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Post by rustyshackleford on Dec 26, 2010 18:52:45 GMT -5
This is not meant to be a knock on Starks, but I've seen nothing from him that suggests he should be ahead of Sanford in the pecking order. I know Starks is advertised as more of a pure point guard, but in JT III's system, it appears a pure PG is not necessary. For example, I don't consider Chris Wright a pure PG nor did I consider Wallace to be one. If the coaching staff's philosophy is to have the best players start games, I have a difficult time believing Vee won't be a starter next season. My projected lineup: G: Clark G: Sanford F: Thompson F: Lubick C: Sims Even though the TO% don't bear it out (though small sample sizes abound in a couple cases) I'm worried that this type of lineup would mean a 23-4% TO rate unless Jason tightens up his handle. That said, this is potentially the best defensive lineup we will have trotted out since the Hibbert days. Like others have said, I think Vee is probably the best defender out of our guards (though that isn't exactly a ringing endorsement). Jason could be the best defender but his lateral movement is so poor and he jumps out so often on players that he gets burned. That's correctable though and if he can work on that and his handle this is a potentially beastly defensive team (with potential stars at the 1-3 positions) especially with guys like Jabril in the wings and the length/size we'll have w/the young guys. In that case I'd be willing to sacrifice the loss in offensive efficiency that we would have w/o a handler/passer like Markel in the game at the expense of potentially being an elite defensive team again. In any event, as long as there are no transfers, we have have such an embarrassment of riches in terms of different skill sets next year that we won't have any trouble finding 20+ minutes for Jason, Vee and Markel.
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paranoia2
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Post by paranoia2 on Dec 26, 2010 19:31:09 GMT -5
Vee Sanford has sack. He does not shy away from taking a big shot and going forward someone is going to fill the leadership void created when Chris Wright graduates. Doesn't have to be the point guard to do that.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Dec 26, 2010 19:52:59 GMT -5
Good argument on both sides, but it really doesn't matter who starts. Both are going to see significant minutes next year, and both are going to contribute to the team in their respective ways. Excited to see how they both continue to develop during this season as well as during the off-season before next year.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Dec 26, 2010 22:28:57 GMT -5
Someone asked me above why I thought Vee, despite showing signs of possibly breaking out next year, will need to change his game dramatically and as a result may go through some growing pains.
I think it basically comes down to transitioning from a small minute guy to a big minute guy. Pacing of play. Consistent shot selection and decision making. Playing smart with 2-3-4 fouls. Shooting pressure FTs at end of game when winded. Adjusting to changes the defense throws at you throughout the course of the game. Ball handling against pressure. There are a lot of things that Vee doesn't have to deal with right now. Things that he will deal with with more time next year. Things that more seasoned players have experience with, understand, and are unfazed by if they are good.
Can anyone remember the last time we had a player who saw very limited minutes his first two seasons and then broke out as a Junior/Senior. The most notable example in Hoya history has to be Smitty. Anyone else of a more recent vintage? Usually the stars of a team get big minutes as freshman.
Hibbert, Clark, and Sapp had big jumps from freshman to sophomore seasons.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 26, 2010 22:38:45 GMT -5
Someone asked me above why I thought Vee, despite showing signs of possibly breaking out next year, will need to change his game dramatically and as a result may go through some growing pains. I think it basically comes down to transitioning from a small minute guy to a big minute guy. Pacing of play. Consistent shot selection and decision making. Playing smart with 2-3-4 fouls. Shooting pressure FTs at end of game when winded. Adjusting to changes the defense throws at you throughout the course of the game. Ball handling against pressure. There are a lot of things that Vee doesn't have to deal with right now. Things that he will deal with with more time next year. Things that more seasoned players have experience with, understand, and are unfazed by if they are good. Can anyone remember the last time we had a player who saw very limited minutes his first two seasons and then broke out as a Junior/Senior. The most notable example in Hoya history has to be Smitty. Anyone else of a more recent vintage? Usually the stars of a team get big minutes as freshman. Hibbert, Clark, and Sapp had big jumps from freshman to sophomore seasons. The thing about Vee is that he may have had a big jump like Hibbert, Clark and Sapp but there just aren't minutes available for him to showcase that jump like there were for those three. Who knows if Sapp/Clark/Hibbert get any minutes as sophomores if they were in Vee's shoes. Also, Henry Sims would be an example of someone making a huge jump from their sophomore to junior seasons.
