is far less of a risk than Hayes. We both know that even if he had grabbed those rebounds or caught DSR's pass or rotated properly he still wouldn't see any court time.. It's not like we haven't seen Moses or Hop or Nate fumble a rebound away or drop a pass or miss a rotation and it doesn't change their playing time.. He likes Moses better, it's as simple as that.. You can trust this judgement but I'd rather see it for myself. Contrary to popular opinion it can be done without jeopardizing losses.. Frazier, I'll ask you the same question I've asked others but have yet to get a response.. Why did JT3 bother to play Hayes at all this year if he wasn't ready? Actually let me ask it this way.. Do you feel it was a good idea to play the kid at all if he wasn't ready?
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 5, 2014 13:56:30 GMT -5
He likes Moses better as a player. Why do you think that might be? Could it possibly be that it's because he's a better player? That would be weird.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Feb 5, 2014 14:13:54 GMT -5
While I readily admit that Hayes has had little opportunity in games, he has done absolutely nothing to warrant more. In his one chance during a meaningful game, he had two rebounds in his hands and failed to hold them both. He was out of position twice on defense, and failed to corral the one pass thrown to him; it was a little off, but a D-1 center has to grab it. Again, especially when we have virtually no margin for error this year, I trust the coach's judgment that Moses, while certainly limited, is far less of a risk than Hayes. Coachable things - easy to fix. Depends on the coach; maybe for THIS coach/staff he shouldn't be on the team. That being said, some of the things Hopkins has done has baffled me at the moment, but he's being played. Hop has said "coach has played me through the mistakes and I'm glad he had the trust in me to put me out there..." Also, before the last couple games ALL of the front line would just slap at the ball more often than not and not secure rebounds. For Hayes, it's a confidence/ thinking issue. JTIII is very business-like, he doesn't seem like a developer or a motivator of young men on and off the court - but he does allow you the freedom to mature at your own rate which Markel has stated. It's very admirable, but for some student-athletes especially "projects" they need it brought out of them. I refuse to believe Hayes can't contribute under the right circumstances. But JTIII is not a risk taker and not an innovator or motivator. He's a heck of a coach though, they'll always be successful. But getting over that hump involves a bit of risk I think But it is what it is.
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Feb 5, 2014 14:16:41 GMT -5
He likes Moses better as a player. Why do you think that might be? Could it possibly be that it's because he's a better player? That would be weird. Better in what sense? More knowledgeable of the offense or more talented?
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 5, 2014 14:20:10 GMT -5
He likes Moses better as a player. Why do you think that might be? Could it possibly be that it's because he's a better player? That would be weird. Better in what sense? More knowledgeable of the offense or more talented? Does it matter? If he's the better player and this squad has very little room for error, you go with the better player.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Feb 5, 2014 14:27:12 GMT -5
Frazier, I'll ask you the same question I've asked others but have yet to get a response.. Why did JT3 bother to play Hayes at all this year if he wasn't ready? Actually let me ask it this way.. Do you feel it was a good idea to play the kid at all if he wasn't ready? I think this is actually the much better question. I don't second guess at all JTIII not playing Hayes very much. There is little to go on, but what there is to go on seems to be saying fairly definitively that he is not ready yet. However, I have often wondered why not try to go for a redshirt year, given that he is not ready yet? Playing him just a couple of minutes in a couple of games seems like a worse alternative. Obviously, to quote Tony Stark, I can't do the equation if I don't have all the variables. And I am sure there are a lot of variables we don't know about. So I don't know the answer; if this option was explored, if not, then why not, etc., etc. But it's certainly something I've asked myself more than a couple of times.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 5, 2014 14:28:24 GMT -5
Better in what sense? More knowledgeable of the offense or more talented? Does it matter? If he's the better player and this squad has very little room for error, you go with the better player. The problem I have with this Tas is that Moses makes plenty of mistakes during games now and you assume Hayes will make more.. You have no idea whether or not that'll be true & neither do I but I would be willing to see for sure.. If Moses was blocking 1.5 to 2 shots a game I'd shut my mouth, if he were grabbing 6.5 boards a game I'd shut up, hell if he wasn't fouling at the rate he does I'd shut up but he isn't doing any of those things..
