dreamhoya
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Post by dreamhoya on Feb 2, 2011 23:15:21 GMT -5
yeah nikita and wattad were bashed a good bit. On the JT Show he said that Henry is playing out of position and should be a 4. i agree. put him with someone in the pivot and he'll excel. except, we have lubick who's been great. anyone notice GUs defense and rebounding has gotten MUCH better since lubick starts...
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Feb 2, 2011 23:20:39 GMT -5
We tried Henry at the play for the 1st two years and it didn't work. This year we're playing him at the 5 and he's excelling. Seems pretty simple to me.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 2, 2011 23:37:31 GMT -5
Henry, at this point, fits better at the 5. His natural position may be the 4 but he's not there yet. JB is an undersized 4 right now. He has a good amount of development to do to be a competitive 3 at this level. I'm not saying he can't do it. Just that that's a pretty long road right now.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 2, 2011 23:39:21 GMT -5
I should amend that actually with regard to Henry. Henry would be a serviceable 4 in another offensive scheme right now. In our system, he's lacking a bit to be an effective 4.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Feb 3, 2011 10:44:15 GMT -5
Change the title of the thread to Jerrelle and Vee so we can stop bashing Jerrelle.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Feb 3, 2011 10:58:52 GMT -5
A nice thought, Ed, but some guys are getting their kicks bashing Jerrelle, changing the title won't stop them.
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Post by HometownHoya on Feb 3, 2011 11:21:45 GMT -5
This thread has jumped the shark
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Post by strummer8526 on Feb 3, 2011 11:26:36 GMT -5
A nice thought, Ed, but some guys are getting their kicks bashing Jerrelle, changing the title won't stop them. I get my kicks on route 66. Jerrelle Benimon rarely plays any part in it.
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Feb 3, 2011 12:25:43 GMT -5
We tried Henry at the play for the 1st two years and it didn't work. This year we're playing him at the 5 and he's excelling. Seems pretty simple to me. I think this is underselling Sims development overall. It's clear he just worked hard this offseason to become a much better overall player. Quick, try to pick out the guy who can't play the 4 in this offense and the guy who can: 74 minutes, 3/10 FG, 3 assists, 6 turnovers 82 minutes, 2/6 FG, 1 assists, 7 turnovers The first is sophomore Sims in Big East play, the second is sophomore Benimon in Big East play. Henry was 12/26 FG, 6 A, 6 TO in 147 BE minutes as a freshman, so it was clear he was capable of playing better and just wasn't. Benimon was 7/17 FG, 6 A, 14 TO in 225 minutes as a freshman, so how much better can he really play? I just don't think there's really a compelling reason that we shouldn't be playing Vaughn 30 MPG, Lubick 25-30, Sims 15-20, with Thompson filling in a few minutes a game at the 4 as needed.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 3, 2011 12:34:45 GMT -5
On Sims,
While I agree that he's looked much more comfortable this year at what people are calling the "5" (or rather the inside player), there's two factors at play there. He's not at the "4" and it's this year.
I think the idea that he can't play the four and that that was the cause of his struggles is misattribution. Sims' skillset doesn't translate overly poorly to the role that Lubick is playing. He has a nice jumper. He can come weakside for offensive rebounds. He's a strong passer.
Mind you, I'm not saying he's better suited for the 4. He's not a strong dribbler and defensively, he's a little slow to react so handling the run outs to the corner would be a struggle. Plus, he's at his best in the high post and we tend to have the inside guy do that.
But both Sims and Thompson attribute his improved play to hard work. And rationally, another year of hard work and development are much more likely to generate the kind of production gains that Sims has gotten than just a relatively minor change of role.
So I'm with freemoney on that.
As for Benimon, I'm still on the record as saying I think he could develop into a Jaron Brown-type (if not as good) at the three. Strong, a good defender. He actually has a decent first step. He needs to improve his handler and he has to develop SOME kind of shot.
It's a long way to go on that last point. Without the last two elements, he's still going to be a weakness on the court. And as the roster shifts from guard-heavy to forward-heavy (as it does next year), I expect his time to actually decrease (once the freshmen get acclimated) if he doesn't improve his perimeter skills.