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Dec 26, 2010 23:07:21 GMT -5
TBird is spot on. But I think the real issue with respect to Vee (and Markel and Henry and any of our up and coming guys for that matter) is how they deal with the change in roles, not the change in minutes per se. We saw in the last 10 minutes of the Loyola game how a lineup without any of our upperclassmen struggled to get into their sets and struggled to create offense. The issue for all those guys, and especially Vee because in my opinion he's going to be a big time offensive player for us next year, is how they go from being the 4th or 5th option to guys who have to create offense.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 26, 2010 23:55:52 GMT -5
I like both Vee and Markel a lot. Markel's got a nice handle, good quickness, good decision-making skills and his shot will fall. I've seen a lot of vocal leadership out of him as well. That said, Vee is incredibly impressive. I think he's much more in the Ashanti Cook / Jessie Sapp / Jason Clark mode than a point -- and that may dictate when he plays, but I can't believe you brought in Aaron Bowen and Jabril Trawick as guys who should be taking Vee's minutes. I'm sorry for not suggesting Bowen and Jabril should get zero playing time thus allowing only FOUR perimeter players to get on the court all season long for Gtown next year. What in the world was I thinking? But seriously though there are only six perimeter guys next year for the Hoyas and you can't think that only four of those dudes will be getting run. Regardless of who Aaron and Jabril take minutes from, they will get their share and that will be a good thing even if they aren't as good as the four guys ahead of them because those other four guys will need rest. Also let me mention that there are those in and around the program who think very highly of Bowen's potential. He may be the most athletic guy on the team with size and some skill to boot. And Jabril wil come to GU even more highly regarded than Vee did. Doesn't mean he wil automatically be better, but let's give him a chance before dismissing the notion he could be good enough to earn minutes next season. I think we can all agree it will be best for the team if he and Aaron are good enough to get those minutes.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 27, 2010 0:04:34 GMT -5
I think we will see Markel develop that ability to create by next season. He can already create better than most on the team, he's just lacking in experience. About four times in limited minutes I've seen Markel drive into the teeth of the defense, draw the attention of the defenders and then dish to a teammate for a dunk/layup. I haven't seen Jason or Vee do that much if at all. I haven't even seen Chris do much of that. Chris is pasing the ball wonderfully but his assists are mostly in kickout to guys on the perimeter or passes on the fastbreak. His interior passes come mostly through pick and rolls and from passes he makes from the perimeter into the paint (a couple to Julian like that). Markel is a drive, draw and dish type of player. Or as Dick Vitale used to call if (forgive me for using his nicknames) a 3-D Man. Austin is also pretty good at this as well when he wants to.
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Post by jd369 on Dec 27, 2010 0:07:24 GMT -5
Vee can score in many different ways, he has excellent handles, from what I've seen he handles the pressure well. Sure he's not a natural point guard, but that hasn't stopped guys like say a scottie reynolds from leading a team. What's most surprising to me is this so called "jump" that Vee has made from last year to this year. To me, he was impressive from the first time I saw him out there in a Hoya uni, the difference is he actually geys a few minutes consistently now. I really hope he starts next year.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 27, 2010 0:16:47 GMT -5
Can anyone remember the last time we had a player who saw very limited minutes his first two seasons and then broke out as a Junior/Senior. The most notable example in Hoya history has to be Smitty. Anyone else of a more recent vintage? Usually the stars of a team get big minutes as freshman. This doesn't really matter. For two staright years Vee had to contend with some studs ahead of him. I'd be more concerned if he couldn't beat out, say, a Ray Reed or an Irvin Church.
