guru
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Post by guru on Mar 4, 2010 15:46:12 GMT -5
Um, Marquette has gone 9-1 in its last 10 games. ND's little 3-game streak including two home games and a slumping team whose leading scorer was playing with undiagnosed diabetes doesn't quite measure up. Throw in that this game is at the Bradley Center and you'd be crazy to "fully expect ND to take down Marquette pretty easily." It continues to amaze me how just because Marquette's SOS or RPI isn't top notch, they get dismissed on this board as "not very good." They also beat us, so you'd think there'd be some respect. Not only have they won 9 of 10, the 7-point loss to Pitt in that span is their largest margin of defeat since December. This team is in every single game clawing for victories. Their reward is a #5 seed. Um, I didn't say that Marquette was "not very good." I just said I expect ND to beat them - I actually think ND is playing like one of the top 2 teams in the conference. Marquette is definitely a good team.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 4, 2010 15:51:02 GMT -5
What's the latest on this? I think this is a huge distinction, as I fully expect ND to take down Marquette pretty easily this weekend. That team is playing as well as anybody in the conference not wearing Orange. Um, Marquette has gone 9-1 in its last 10 games. ND's little 3-game streak including two home games and a slumping team whose leading scorer was playing with undiagnosed diabetes doesn't quite measure up. Throw in that this game is at the Bradley Center and you'd be crazy to "fully expect ND to take down Marquette pretty easily." See my last comment. I really didn't mean to dis Marquette - I just think ND is playing that well. Marquette is good, but they've had it pretty easy schedule wise with Depaul and Providence twice this season. Maybe "pretty easily" was going too far. How about if I just think ND is going to win? Does that statement make it past your security screening for all posts Marquette-related?
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 4, 2010 18:02:22 GMT -5
Pomeroy puts Marquette at about 80% to win, and I think that's about right.
As for my obsession, if The Hoya or Casual Hoya really wanted to do an interesting series, they'd talk to those of us living deep in enemy territory (in Syracuse, in Milwaukee, in Storrs/Hartford, in Louisville, in Morgantown, and to a lesser extent in Philly (NY & Chicago are too big/not focused enough on their local BE teams to count)), about the intensely miserable experience of being surrounded by morons who don't deserve a more successful basketball team than the Hoyas, but for one reason or other, for a few years here or there, get one.
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Post by westendhoya on Mar 4, 2010 19:23:31 GMT -5
Mods- Can we change the seeding scenarios on the front page. While it is true ND cannot be worse than an 8th seed if it wins, it does not mean we necessarily are 8th or worse. Every other site I am seeing says that if we win and Louisville loses to Syracuse we are no worse than 7th (7th if ND wins, 6th of they lose). Can you send me a PM with the other sites? Thanks.--AdminStill no change on the front page?
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Mar 4, 2010 21:46:06 GMT -5
As for my obsession, if The Hoya or Casual Hoya really wanted to do an interesting series, they'd talk to those of us living deep in enemy territory (in Syracuse, in Milwaukee, in Storrs/Hartford, in Louisville, in Morgantown, and to a lesser extent in Philly (NY & Chicago are too big/not focused enough on their local BE teams to count)), about the intensely miserable experience of being surrounded by morons who don't deserve a more successful basketball team than the Hoyas, but for one reason or other, for a few years here or there, get one. This was my idea for a recurring series for the Hoop Club Blog, but we couldn't pull it off this year. Still on the table and I've always thought it'd be a cool series.
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FLHoya
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Post by FLHoya on Mar 4, 2010 23:11:48 GMT -5
UPDATED 3/4/10 11:00 pm (after "This is why you're Providence")
Every BE team has one game remaining.
No mini-conferences right now. The following tiebreakers prevailed:
--Pitt over WVU for third on beating Cuse.
