rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Sept 7, 2010 10:18:54 GMT -5
Why, is that pastor going to shoot them? No wait, a billion semi-animals that have the mental and/or moral capacity of children are going to kill a bunch of innocent people, and since we smart elite types can't bring ourselves to judge them either, we might as well blame the provocateur. The absolute freedoms of the First Amendment were so last week.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 7, 2010 10:25:54 GMT -5
You know, it's legal and there's nothing that can be done to stop it. With that said, artists have used the Bible and representations of Jesus in a variety of ways that have been described as blasphemous. I'm concerned about mass self-censorship, especially since various radical sects of Islam also favor covering females and consider listening to music against the will of Allah.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 7, 2010 10:29:14 GMT -5
Why, is that pastor going to shoot them? No wait, a billion semi-animals that have the mental and/or moral capacity of children are going to kill a bunch of innocent people, and since we smart elite types can't bring ourselves to judge them either, we might as well blame the provocateur. The absolute freedoms of the First Amendment were so last week. Read my post, I say right there that what this guy is doing is legal, as protected by the 1st Amendment. However, it's pretty obvious that this action will cause a reaction around the world that will imperil the lives of Americans, both military and civilian. Does that make the actions that will kill Americans right or justified? No, but that doesn't change the fact that they will happen. It's like poking a rabid dog with a stick, or more accurately shooting a rabid dog from long distance with a pellet gun while police are trying to pacify it, then running and hiding and being so proud of yourself while the dog attacks the police.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 7, 2010 10:30:07 GMT -5
Why, is that pastor going to shoot them? No wait, a billion semi-animals that have the mental and/or moral capacity of children are going to kill a bunch of innocent people, and since we smart elite types can't bring ourselves to judge them either, we might as well blame the provocateur. The absolute freedoms of the First Amendment were so last week. Read my post, I say right there that what this guy is doing is legal, as protected by the 1st Amendment. However, it's pretty obvious that this action will cause a reaction around the world that will imperil the lives of Americans, both military and civilian. Does that make the actions that will kill Americans right or justified? No, but that doesn't change the fact that they will happen. It's like poking a rabid dog with a stick, or more accurately shooting a rabid dog from long distance with a pellet gun while police are trying to pacify it, then running and hiding and being so proud of yourself while the dog attacks the police. So, in this analogy, Islam is a "rabid dog"?
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HoyaNyr320
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Post by HoyaNyr320 on Sept 7, 2010 10:30:55 GMT -5
Why, is that pastor going to shoot them? No wait, a billion semi-animals that have the mental and/or moral capacity of children are going to kill a bunch of innocent people, and since we smart elite types can't bring ourselves to judge them either, we might as well blame the provocateur. The absolute freedoms of the First Amendment were so last week. The original poster noted that he's free to do this but probably should not. Your post is ironic, as apparently a pastor's First Amendment rights to burn the Koran deserves more consideration than a group of Muslim's First Amendment rights to build a mosque and pray inside a mosque. I agree that we generally should not base our actions on what the terrorists or extremists think about them, but burning the Koran is not just disrespectful to extremists, but moderate Muslims around the world. There are also Muslims out there who are not extremists or terrorists yet, but are vulnerable to their message due to poverty and loss of life in their villages due to accidental bombings, etc. This is the group that Petraeus is talking about.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 7, 2010 10:33:03 GMT -5
Read my post, I say right there that what this guy is doing is legal, as protected by the 1st Amendment. However, it's pretty obvious that this action will cause a reaction around the world that will imperil the lives of Americans, both military and civilian. Does that make the actions that will kill Americans right or justified? No, but that doesn't change the fact that they will happen. It's like poking a rabid dog with a stick, or more accurately shooting a rabid dog from long distance with a pellet gun while police are trying to pacify it, then running and hiding and being so proud of yourself while the dog attacks the police. So, in this analogy, Islam is a "rabid dog"? Radical Islam is, yes. Not much different from radical Christianity, radical Judaism, radical Hinduism, and so on. They all kill people. Of course, all these religions are very respectable and peaceful in their moderate forms. The radicals are only a small deluded minority that are completely divorced from the spirit of the religion.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 7, 2010 10:37:22 GMT -5
Personally, what this guy is doing I find despicable, but I think people are giving him too much attention.
The guy is looney tunes. He doesn't have a "church." He's got a few dozen (at the VERY most) nutbar followers.
I'm not blaming Petraeus. I'm sure he spoke because of protests in Muslim areas, including his area of concern. It just bugs me that people use a guy like this as a symbol or representative of something. It's like I noted (snarkily, to be sure) last week. That nutjob Lee didn't "represent" Al Gore or environmentalists. He represents idiocy.
What should happen is that, if he goes through with it, someone should show up with a U-Haul truck filled with 50,000 additional copies of the Koran, show them to him, and announce: "We're going to be putting these in every library. Congratulations. What did you accomplish? Other than to prove you're a dick, which we already knew."