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Buckets
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Post by Buckets on Dec 27, 2010 0:51:27 GMT -5
Can anyone remember the last time we had a player who saw very limited minutes his first two seasons and then broke out as a Junior/Senior. The most notable example in Hoya history has to be Smitty. Anyone else of a more recent vintage? Usually the stars of a team get big minutes as freshman. As TBird pointed out, there hasn't been a Hoya team this stacked in a while. I highly doubt the top 5 is in Vee's future, but Russell Westbrook closed out the 2006-7 UCLA season playing 61 minutes in their last dozen games behind Collison, Afflalo, and Shipp, and 15 months later was going 4th overall. Sanford is not Westbrook, but he did play 21 minutes in the WVU game that Freeman missed last year -- so I think the trust is there, but the minutes just aren't right now. I think there's a potential that we start seeing Sanford more as the season goes on. It might take another David Cubillan, Dominique Jones, Armon Bassett, or Ramone Moore to force III's hand on it, but our perimeter defense is just not all that good. Clark and Sanford have similar frames but Vee moves his feet so much better than Clark does. It's also worth nothing that we're playing something resembling a ten-man rotation that is definitely going to get shortened as we go into Big East play -- I think that Sanford may end up absorbing a lot of Starks' minutes.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 27, 2010 1:23:48 GMT -5
I'm sorry for not suggesting Bowen and Jabril should get zero playing time thus allowing only FOUR perimeter players to get on the court all season long for Gtown next year. What in the world was I thinking? But seriously though there are only six perimeter guys next year for the Hoyas and you can't think that only four of those dudes will be getting run. Regardless of who Aaron and Jabril take minutes from, they will get their share and that will be a good thing even if they aren't as good as the four guys ahead of them because those other four guys will need rest. Of course Aaron and Jabril could earn minutes and will play minutes (although I can see a scenario where they don't see a lot as well, if Benimon is playing the 3 and we run a 3 man guard rotation). But throwing the 3 into the discussion, that's 120 mpg. Even if the starters didn't include Vee and they played 30 mpg, that's still thirty minutes of time out there. Who's most likely to grab the vast majority of that? And I wouldn't be throwing minutes to guys for development reasons over winning games. Of course, I'm not yet as sold on Markel being 30 mpg - ready next year. He could be, but I wouldn't do it now. I'm not dismissing Bowen's potential. I'm simply curious as to how you can carve out large chunks of time for him over a player with more experience and better performance? I guess my confusion is why people think Vee won't be one of the top 3 (and I think top 2) guards next year. We can haggle over Markel -- I think Vee will be better next year -- but I can see arguments. But a Top 3 guard is getting 20-30 mpg on this team, I think.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 27, 2010 1:30:13 GMT -5
Someone asked me above why I thought Vee, despite showing signs of possibly breaking out next year, will need to change his game dramatically and as a result may go through some growing pains. I think it basically comes down to transitioning from a small minute guy to a big minute guy. Pacing of play. Consistent shot selection and decision making. Playing smart with 2-3-4 fouls. Shooting pressure FTs at end of game when winded. Adjusting to changes the defense throws at you throughout the course of the game. Ball handling against pressure. There are a lot of things that Vee doesn't have to deal with right now. Things that he will deal with with more time next year. Things that more seasoned players have experience with, understand, and are unfazed by if they are good. I guess my point in my previous post is that while all this is logical, it doesn't really seem to have much of a negative effect on performance. Players who perform well in limited time tend to perform well in larger amounts of time. Maybe the above it all hooey; maybe it has limited effect. Maybe the comfort level comes quickly. Maybe the assurance of minutes and getting into the flow offsets it. Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to often effect results. It happens quite a bit across basketball, but the fact that it doesn't happen more often would be more a function of roster than not seeing performance get better. If I were attacking the case for Vee Sanford, it would be sample size on his performance.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 27, 2010 2:59:52 GMT -5
I'm not dismissing Bowen's potential. I'm simply curious as to how you can carve out large chunks of time for him over a player with more experience and better performance? First of all I am not carving large chunks of time out of anyone by suggesting Bowen and Jabril will be getting minutes. If they get 2010-2011 Vee or Markel-like minutes, how is that a lot of time? Secondly, I'm not saying all the time will be taken from Vee. There are three other returning players on the perimeter after all. But since I don't have Vee as a starter and since I have Aaron and Jabril getting run at the two and (mostly) the three, I'm concluding there won't be enough playing time for Vee to average 30 minutes per game. That's just an opinion. Last of all unless you have a crystal ball you can't say with 100% certainty which player will provide the "better performance". So let's slow down a bit.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 27, 2010 11:46:49 GMT -5
When I said a player with "more experience and better performance" I was referring to the fact that Vee has more experience and has performed better than Aaron Bowen so far to date. No crystal ball.