--ND over GU for 8th on HTH
--Cincy over UConn for 11th on HTH
--RU over SJU for 13th on HTH
(9) USF/(16) Depaul vs. (8) Georgetown ------------> (1) Syracuse
(12) UConn/(13) Rutgers vs. (5) Marquette -------------> (4) West Virginia
(10) Seton Hall/(15) Providence vs. (7) Notre Dame ------------> (2) Villanova
(11) Cincinnati/(14) St. John's vs. (6) Louisville -------------------> (3) Pittsburgh
This weekend's games:
SJU-Depaul (Fri.) GU-Cincinnati WVU-Nova Cuse-Louisville ND-Marquette UConn-USF RU-Pitt SHU-Prov
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Post by hoyawoodhoopster on Mar 5, 2010 0:01:45 GMT -5
I've been out of the loop forever -- try to follow the Hoyas in Asia for a month, my friends -- and as an English major, all of this math makes my head hurt. But is there anyone, based on any scenario, that doesn't think that it's critical that we win, health issues and all, on Saturday? If so, please explain it to us who are impaired. Thanks, and looking forward to meeting some of the great posters on this board next week in New York.
HH
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Post by JohnnyJones on Mar 5, 2010 0:22:09 GMT -5
When ND beat UConn last night I was thinking that the worst part of that was that if we lose Saturday, the best we could do is an 8 seed (as long as USF loses). I now think that is wrong. I think we can still get the 7 seed if we lose and:
ND loses; USF loses; S. Hall wins; and Nova wins
In that case, GU, ND and SHU would all be 9-9 and would have 1-1 mini-conference records. Then I think our win over Nova (who would finish in 2nd after having beat WVU) would put us 1st in that mini-conference and give us the 7th seed.
Does that sound right?
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Post by westendhoya on Mar 5, 2010 0:35:49 GMT -5
When ND beat UConn last night I was thinking that the worst part of that was that if we lose Saturday, the best we could do is an 8 seed (as long as USF loses). I now think that is wrong. I think we can still get the 7 seed if we lose and: ND loses; USF loses; S. Hall wins; and Nova wins In that case, GU, ND and SHU would all be 9-9 and would have 1-1 mini-conference records. Then I think our win over Nova (who would finish in 2nd after having beat WVU) would put us 1st in that mini-conference and give us the 7th seed. Does that sound right? Not unless the rest of the teams in mini-conference are 0-2 vs. Nova
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Post by JohnnyJones on Mar 5, 2010 1:14:45 GMT -5
When ND beat UConn last night I was thinking that the worst part of that was that if we lose Saturday, the best we could do is an 8 seed (as long as USF loses). I now think that is wrong. I think we can still get the 7 seed if we lose and: ND loses; USF loses; S. Hall wins; and Nova wins In that case, GU, ND and SHU would all be 9-9 and would have 1-1 mini-conference records. Then I think our win over Nova (who would finish in 2nd after having beat WVU) would put us 1st in that mini-conference and give us the 7th seed. Does that sound right? Not unless the rest of the teams in mini-conference are 0-2 vs. Nova Yes, that's right. So I flipped it and now have WV beating Nova and Pitt winning Saturday so that those three all finish at 13-5. In that case, we are 2-2 against those teams and ND is 2-1 -- but the fewer losses would not prevail as far as I can tell from the examples given (and S. Hall is 1-4 against that group so I assume they drop out). We then go to Marquette - bot GU and ND are 0-1. Then Lville - and we get the 7 seed because our 1-0 beats ND's 0-1!! How about that? It seems right to me, but I keep getting these slightly wrong (HoyaChris corrected me on something yesterday). Maybe I will just wait until Saturday around 4 p.m.
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Post by happyhoya1979 on Mar 5, 2010 1:30:44 GMT -5
Notre Dame will likely beat Marquette now that it has a team dedicated to playing basketball rather than standing around watching Luke Harangody not play defense, travel and score meaningless points in losses every time they journeyed outside of South Bend. I would not want to play them again. UND could even win the whole B/E now.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 5, 2010 9:33:50 GMT -5
At this point, the seeding scenario is about the best we could hope for. The way I look at it is this - There is a very good chance that we will have the 6 seed if we win. ND winning in Marquette would be a pretty significant result, trumped only by the result that Lville would beat Syracuse twice in one season. Even the times are good for us. We play at noon at Saturday with no distractions. Win, we get the bye, and we can sit back to see if the best case scenario plays out.
