ichirohoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 535
|
Post by ichirohoya on Jan 19, 2009 13:34:02 GMT -5
Even aside from his fair and correct analysis of this specific tech, Bilas makes a VERY interesting point: refs have turned themselves into a show. I think that a foul should be called in the most calm, objective way possible, as long as the players and scorers know what happened. It's then for the ANNOUNCER to broadcast to the arena what happened. Why are the refs calling charges, waving their arms around like they're trying to communicate with the guy in section 450...or land an airplane? This is the larger issue here. Its an issue in all sports, baseball umpires come to mind. Generally, officials have succeeded if at the end of the game fans can't remember anything about the game's officiating. Refs should be neither seen nor heard nor remembered. When they are very visible, it usually means they are doing something unnecessarily showy.
|
|
lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,440
|
Post by lichoya68 on Jan 19, 2009 15:22:52 GMT -5
PLEASE SEE THE POST ON BILAS TAKE ON THIS ONE IT IS VERY INTERESTING ESPECIALLY FOR A DUKIE HE GETS MY RESPECT AND I THINK HES WRIGHT YUP VERY WRIGHT GO HOYAS
|
|
Elvado
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,080
|
Post by Elvado on Jan 19, 2009 15:28:46 GMT -5
I know how excited I always am when I get a great seat to watch Jim Burr or Teddy Valentine officiate...
|
|
paranoia2
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 847
|
Post by paranoia2 on Jan 19, 2009 16:40:26 GMT -5
If Referee Cahill can pick greg's voice out of a full bench and first few rows of fans then he damn well knows the kid was the best player on the floor and the team needs him to compete against Duke on the road. Just pathetic.
|
|
FLHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Proud Member of Generation Burton
Posts: 4,544
|
Post by FLHoya on Jan 19, 2009 18:40:45 GMT -5
A few comments: 1. Jay Bilas' remarks are spot on. 2. A relevant case play (example) was posted on the officiating.com forums concerning our situation: Men: 10-5-1 Penalty: "An assessed technical foul that cannot be charged to an individual shall be charged to the head coach (ex. Art. 1.f)." (MEN) CLASS A–Unsporting Technical InfractionsA.R. 254. The official is advancing up the playing court to cover the play and as the official passes Team A’s bench with his or her back to it, someone on that bench uses profanity. The official is certain from which bench the profanity came but not from which party. RULING: When the official cannot, with assurance, determine the violator, the official shall assess a CLASS A technical foul to the head coach. The official alone shall decide to whom a technical foul shall be charged. It is not the prerogative of the coach or other bench personnel to come forward as the party guilty of unsportsmanlike bench decorum. (Rule 10-5.2.c) (Leads me to believe even further that Cahill thought Monroe was the culprit...since there is a procedure if you can't ID the culprit.) 3. On the issue of officials being "recognizable"--I'm torn. Some officials ARE at fault for being overly dramatic on the court. Ted Valentine is a well-established self-important clown of a man. Curtis Shaw is a jerkwad. Ed Hightower is an interpretive dancer in stripes. That being said...what's really at fault here are two things: 1. Referee schedules, which are overbooked and necessitate long travels in between games often on consecutive nights. Performance must certainly suffer from fatigue...not just jet lag, but jeebus how many days in a row can you eat at the food court in an airport? I remember that article someone--possibly the WashTimes--ran a couple years ago on officials and followed around Tim Higgins for a few days. Dude has a thing for chicken wings. 2. The real culprit--the Coordinators at the NCAA and Conference level are not doing enough to "spread the wealth" on marquee assignments. We're already seeing far more crossover as "big time" experienced referees take multiple conference assignments. But the real issue is that we're still seeing the same smaller group of officials always getting the "big game". It's ALWAYS Ed Hightower or Ted Valentine or Karl Hess or Tony Greene or Tim Higgins in the Final Four, year after year. You aren't seeing as much development of the middle-level of officials IMO, where there are plenty of talented guys. Put it this way--does it seem like Jim Burr constantly makes bad calls to you? If you look at how often he's selected to work BET Finals and deep rounds in the NCAA, he can't be THAT bad. I would argue a big component of the above perception is--we see Jim Burr on television ALL THE TIME. He works games in the Big East, ACC, Big Ten and Big 12...probably more. And since he's one of the more experienced officials, conferences look to him often for their marquee games. So you could see Burr on Big Monday in Norman, OK...then an ACC game in Durham on Tuesday...maybe a GU-WVU kind of game