I generally hate these discussions because it often requires tearing down players, so I just want to say I see a ton of potential in Bowen -- I think he can start at the 2 at some point if his shot comes around as people think and if he works hard enough. The natural talent is there.
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Post by HometownHoya on Dec 27, 2010 12:50:25 GMT -5
Haha so I have been visiting family over the holidays and they were all talking about how they had just gotten Roy jerseys when I mentioned I wanted a Vee jersey!
Comeon G-town let me get that #11!!
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 27, 2010 13:59:44 GMT -5
Vee is going to be very solid. I think he can contribute throughout the Big East if given a chance. No reason not to use pressure defense --starting in South bend-- and utilize all 5 of the guards on the bench. Don't understand why Jerelle would ever play the 3 unless he can develop some consistent shot.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 27, 2010 14:05:13 GMT -5
Vee is going to be very solid. I think he can contribute throughout the Big East if given a chance. No reason not to use pressure defense --starting in South bend-- and utilize all 5 of the guards on the bench. Don't understand why Jerelle would ever play the 3 unless he can develop some consistent shot. He's played the 3, though my thoughts on Jerelle getting time at the three was more next year, and assuming he does improve his shot. I can see a pro Jaren Jackson-type role where he dedicates himself to defense and hitting the trey.
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 27, 2010 14:10:53 GMT -5
I understand, but what have you seen to indicate that Jerelle can shoot. I see him as a high energy, high effort but limited skill player.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 27, 2010 14:26:42 GMT -5
I understand, but what have you seen to indicate that Jerelle can shoot. I see him as a high energy, high effort but limited skill player. He can't. What I've seen is a guy who works his tail off. He's 19 years old, and his set shot isn't that atrocious. I don't expect him to be doing cross-over fadeaways from 19 ft with a hand in his face, but there's no reason why he can't work his way to a respectable corner three. You can tell he's improved certain parts of his game, and if he focuses on D and making some open shots, I think he can be a strong contributor as he progresses. These guys are 17-21 year olds, for the most part. They've generally received mediocre instruction at best throughout their youth, and most of them haven't ever worked at anything really hard, not in the way you need to practice. It's not just hours, it's hours doing things right. Improvement is the norm in college, and talented kids who start with low production have more upside than average. It's like with Henry -- half the board is shocked he can pass like that. He's always had the skill -- it was evident from Day 1. As he's said, it's been putting in the work. Jerelle seems like he will put in the work. And there's a chance he'll never develop a decent shot and there's a chance he will. Frankly, the place he can best help the team is at the 3 -- his height keeps him from being a great option at the 4 for me in many games but he could be a Jaron Brown-esque beast at the three. I can completely see Jerelle mauling some Top-10 ranked hotshot freshman in a year or two, holding him 1-10 shooting and making him cry. The ability to hit an open three is a big difference in how much he'll help our team -- those kinds of players are ideal for us. And I say this as a guy who would give most of Jerelle's minutes right now to Vee.
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