If, on the other hand, we don't beat Cincy, who really cares quite honestly? Losing 5 of 6. Ouch! At least playing Depaul on Tuesday would give us a chance to win a frakkin game. We cant harbor any illusions about this team if we are losing to Cincy tomorrow. IMO, we would be in a pretty bad place, and I would say that there isnt much hope for us to beat anybody, save a huge recovery by Austin.
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guru
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Post by guru on Mar 5, 2010 9:36:45 GMT -5
At this point, the seeding scenario is about the best we could hope for. The way I look at it is this - There is a very good chance that we will have the 6 seed if we win. ND winning in Marquette would be a pretty significant result, trumped only by the result that Lville would beat Syracuse twice in one season. Even the times are good for us. We play at noon at Saturday with no distractions. Win, we get the bye, and we can sit back to see if the best case scenario plays out. If, on the other hand, we don't beat Cincy, who really cares quite honestly? Losing 5 of 6. Ouch! At least playing Depaul on Tuesday would give us a chance to win a frakkin game. We cant harbor any illusions about this team if we are losing to Cincy tomorrow. IMO, we would be in a pretty bad place, and I would say that there isnt much hope for us to beat anybody, save a huge recovery by Austin. We've lost 4 out of 6 5 right now - aren't we already in a pretty bad place? But I agree, a win tomorrow at least gives us a little momentum going to NYC. But unless we play a LOT better tomorrow, I don't see how people could really harbor any illusions, given recent results and performances.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Mar 5, 2010 9:42:48 GMT -5
Question for the tie-breaker gurus:
3 teams are in a mini-conference and have the same record in the mini-conference (say 1-1). So you then start going down the standings.
The question is, what happens if one of the teams drops out? Say, for example, Team A and Team B are 1-0 against the top team, but Team C is 0-1. Do you continue down the standings with Team A and B - or after Team C has dropped out, do you then just flip to the two-team procedures (i.e. head to head)?
I hope that you just keep going down the standings because I believe that would be the only way we can still get the 7 seed with a loss (based on my post above).
So I disagree with the sentiment that who cares what seed we are if we lose Saturday. I think the draw is still much better as the 6/7 over the 8/9 (and I would much prefer night games!).
HoyaChris - this was the same issue you commented on the other day, but I am not sure you had it right. In Step 1 of the mini-conference rules, the last sentence would clearly bring this scenario (three teams with identical records in mini-conference) to Step 2. In Step 2, it says to continue down the standings "until one team gains an advantage" [emphasis added] - once you get to Step 2, it never says if you get down to 2 teams, revert back to the two-team procedures - I don't think?
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HoyaChris
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Post by HoyaChris on Mar 5, 2010 10:25:26 GMT -5
Question for the tie-breaker gurus: 3 teams are in a mini-conference and have the same record in the mini-conference (say 1-1). So you then start going down the standings. The question is, what happens if one of the teams drops out? Say, for example, Team A and Team B are 1-0 against the top team, but Team C is 0-1. Do you continue down the standings with Team A and B - or after Team C has dropped out, do you then just flip to the two-team procedures (i.e. head to head)? I hope that you just keep going down the standings because I believe that would be the only way we can still get the 7 seed with a loss (based on my post above). So I disagree with the sentiment that who cares what seed we are if we lose Saturday. I think the draw is still much better as the 6/7 over the 8/9 (and I would much prefer night games!). HoyaChris - this was the same issue you commented on the other day, but I am not sure you had it right. In Step 1 of the mini-conference rules, the last sentence would clearly bring this scenario (three teams with identical records in mini-conference) to Step 2. In Step 2, it says to continue down the standings "until one team gains an advantage" [emphasis added] - once you get to Step 2, it never says if you get down to 2 teams, revert back to the two-team procedures - I don't think? I have reread the procedures about 10 times and I am forced to conclude that they are completely ambiguous. I think if this was litigated it would end up with a hung jury.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 5, 2010 11:58:26 GMT -5