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Post by williambraskyiii on Feb 3, 2011 12:41:28 GMT -5
On Sims, While I agree that he's looked much more comfortable this year at what people are calling the "5" (or rather the inside player), there's two factors at play there. He's not at the "4" and it's this year. I think the idea that he can't play the four and that that was the cause of his struggles is misattribution. Sims' skillset doesn't translate overly poorly to the role that Lubick is playing. He has a nice jumper. He can come weakside for offensive rebounds. He's a strong passer. Mind you, I'm not saying he's better suited for the 4. He's not a strong dribbler and defensively, he's a little slow to react so handling the run outs to the corner would be a struggle. Plus, he's at his best in the high post and we tend to have the inside guy do that. But both Sims and Thompson attribute his improved play to hard work. And rationally, another year of hard work and development are much more likely to generate the kind of production gains that Sims has gotten than just a relatively minor change of role. So I'm with freemoney on that. As for Benimon, I'm still on the record as saying I think he could develop into a Jaron Brown-type (if not as good) at the three. Strong, a good defender. He actually has a decent first step. He needs to improve his handler and he has to develop SOME kind of shot. It's a long way to go on that last point. Without the last two elements, he's still going to be a weakness on the court. And as the roster shifts from guard-heavy to forward-heavy (as it does next year), I expect his time to actually decrease (once the freshmen get acclimated) if he doesn't improve his perimeter skills. A homeless man's jaron brown...PASS
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Feb 3, 2011 13:20:50 GMT -5
I think Henry at the 4 defensively is much more of a liability than henry at the 4 on offense at this point. I'd be fine with henry at the 4 offensively, but unless we switch to zone primarily I don't want him or julian chasing smaller quicker players around.
Perhaps he could be fine at the 4 this year, but right now if it ain't broke don't fix it.
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dense
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Post by dense on Feb 3, 2011 17:21:57 GMT -5
I dont think using the numbers really proves the point, I remember most of Sims turnovers at the 4 beign the telegraphing the pass, mishandling his dribble type that led to easy runouts, i dont remember Jerrelle beign that. All turnovers are not equal in basketball. deadball turnovers while they suck arent backbreaking, ones that are live-ball are crushing, cause they with high frequency lead to easy lay-ups. I dont have any visual or statiscal proof im just going off what i remember as the difference.
Now I'm not saying Henry is terrible at the 4 and shoudl never ever play there again, what I'm more or less saying is he has been great at the 5 why fix what aint broke.....I think alot of people's plans have more to do with seeing the guys at the end of the bench play....I agree with everyone that it would be nice to get Vee some minutes, but exchanging for Jerrelle's minutes works in a math equation but not in reality..... I agree I think Jerrelle's minutes will more than likely stay the same when we get to this time of the year next year.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Feb 3, 2011 18:27:39 GMT -5
Watched the Final Four year win against North Carolina and two things immediately came to mind. First was how much then we took for granted that the Hoyas would always have quality big men at the 3 frontcourt positions. Hibbert, Green, Summers, PE,JR. and Macklin on the same team. I never imagined that we would be talking about the Hoyas having to play small ball. I remember thinking, if only the Hoyas could get two 4 star guards, that they would be unstopable. Now, we are taliking about a 6'7" player with no offense playing power forward minutes for the Hoyas. Second, as I watched the AIG commercial during the game, who would have thought that it would almost be irrevelant today. Lets hope next year marks the resurgence of Big Man U, with no going back to small ball, but I am greedy and still want those 4 star guards.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 3, 2011 19:27:45 GMT -5
Perry McDonald was 6'4 at the 4 position.
Bill Martin was 6'7 and played the 4 for us in '85. Brian Kelly was 6'6 and played the 4 when he was here.
Benimon is not a liability at the 4 defensively or it when it comes to physicality in the big east.
Some of ya''l were crying that Hollis played the 4 and he is like the same height as Jeff Green and Summers and PE, Jr. were.
this is college basketball after all.
Don't understand the problem with Benimon. He doesn't give you much offensively and is not an option on offense. But neither is Henry or Nate. So why the hate for Benimon? All 3 are great role playing-big men that give us something, along with Vaughn, that cant' be measured in stats. The dirty work that they do, helps take some of the load off of our 3 stars Wright, Freeman, and Clark.