on a Thursday...then a Saturday primetime game. All big games, all on the ESPN family of networks. In big games like the above, each key play--or each referee's call--is under the microscope. If our game against Duke had proceeded without incident, but Cahill had done the Monroe technical thing the following day to a Rhode Island player, nobody would be the wiser except a few A-10 fans in Kingston. But given the magnitude of the Duke-GTown game, it earned three paragraphs of Jay Bilas' time and multiple articles. Think about how many sentences a GW game gets in the Post. As an example, here's what Ed Hightower was doing last week: 2009-01-17 46 0 0 Pittsburgh 63 Louisville 69 Louisville KY 2009-01-15 41 0 0 Purdue 63 Northwestern 61 Evanston IL 2009-01-14 34 2 0 Syracuse 74 Georgetown 88 Washington DC In the span of four days, Hightower did three ESPN/ESPN2 primetime games. You're going to notice Ed more than other officials simply b/c you see him on your TV more often. Check out his schedule to see just how many important games he's done already that have been on TV: statsheet.com/mcb/referees/ed-hightower/schedule I understand the reasoning behind giving more experienced/highly rated officials the best assignments. But there needs to be more sharing of the wealth--there's no reason, say, Mike Stuart, Wally Rutecki and Paul Faia (to name three lesser known BE officials) can't do Duke-Georgetown or a similar bigger game once in a while. It helps build better experience for officials across the board, and familiarizes teams with different officals during the season. This is actually a relevant point for Georgetown--over the past three seasons, especially 07-08, we saw a big bias towards "big time" BE officials b/c we were scheduled for TV like a Final Four contender. Would've been nice to have additional experience with two lesser-used Big East officials--Doug Sirmons and Paul Jannsen--that we saw in Raleigh. It wouldn't have made it any better if Jeff Clark had called the technical on Monroe. But it would be ideal if we knew going forward that when we play, say, Louisville at home, or a BET Semi/Final, that we couldn't so easily pick the crew from a list of 5-6 officials. So in conclusion--certain officials on the whole aren't as bad as we think, but are more visible than we need and deserve.
|
|
Gold Hoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,578
|
Post by Gold Hoya on Jan 19, 2009 22:04:38 GMT -5
Some officials ARE at fault for being overly dramatic on the court. Ted Valentine is a well-established self-important clown of a man. Curtis Shaw is a jerkwad. Ed Hightower is an interpretive dancer in stripes. Spot on in all of these assessments. Interesting to note that John Cahill wasn't on this list before Saturday (and in fact, it's likely only people like fl, jack, and I who pay way too much attention to officials even knew how to pronounce Cahill's name). In the span of four days, Hightower did three ESPN/ESPN2 primetime games. You're going to notice Ed more than other officials simply b/c you see him on your TV more often. Check out his schedule to see just how many important games he's done already that have been on TV: statsheet.com/mcb/referees/ed-hightower/schedule My favorite thing Hightower does is the November Maui-to-Orlando trip. At least he took a day off in between this year ... I couldn't figure out how it was physically possible last year when he did consecutive days.
|
|
jgalt
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,380
|
Post by jgalt on Jan 19, 2009 22:10:56 GMT -5
(and in fact, it's likely only people like fl, jack, and I who pay way too much attention to officials even knew how to pronounce Cahill's name). which would be? (only so i can know if i am correctly )
|
|
Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,411
|
Post by Jack on Jan 19, 2009 22:41:39 GMT -5
(and in fact, it's likely only people like fl, jack, and I who pay way too much attention to officials even knew how to pronounce Cahill's name). which would be? (only so i can know if i am correctly ) I don't even know if it is correct, but I have always heard it as "Cal" as opposed to "Cay-hill," which is how I pronounce Cahill for other people I know with that appellation. Yep. Two name pronunciation posts in one day. "Working from home" is working out well for no one.
|
|
|
Post by strummer8526 on Jan 19, 2009 23:08:14 GMT -5
Technical foul on jgalt. Someone on this page posted a comment that was too long. I'm not sure who.
|
|
royski
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,293
|
Post by royski on Jan 19, 2009 23:30:11 GMT -5
Technical foul on jgalt. Someone on this page posted a comment that was too long. I'm not sure who. ;D ;D ;D
|
|
FewFAC
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,032
|
Post by FewFAC on Jan 20, 2009 2:04:45 GMT -5
There is, of course, an easy solution to this nonsense. Let's quit scheduling Duke. We don't need Duke on our schedule anymore, and it is really the only control we have over the situation.