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dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Feb 5, 2014 14:35:52 GMT -5
Better in what sense? More knowledgeable of the offense or more talented? Does it matter? If he's the better player and this squad has very little room for error, you go with the better player. I'm asking a question...
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 5, 2014 14:56:34 GMT -5
While I readily admit that Hayes has had little opportunity in games, he has done absolutely nothing to warrant more. In his one chance during a meaningful game, he had two rebounds in his hands and failed to hold them both. He was out of position twice on defense, and failed to corral the one pass thrown to him; it was a little off, but a D-1 center has to grab it. Again, especially when we have virtually no margin for error this year, I trust the coach's judgment that Moses, while certainly limited, is far less of a risk than Hayes. We both know that even if he had grabbed those rebounds or caught DSR's pass or rotated properly he still wouldn't see any court time.. It's not like we haven't seen Moses or Hop or Nate fumble a rebound away or drop a pass or miss a rotation and it doesn't change their playing time.. He likes Moses better, it's as simple as that.. You can trust this judgement but I'd rather see it for myself. Contrary to popular opinion it can be done without jeopardizing losses.. Frazier, I'll ask you the same question I've asked others but have yet to get a response.. Why did JT3 bother to play Hayes at all this year if he wasn't ready? Actually let me ask it this way.. Do you feel it was a good idea to play the kid at all if he wasn't ready? He played Hayes against nova because Moses was out, nova had bugs SNF we needed the extra body. He played him a little OOC because he wanted to see what happened in less critical moments; even then Hayes showed virtually nothing, although admittedly those were brief opportunities. You act as if Moses has shown absolutely nothing in the last 2 years to warrant any playing time. Granted he is a fouling machine, and he isn't exactly a dominant force. But he has shown some physicality, played some effective defense, and grabbed some boards. He has definitely had some positive moments. Hayes has had none in his limited chances. Coach doesn't "like" Moses, he just believes there is a much greater chance that Moses will contribute than there is with Hayes.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Feb 5, 2014 15:03:16 GMT -5
Frazier, I'll ask you the same question I've asked others but have yet to get a response.. Why did JT3 bother to play Hayes at all this year if he wasn't ready? Actually let me ask it this way.. Do you feel it was a good idea to play the kid at all if he wasn't ready? I think this is actually the much better question. I don't second guess at all JTIII not playing Hayes very much. There is little to go on, but what there is to go on seems to be saying fairly definitively that he is not ready yet. However, I have often wondered why not try to go for a redshirt year, given that he is not ready yet? Playing him just a couple of minutes in a couple of games seems like a worse alternative. Obviously, to quote Tony Stark, I can't do the equation if I don't have all the variables. And I am sure there are a lot of variables we don't know about. So I don't know the answer; if this option was explored, if not, then why not, etc., etc. But it's certainly something I've asked myself more than a couple of times. Isnt Hayes playing in the exact situations you'd expect him to play in? i.e., the last possible person off the bench in emergency or garbage situations. That seems consistent. As to red shirt, I think that's a pretty big deal that you reserve for special circumstances, no? I wouldnt think III would ever just use that because a player is not really good enough. How does that play with available scholarships, etc?