At this point, the seeding scenario is about the best we could hope for. The way I look at it is this - There is a very good chance that we will have the 6 seed if we win. ND winning in Marquette would be a pretty significant result, trumped only by the result that Lville would beat Syracuse twice in one season. Even the times are good for us. We play at noon at Saturday with no distractions. Win, we get the bye, and we can sit back to see if the best case scenario plays out. If, on the other hand, we don't beat Cincy, who really cares quite honestly? Losing 5 of 6. Ouch! At least playing Depaul on Tuesday would give us a chance to win a frakkin game. We cant harbor any illusions about this team if we are losing to Cincy tomorrow. IMO, we would be in a pretty bad place, and I would say that there isnt much hope for us to beat anybody, save a huge recovery by Austin. We've lost 4 out of 6 5 right now - aren't we already in a pretty bad place? But I agree, a win tomorrow at least gives us a little momentum going to NYC. But unless we play a LOT better tomorrow, I don't see how people could really harbor any illusions, given recent results and performances. I hear you, but tomorrow would be the back-breaker, IMO. If we cant get up for this game, than I am not even sure we are beating DePaul on Tuesday. There is no excuse for this game. It's one thing to lose to ND hours after learning our best player couldnt play. Even without Austin, Cincy with a week to prepare should not be a dud for this team.
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Mar 5, 2010 12:04:44 GMT -5
So I disagree with the sentiment that who cares what seed we are if we lose Saturday. I think the draw is still much better as the 6/7 over the 8/9 (and I would much prefer night games!).
I respect the opinion, but I just dont see what you think we are going to get out of the BET if we lose tomorrow. In all honesty, if we end the season losing to Rutgers, Syracuse, ND, WVU and Cincy, who exactly are we looking to matchup against in the Big East tournament? We are a dead team walking if we lose tomorrow. I've been saying that all week, and I stand by it. Obviously, I am not going to stop rooting for the team, but like SF mentioned in another context, a loss tomorrow is going to feel a lot like SJU last year. It will just feel like we cant beat anyone.
All that said, I do feel we will win handily tomorrow. I really hope it is because of defensive effort though. Id rather win 68-58, than go 10-15 from 3. We really need to bring back defensive intensity.
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Mar 5, 2010 12:13:03 GMT -5
Dream Revenge Scenario based on current seeding:
Round of 12: Beat USF Quarterfinals: Beat Cuse Semifinals: Beat WVU/Marquette Final: Beat Notre Dame
We can dream.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 5, 2010 13:48:26 GMT -5
Notre Dame will likely beat Marquette now that it has a team dedicated to playing basketball rather than standing around watching Luke Harangody not play defense, travel and score meaningless points in losses every time they journeyed outside of South Bend. I would not want to play them again. UND could even win the whole B/E now. I get that some people want to crown ND around here because they embarrassed us, but this is just absurd. For my money, ND beating Marquette is no more likely than Louisville beating Syracuse.
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Big Dog
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Post by Big Dog on Mar 5, 2010 13:50:41 GMT -5
We've lost 4 out of 6 5 right now - aren't we already in a pretty bad place? But I agree, a win tomorrow at least gives us a little momentum going to NYC. But unless we play a LOT better tomorrow, I don't see how people could really harbor any illusions, given recent results and performances. I hear you, but tomorrow would be the back-breaker, IMO. If we cant get up for this game, than I am not even sure we are beating DePaul on Tuesday. There is no excuse for this game. It's one thing to lose to ND hours after learning our best player couldnt play. Even without Austin, Cincy with a week to prepare should not be a dud for this team. I just don't think this is right if Austin doesn't play. I don't know that we're any better than Cincinnati (who beat us with all of the same players last season, right?) without Freeman. If Freeman doesn't play and the Hoyas lose, I just don't think it tells us much about a Hoyas team with Freeman 100% will fare in the BET. Unless we're certain that Free is playing and 100%, I just don't see the argument for treating tomorrow as a big game. There's no way its a bigger game than the Louisville game was, because as it turns out, without that victory we're probably squarely on the bubble right now.
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