If something like this had happened at Cole, do you think we would bother?
I am satisfied in knowing that on a neutral court in March, this Georgetown team can beat Duke by 20. Had this game occurred in the VC, the result would probably have been the same. Right now, the urge for vengeance is probably strong, but for me, the urge to terminate any and all future in-season contract matchups is sufficient.
The time where we needed this game is over, and we can schedule more than a sufficient number of teams not named St. Leo's. Which would leave this matchup where it belongs: on a neutral court in March where it matters, and where play on the court matters.
|
|
hoyaalf
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
I like what your doing very much. Why squirrel hate me?
Posts: 688
|
Post by hoyaalf on Jan 20, 2009 7:31:38 GMT -5
Schedule UCLA instead.
|
|
|
Post by jld54 on Jan 20, 2009 7:49:45 GMT -5
I agree 100% that we do not need to schedule Duke any more and should not, given the hosings with Sweetney and Greg over the past few years. The T definitely affected the outcome -- maybe not cost us the game but certainly turned what looked like a potentially close game into an essentially no win situation for GU.
We are on the map nationally and have a top SOS without Duke. There is no reason why a top program should have to play them in a place where something weird always seems to happen with officiating to help Duke.
I would not object to a neutral site such as the Meadowlands, where we would have good crowd support from NE alums, etc., and a short trip for the students. Otherwise I would look to schedule other national teams such as UCLA, Memphis, Ohio State, Florida, and not bother with this Coach K/national media/refs nonsense at Cameron.
|
|
seaweed
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,664
|
Post by seaweed on Jan 20, 2009 8:22:42 GMT -5
I agree that scheduling Duke gives unnecessary credit to a POS program. Let's not forget that DC is sandwiched between MD and VA. Gary and the UMCPunks won't take us on but I think a home and home series with UVA would be far superior.
As for FLHoya's big ol rant, I agree in theory with much of it but don't really want to hear any complaints about how hard refs work. The big games are certainly way to concentrated on clownact refs, but according to that schedule, Hightower has works 39 games since 11/15. I think a lot of people would be happy to work 90 or 100 hours over a 2+ month period. Travel is a part of it but if you can't take that lifestyle than you picked the wrong profession. Let's not forget the 6-7 months off either. The Cahill-esque clowns who think it is their game get no sympathy from me. Take a look at that thread on officiating.com or at other threads there - half the guys don't know the rules clearly and another good chunk seem to think the players and fans are there to fit into their notions of how a kid should act. That ain't right.
|
|
sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
|
Post by sleepy on Jan 20, 2009 10:13:13 GMT -5
Why are we not directing the rants on Cahills call toward Art Hyland, BE supervisor of officials. He must be in his seventies semi -retired and living on Cape Cod. Former Princeton grad and player if i recall correctly.
|
|
RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
|
Post by RDF on Jan 20, 2009 11:54:45 GMT -5
Adding to this point, Cahill called the next Duke game after the brutal officiating he did to screw Clemson over. Verne Lundquist was calling the game with Billy Packer and called him out--specifically pointing out that Cahill was able to officiate the next Duke game directly after such a brutal hack job he did in Duke/Clemson game. Cahill was making more shady calls and Verne let it be known what Cahill was doing and what happened previous game. Billy Packer tried to cut him off "Verne we're not supposed to say anything about that," but Verne's response was "yes I know, kiss my butt". Cahill called the moving screen call against Duke--but if you remember he also called the phantom 2nd foul against Greg against Uconn--the one where only contact was from Clark below-which there wasn't enough for a foul--but he called it on Greg--who had a CLEAN BLOCK. THESE ARE NOT COINCEDENCES.
|
|
seaweed
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,664
|
Post by seaweed on Jan 20, 2009 12:40:12 GMT -5
Let's not bash Cape Cod. It has done nothing to you...
|
|
sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
|
Post by sleepy on Jan 20, 2009 12:48:17 GMT -5
seaweed I love The Cape. I'm not so sure about the seaweed on the sound side.
|
|
DanMcQ
Moderator
Posts: 30,560
|
Post by DanMcQ on Jan 20, 2009 13:21:44 GMT -5
|
|
hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,212
|
Post by hoyarooter on Jan 20, 2009 13:40:17 GMT -5
YES! Of course, the travel costs would be much higher. How about Michigan State?
|
|