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 5, 2014 15:14:03 GMT -5
While I readily admit that Hayes has had little opportunity in games, he has done absolutely nothing to warrant more. In his one chance during a meaningful game, he had two rebounds in his hands and failed to hold them both. He was out of position twice on defense, and failed to corral the one pass thrown to him; it was a little off, but a D-1 center has to grab it. Again, especially when we have virtually no margin for error this year, I trust the coach's judgment that Moses, while certainly limited, is far less of a risk than Hayes. We both know that even if he had grabbed those rebounds or caught DSR's pass or rotated properly he still wouldn't see any court time.. It's not like we haven't seen Moses or Hop or Nate fumble a rebound away or drop a pass or miss a rotation and it doesn't change their playing time.. He likes Moses better, it's as simple as that.. You can trust this judgement but I'd rather see it for myself. Contrary to popular opinion it can be done without jeopardizing losses.. Frazier, I'll ask you the same question I've asked others but have yet to get a response.. Why did JT3 bother to play Hayes at all this year if he wasn't ready? Actually let me ask it this way.. Do you feel it was a good idea to play the kid at all if he wasn't ready? Obviously, none of us knows the answer, but there are a number of quite plausible explanations, in order (in my opinion) of plausibility: (1) Knowing going into the year that Josh might be ineffective or have other issues, JTIII was uncomfortable having only three other true bigs on the roster, particularly given the ways fouls were going to be called this year and the possibility of injury. It's no coincidence that the one game Moses missed is the one game where he got meaningful minutes. (2) He thought Hayes would improve markedly as the year went on. He played him in some early OOC games to facilitate that expected improvement, which, unfortunately hasn't occurred. This explanation essentially assumes that everyone (JTIII included) would agree not red-shirting him was a mistake, at least in hindsight. (3) JTIII raised it with Hayes, Hayes strongly objected to red-shirting, and JTIII agreed. There may well be others, and you may think none of these is compelling, but it's not absurd to have played him. As for not giving him time in a meaningful game that is still undecided, we'll just have to disagree on that point. I think there is simply no way to ensure that even a three minute stint of time won't come back to bite the team at the end. Let's say BH fumbles an entry pass out of bounds and it costs the Hoyas a possession, and two hours later, they lose the game by a point. (That's not exactly what happened vs. Villanova, both because it wasn't clearly his fault and also the game wasn't decided by a point, but it easily could be situation.) Sure, you might say "Mikael or Moses lose balls thrown to them all the time, so what's the difference is BH does it? Well, if you think that there is a better chance that BH will lose you a possession, that's the answer to the question.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 5, 2014 15:33:30 GMT -5
We both know that even if he had grabbed those rebounds or caught DSR's pass or rotated properly he still wouldn't see any court time.. It's not like we haven't seen Moses or Hop or Nate fumble a rebound away or drop a pass or miss a rotation and it doesn't change their playing time.. He likes Moses better, it's as simple as that.. You can trust this judgement but I'd rather see it for myself. Contrary to popular opinion it can be done without jeopardizing losses.. Frazier, I'll ask you the same question I've asked others but have yet to get a response.. Why did JT3 bother to play Hayes at all this year if he wasn't ready? Actually let me ask it this way.. Do you feel it was a good idea to play the kid at all if he wasn't ready? He played Hayes against nova because Moses was out, nova had bugs SNF we needed the extra body. He played him a little OOC because he wanted to see what happened in less critical moments; even then Hayes showed virtually nothing, although admittedly those were brief opportunities. You act as if Moses has shown absolutely nothing in the last 2 years to warrant any playing time. Granted he is a fouling machine, and he isn't exactly a dominant force. But he has shown some physicality, played some effective defense, and grabbed some boards. He has definitely had some positive moments. Hayes has had none in his limited chances. Coach doesn't "like" Moses, he just believes there is a much greater chance that Moses will contribute than there is with Hayes. I know what Moses has done here and he's definitely had his moments(at Syracuse last season) but by & large he's a non factor out there.. Even you're admitting he's consistently subpar.. Let's be real Frazier has has played 16 minutes this year, He's averaging 1.6 mpg.. Do you really believe that he's had chances?
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Feb 5, 2014 15:44:40 GMT -5
Let's be real Frazier has has played 16 minutes this year, He's averaging 1.6 mpg.. Do you really believe that he's had chances? I agree, the sample is not large enough to reach conclusions.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 5, 2014 15:48:52 GMT -5