Benimon is what he is......a role player. And a damn good one at that. He is there to bang, throw elbows and move folks around. I guess he is useless for the Ken Pomeroy's of the world, but he is vital for JTIII and our program. Same with Nate. All good teams have these type of guys. All good teams need them.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Feb 3, 2011 19:33:05 GMT -5
Sometimes the_way has a way of bringing us back to earth.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Feb 3, 2011 19:40:08 GMT -5
I'm fine with JB's effort and realize that he's playing a role that we need played and doing it pretty well. However, equating Nate or Henry's offensive games to Jerrelle right now is not at all accurate. Even if Henry and Nate didn't score more points than JB, they are still much better passers at this point.
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Post by rustyshackleford on Feb 3, 2011 19:46:40 GMT -5
Perry McDonald was 6'4 at the 4 position. Bill Martin was 6'7 and played the 4 for us in '85. Brian Kelly was 6'6 and played the 4 when he was here. Benimon is not a liability at the 4 defensively or it when it comes to physicality in the big east. Some of ya''l were crying that Hollis played the 4 and he is like the same height as Jeff Green and Summers and PE, Jr. were. this is college basketball after all. Don't understand the problem with Benimon. He doesn't give you much offensively and is not an option on offense. But neither is Henry or Nate. So why the hate for Benimon? All 3 are great role playing-big men that give us something, along with Vaughn, that cant' be measured in stats. The dirty work that they do, helps take some of the load off of our 3 stars Wright, Freeman, and Clark. Benimon is what he is......a role player. And a damn good one at that. He is there to bang, throw elbows and move folks around. I guess he is useless for the Ken Pomeroy's of the world, but he vital for JTIII and our program. Same with Nate. All good teams have these type of guys. All good teams need them. I don't mind seeing Benimon for short spurts and think he's a plus in terms of rebounding and defense. However, I think you're minimizing the effect he has on offense. He is a net NEGATIVE on offense. He doesn't seem to pass too often when he does get the ball (he seems to have tunnel vision) and will often make an awful decision (3 pters/charges/etc) or put up a really bad shot when he gets it. Additionally, because of his offense we play 4 on 5 when he's on the floor on offense. In my opinion the last guy we had this issue with (where he was truly a net negative on offense) was Rivers. In that case, Rivers was an elite defender for the guard position. While Benimon is a solid defender, he is not close to as good as Rivers was. Unless Benimon improves I expect him to see the bench a lot more when we get more big reinforcements next year and frankly I think he deserves less time for the remainder of the season. Others have mentioned that he is only a sophomore so I think he can end up being a valuable player for us. Playing in a more controlled manner and improving his shot isn't impossible for him to do. This is especially true considering how hard a worker he seems to be. Until he does so though I'd rather see him get very limited minutes.
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Post by petabdoubleg on Feb 3, 2011 20:11:49 GMT -5
JTIII is a great coach and I think he knows what he is doing. Well i KNOW he knows what he is doing. I'm sure he has talked to Vee about minutes and his role. Vee seems to be a down-to-earth kid and is still getting along with all the players (at least from what I can tell on Twitter...a reliable source?) I think he understands and knows that his minutes are coming. For right now, I'm happy to see him on the court cause ya know he is going to contribute. That's all we can ask for.
I think we need to stop bashing Jerrelle too...the kid battles down low and plays pretty good defense. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not like he is taking minutes away from superstar big men. Nate and Henry make quite a lot of mistakes, they just aren't as magnified as Jerrelles because most Georgetown fans have fallen in love with Hank n Nate (me included). The Benimonster needs time to develop as well and I think we need to all be patient. 3-5 minutes a game is fine for now
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gujake
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Post by gujake on Feb 3, 2011 20:33:29 GMT -5
Some of ya''l were crying that Hollis played the 4 and he is like the same height as Jeff Green and Summers and PE, Jr. were. this is college basketball after all. Are you saying that Hollis is the same height as Green, etc... or that Benimon is? For what it's worth, according to Guhoyas: - Hollis: 6'7, 205 - Benimon: 6'7, 237 - Green: 6'9, 235 - Ewing Jr: 6'8, 240 - Summers: 6'8, 236 I am fine with Benimon playing the 4, but not at all okay with Hollis playing the 4. Hollis is as skinny as a rail - he tries hard when he plays the 4 and he is a good rebounder... but fact is our defense has been terrible with him at the 4. He can't scrap or hold position the way Benimon can. Since the switch to Lubick and fewer minutes for Hollis at the 4, our defense has been excellent. Not saying it is solely due to that, but height (and weight) matters.
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