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 7, 2010 10:38:19 GMT -5
So, in this analogy, Islam is a "rabid dog"? Radical Islam is, yes. Not much different from radical Christianity, radical Judaism, radical Hinduism, and so on. They all kill people. Of course, all these religions are very respectable and peaceful in their moderate forms. The radicals are only a small deluded minority that are completely divorced from the spirit of the religion. But if Radical Islam is the "rabid dog" that we're trying not to antagonize, isn't that a losing battle? If it's not the Koran, it's the support for Israel, or the permissive Western culture, or the support for repressive Western governments, or the fact that Wendy's has a Baconator. Radical Islam can find something that antagonizes it and its followers.
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 7, 2010 10:40:10 GMT -5
The Baconator sucks by the way. I wouldn't mind someone declaring jihad on that. ;D
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Post by hoyawatcher on Sept 7, 2010 11:32:26 GMT -5
There is a logical argument in all of this that Catholics should have sent a hit team after Maplethorp and rioted in the streets outside of the Vatican and/or Georgetown. I know I know .........
While I think the "pastor" is a nutjob schmuck and the reality of what he is doing will probably cost someone their life, his action does point out the absurdity of some of the positions we hold re: Islam. A "moderate" religion that is now probably going to riot in 5 different countries over this.
But this is the time when the old expression of being right - but dead right - has some literal meaning unfortunately. And yes I know "we" have to be the adult in the relationship but it still is irritating.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 7, 2010 12:02:07 GMT -5
A "moderate" religion that is now probably going to riot in 5 different countries over this. Islam will not riot over this. Some Muslims will riot over this. There is a difference. Nobody writes articles about the billions of Muslims that won't riot over this. However, they'll still think less of the US about this, making them less likely to work with us in the future, all at the exact point in time where the US needs the assistance of moderate Muslims around the world. All this guy is doing is alienating the people we need as allies and inspiring our enemies.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Sept 7, 2010 12:04:15 GMT -5
[ All this guy is doing is alienating the people we need as allies and inspiring our enemies. Sounds a bit like the Obama administration's treatment of Israel...
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Sept 7, 2010 12:08:13 GMT -5
Why, is that pastor going to shoot them? No wait, a billion semi-animals that have the mental and/or moral capacity of children are going to kill a bunch of innocent people, and since we smart elite types can't bring ourselves to judge them either, we might as well blame the provocateur. The absolute freedoms of the First Amendment were so last week. The original poster noted that he's free to do this but probably should not. Your post is ironic, as apparently a pastor's First Amendment rights to burn the Koran deserves more consideration than a group of Muslim's First Amendment rights to build a mosque and pray inside a mosque. I agree that we generally should not base our actions on what the terrorists or extremists think about them, but burning the Koran is not just disrespectful to extremists, but moderate Muslims around the world. There are also Muslims out there who are not extremists or terrorists yet, but are vulnerable to their message due to poverty and loss of life in their villages due to accidental bombings, etc. This is the group that Petraeus is talking about. +1 It is important to reiterate that Christianity is a religion of peace, and Islam is a religion of war.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 7, 2010 14:14:10 GMT -5
Depictions of Muhammed are forbidden according to many interpretations of Islam and rile people up. So do Trey Parker and Matt Stone have the blood of American soldiers on their hands for their episodes featuring Muhammed?
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Sept 7, 2010 14:27:32 GMT -5
Can we get back to a more important issue? My limited understanding of the 9/11 hijackers' motivation includes that they were promised some number of virgins if they pulled off this attack. I think this proves what a backward, foolish group they really were. Maybe it's just me, but if you had to kill yourself to score, wouldn't you rather party with the sluts? Just asking.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 7, 2010 14:46:29 GMT -5
Can we get back to a more important issue? My limited understanding of the 9/11 hijackers' motivation includes that they were promised some number of virgins if they pulled off this attack. I think this proves what a backward, foolish group they really were. Maybe it's just me, but if you had to kill yourself to score, wouldn't you rather party with the sluts? Just asking. You're getting a real answer for this one. With massive unemployment, it's increasingly difficult for men to marry. You therefore have lots of sexually frustrated men who don't have a chance to marry because they can't get a job. Given radical Islam's focus on sexual purity (a popular cosmetic surgery in the area is hymenoplasty, i.e., trying to "re-virginate" a woman), a proposal for radicals without jobs is remarkably well-tailored.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Sept 7, 2010 14:54:15 GMT -5
Can we get back to a more important issue? My limited understanding of the 9/11 hijackers' motivation includes that they were promised some number of virgins if they pulled off this attack. I think this proves what a backward, foolish group they really were. Maybe it's just me, but if you had to kill yourself to score, wouldn't you rather party with the sluts? Just asking. You're getting a real answer for this one. With massive unemployment, it's increasingly difficult for men to marry. You therefore have lots of sexually frustrated men who don't have a chance to marry because they can't get a job. Given radical Islam's focus on sexual purity (a popular cosmetic surgery in the area is hymenoplasty, i.e., trying to "re-virginate" a woman), a proposal for radicals without jobs is remarkably well-tailored. That type of thinking, coupled with the excruciating pain I experienced while taking my child on a camel ride at the Philadelphia Zoo explains fully to me why these people are so damned angry all the time.