We both know that even if he had grabbed those rebounds or caught DSR's pass or rotated properly he still wouldn't see any court time.. It's not like we haven't seen Moses or Hop or Nate fumble a rebound away or drop a pass or miss a rotation and it doesn't change their playing time.. He likes Moses better, it's as simple as that.. You can trust this judgement but I'd rather see it for myself. Contrary to popular opinion it can be done without jeopardizing losses.. Frazier, I'll ask you the same question I've asked others but have yet to get a response.. Why did JT3 bother to play Hayes at all this year if he wasn't ready? Actually let me ask it this way.. Do you feel it was a good idea to play the kid at all if he wasn't ready? Obviously, none of us knows the answer, but there are a number of quite plausible explanations, in order (in my opinion) of plausibility: (1) Knowing going into the year that Josh might be ineffective or have other issues, JTIII was uncomfortable having only three other true bigs on the roster, particularly given the ways fouls were going to be called this year and the possibility of injury. It's no coincidence that the one game Moses missed is the one game where he got meaningful minutes. (2) He thought Hayes would improve markedly as the year went on. He played him in some early OOC games to facilitate that expected improvement, which, unfortunately hasn't occurred. This explanation essentially assumes that everyone (JTIII included) would agree not red-shirting him was a mistake, at least in hindsight. (3) JTIII raised it with Hayes, Hayes strongly objected to red-shirting, and JTIII agreed. There may well be others, and you may think none of these is compelling, but it's not absurd to have played him. As for not giving him time in a meaningful game that is still undecided, we'll just have to disagree on that point. I think there is simply no way to ensure that even a three minute stint of time won't come back to bite the team at the end. Let's say BH fumbles an entry pass out of bounds and it costs the Hoyas a possession, and two hours later, they lose the game by a point. (That's not exactly what happened vs. Villanova, both because it wasn't clearly his fault and also the game wasn't decided by a point, but it easily could be situation.) Sure, you might say "Mikael or Moses lose balls thrown to them all the time, so what's the difference is BH does it? Well, if you think that there is a better chance that BH will lose you a possession, that's the answer to the question. (1) A RS tag can be removed at any time during the season.. (2) He played 13 minutes in 11 OOC games.. (3) If JT3 wanted him to RS and he strongly objected, JT3 should have shown him the door.. Simple as that. So none of the missed shots, turn-overs, missed assignments that are made by other players mean anything? You'd go back to the fumbled pass by Hayes as the reason the team lost?
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 5, 2014 15:53:06 GMT -5
Even in those 16 minutes Hayes has shown nothing. Not much chance, granted. But if he has not shown a grasp of the offensive or defensive schemes - and obviously I don't know if that is the case, but the staff would - then it makes no sense to take the risk in a game we have to win.
Even as a mere fan, and even with his deficiencies, I feel more comfortable with Moses in the game than with Hayes. So I have no problem with the minutes he gets. But I would like him to foul less.
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EtomicB
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Post by EtomicB on Feb 5, 2014 16:07:21 GMT -5
Even in those 16 minutes Hayes has shown nothing. Not much chance, granted. But if he has not shown a grasp of the offensive or defensive schemes - and obviously I don't know if that is the case, but the staff would - then it makes no sense to take the risk in a game we have to win. Even as a mere fan, and even with his deficiencies, I feel more comfortable with Moses in the game than with Hayes. So I have no problem with the minutes he gets. But I would like him to foul less. I re-watched his play against Nova several times and he knew where to be on both offense & defense.. I posted what I saw in that game thread.. We'll just have to agree to disagree for this season anyway.. I'm sure this conversation will be had again next year..
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Post by aleutianhoya on Feb 5, 2014 16:27:12 GMT -5
Obviously, none of us knows the answer, but there are a number of quite plausible explanations, in order (in my opinion) of plausibility: (1) Knowing going into the year that Josh might be ineffective or have other issues, JTIII was uncomfortable having only three other true bigs on the roster, particularly given the ways fouls were going to be called this year and the possibility of injury. It's no coincidence that the one game Moses missed is the one game where he got meaningful minutes. (2) He thought Hayes would improve markedly as the year went on. He played him in some early OOC games to facilitate that expected improvement, which, unfortunately hasn't occurred. This explanation essentially assumes that everyone (JTIII included) would agree not red-shirting him was a mistake, at least in hindsight. (3) JTIII raised it with Hayes, Hayes strongly objected to red-shirting, and JTIII agreed. There may well be others, and you may think none of these is compelling, but it's not absurd to have played him. As for not giving him time in a meaningful game that is still undecided, we'll just have to disagree on that point. I think there is simply no way to ensure that even a three minute stint of time won't come back to bite the team at the end. Let's say BH fumbles an entry pass out of bounds and it costs the Hoyas a possession, and two hours later, they lose the game by a point. (That's not exactly what happened vs. Villanova, both because it wasn't clearly his fault and also the game wasn't decided by a point, but it easily could be situation.) Sure, you might say "Mikael or Moses lose balls thrown to them all the time, so what's the difference is BH does it? Well, if you think that there is a better chance that BH will lose you a possession, that's the answer to the question. (1) A RS tag can be removed at any time during the season.. (2) He played 13 minutes in 11 OOC games.. (3) If JT3 wanted him to RS and he strongly objected, JT3 should have shown him the door.. Simple as that. So none of the missed shots, turn-overs, missed assignments that are made by other players mean anything? You'd go back to the fumbled pass by Hayes as the reason the team lost? You're missing my point. Of course, all of the negative plays mean something -- collectively they (in addition to the relative lack of positive plays) add up to why we lost. If the goal is to win the game (and for me, that's the goal), then the goal for every single second of the game is to maximize the chances for positive plays and minimize the chances for negative ones. So, for every single second of playing time, the coach has to decide which players give him the best chance to do that. I don't think that's particularly controversial. If you think Moses gives you a better chance than Hayes either generally or in a given situation, then Moses plays. And the same is true for Hayes. Now, that doesn't mean you need to shorten a rotation: you may believe that playing a "worse" player a few minutes will provide needed rest to a "better" player and the net positive for the game overall outweighs the negative for those minutes of rest. That's fine. But that's not the case with Moses (or Mikael or Nate) vs. Hayes. Moses doesn't need more rest. Or there may be situations where a particular player, who is generally worse than another player but better in one area that needs to be leveraged at that particular point, gets the nod. But I'm not sure that applies to Hayes vs. Moses either. It's not that Moses is good -- he's not -- it's that in JTIII's opinion, he always provides a better chance to win than does Hayes. As for your other points: (1) Yes a redshirt can be burned at any time, but if you know going into the year that you want five guys who can play the 4/5 (because you know one of the five is sure to give you limited minutes at best), then you're not going to redshirt one of them, on the off-chance you only need four. (2) I would love to have seen him play more, too. Unfortunately, we didn't have a ton of blow-out-type games where the outcome was not in doubt relatively early on. But, I certainly would have played him a bit more in the ones where we did. It's also possible, of course, that even in those limited minutes, JTIII didn't like what he saw. (3) I don't think it's all that plausible to begin with, but it certainly could have more of a discusion, rather than a demand.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 5, 2014 16:43:13 GMT -5
Even in those 16 minutes Hayes has shown nothing. Not much chance, granted. But if he has not shown a grasp of the offensive or defensive schemes - and obviously I don't know if that is the case, but the staff would - then it makes no sense to take the risk in a game we have to win. Even as a mere fan, and even with his deficiencies, I feel more comfortable with Moses in the game than with Hayes. So I have no problem with the minutes he gets. But I would like him to foul less. I re-watched his play against Nova several times and he knew where to be on both offense & defense.. I posted what I saw in that game thread.. We'll just have to agree to disagree for this season anyway.. I'm sure this conversation will be had again next year.. Fair enough. I actually would love to see Hayes be able to contribute, we certainly could use it. Maybe he will keep working, circumstances will give him a chance and he will have some positive moments. That could lead to more chances. We would certainly be stronger if that happened.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Feb 5, 2014 17:32:02 GMT -5
This has nothing to do with practice.. It's simply a coach going with the familiar, regardless of how unproductive or bad over the unknown.. Look at the Depaul situation, both Jaimee Crocket & Charles Mckinney were playing over RJ Currington. They stated on the broadcast Monday that Currington had many dnp's this year prior to their game against Seton Hall. Crocket was suspended, Mckinney was hurt so Purnell gives Currington a shot to play.. The kid has scored 15, 22 & 10 in the 3 games, more than Crockett or Mckinney ever did this year.. The problem is that you don't really know this. If John Thompson III went for the familiar all the time, he would never play freshman. He has a history of playing guys who can contribute. There has never been a player who has sat on the bench, gone elsewhere, and flourished (and don't tell me about Benimon, who had plenty of time at Georgetown and was a regular part of the rotation - he turned it around because he is playing awful competition) that John Thompson III refused to play. I know a lot of us wanted Vee Sanford to get more time, but he had extremely talented guards playing in front of him. If Hayes is not getting time, there has to be a reason beyond "the familiar." And keep in mind, all these guys are "familiar" to John Thompson because he seems them practice. They are not familiar to us because we aren't part of the practices. All that said, I also wouldn't have had a problem with Hayes getting a few minutes at the end of the DePaul game, but that was an extremely unique circumstance. We have such a small margin to win many of our upcoming games that we cannot afford to be breaking in new guys now if it can be avoided.
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