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Post by hoyawatcher on Sept 7, 2010 14:55:41 GMT -5
A "moderate" religion that is now probably going to riot in 5 different countries over this. Islam will not riot over this. Some Muslims will riot over this. There is a difference. Nobody writes articles about the billions of Muslims that won't riot over this. However, they'll still think less of the US about this, making them less likely to work with us in the future, all at the exact point in time where the US needs the assistance of moderate Muslims around the world. All this guy is doing is alienating the people we need as allies and inspiring our enemies. I fully agree that what this guy is doing will alienate the people we need as allies. He is being dead right. I also believe that if Christian leaders (Imams) were calling for riots and killings over Bible burnings, and Christian leaders were sending out hit squads for authors who made caricatures of Jesus and Christian controlled countries were stoning adulterers and facilitating the assassination of Muslim evangelists, we wouldn't be bending over backward to try to make the case it is a peaceful and moderate religion. Now having said that I fully agree it is in our interest to try to go 90% of the way to their side and not expect this to be "fair" for things like our press being scared to death of offending Islam because of their violence but eager to put forward offensive issues for Christians. We need to move Islam toward us. I get it. Agree with it. I just find the double standard irritating. I'll get over it.
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The Stig
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Post by The Stig on Sept 7, 2010 15:55:18 GMT -5
Can we get back to a more important issue? My limited understanding of the 9/11 hijackers' motivation includes that they were promised some number of virgins if they pulled off this attack. I think this proves what a backward, foolish group they really were. Maybe it's just me, but if you had to kill yourself to score, wouldn't you rather party with the sluts? Just asking. You're getting a real answer for this one. With massive unemployment, it's increasingly difficult for men to marry. You therefore have lots of sexually frustrated men who don't have a chance to marry because they can't get a job. Given radical Islam's focus on sexual purity (a popular cosmetic surgery in the area is hymenoplasty, i.e., trying to "re-virginate" a woman), a proposal for radicals without jobs is remarkably well-tailored. Although that doesn't really explain things for the 9/11 hijackers, who were all from well-to-do families. Unemployment certainly wasn't in their futures. People play up the tons of virgins thing too much. Most radical Muslims don't turn radical because of the promised rewards in the afterlife, they turn because they think that Islam is being attacked by a fundamentally evil enemy (the West). They believe that Islam is at war with the West, who is on a crusade to destroy Islam, and that they must become warriors to defend Islam against its enemies. A good book to read on the topic is Terror in the Mind of God by Mark Juergensmeyer. If you prefer movies, The Battle of Algiers is the best there is to understand the motivations/thinking of terrorists.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Sept 8, 2010 14:59:32 GMT -5
Couple of points. 1. No one has mentioned the American Muslims in these comments about the FL Church that want to burn the Koran. Is there any group in America that is more acceptable to attack than American-Muslims? of whom there are MILLIONS? How can it be considered "acceptable" to denounce and demonize an entire religious group? Or an ethnic group? Surely board members know American History? Italians and Irish were, at one time, subject to severe discrimination ("Irish need not apply"). I'd be willing to be at least 50% of GU Students and Alumni are Irish and Italians. Other groups who have or are suffering from discrimination include Jews, Chinese, Japanese, African-Americans, Hispanics... you name it. So how can it be that so many have forgotten, or make excuses, or claim "this is different". Is it? Why? The millions of American Muslims had nothing to do with 9/11 and nothing to do with extremists around the world. 2. Intolerants. America's religious leaders don't seem to agree that it is OK to discriminate against Muslim Americans -- or any other Muslims -- and to be so totally INTOLERANT of other religions and points of view. Concern Is Voiced Over Religious IntoleranceEXCERPTS WASHINGTON — Prominent Christian, Jewish and Muslim leaders held an extraordinary “emergency summit” meeting in the capital on Tuesday to denounce what they called “the derision, misinformation and outright bigotry” aimed at American Muslims during the controversy over the proposed Islamic community center near ground zero.
“This is not America,” said Cardinal Theodore E. McCarrick, the emeritus Roman Catholic archbishop of Washington, flanked by three dozen clergy members and religious leaders at a packed news conference at the National Press Club. “America was not built on hate.”
They said they were alarmed that the “anti-Muslim frenzy” and attacks at several mosques had the potential not only to tear apart the country, but also to undermine the reputation of America as a model of religious freedom and diversity. But we can see right here on this board, comprised largely of Georgetown students and graduates, that for many the concepts of tolerance, equality, understanding and acceptance have given way to those of blame, attack, and outright discrimination.
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