DudeSlade
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I got through the Esherick years. I can get through anything.
Posts: 1,209
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Post by DudeSlade on Apr 13, 2008 19:59:40 GMT -5
I kind of knew I'd get criticized for that post, and kchoya is right on the money that we don't know one way or another, and if there's information I'm missing, it obviously changes the dynamic. Am I really being THAT crazy and elitist for saying that GU might want to stay away from a player with prominent academic difficulties (regardless of the cause)? If you read my post, a lot of it is concern for Chris himself, who might struggle to balance a tough academic load with athletic responsibilities. If he's going to be struggling to pass his classes, we're not proving any elitist point, we're just being Editeds by trying to push him through the system. And to what end? A better basketball team? That's important, but it's not everything. The problem is not that you are being elitist or that you are looking out for Georgetown, the problem is that you don't understand learning disabilities. It's not an issue addressed often or in the scope that it should be for people that have no connection to someone with LD. Personally, I would never have known about LD very well if I wasn't a member of TFA in Hawaii and have studied about LD. So knowing that there's an info gap on this one, I'm gonna try to give some very basic level info, as I don't feel right trying to assert myself as an expert, since I am a regular ed teacher and not a special ed teacher. First off, learning disability is not synonymous with mentally retarded, learning impaired, downs syndrome, autism, or any other of the more serious learning deficiencies. Though I don't know exactly what Chris has and I doubt we'll ever find out, learning disability generally refers to a specific disability in a specific area or to a situation in which the brain doesn't accept information in the way that a normal person's does. For LD students, processes or actions that should be associative are forced to be cognitive, meaning actions that should happen automatically or allow for multi-tasking have to be thought out and focused upon. For example, for most people driving a car and talking are associative processes; therefore, we can do both at once and they don't interfere with each other. For people with LD (again, depending on an individual's LD), talking or driving may be cognitive and therefore, they cannot do both at once without problems. Similarly, for most people can read aloud and comprehend the words, because reading aloud is an associative process, whereas those with LD would need to focus so much on the act of reading aloud that they wouldn't comprehend it and wouldn't be able to answer a question about the reading right afterwards, because deciphering or decoding the words might be a cognitive process for them and they would have to focus on simply reading properly, not comprehending. Additionally, most people can hear a question and instantly respond, because they auditorally comprehend at the same time that they hear. But for someone with LD, the process of decoding the words spoken to them is cognitive and so they must focus on hearing the words, recognize the words spoken, and then gain comprehension, causing their responses to be delayed long enough to comprehend. In a classroom, this can be terribly difficult, as a teacher could ask, "What was one cause of the Civil War?" and while we might respond immediately, an LD student would need to first understand the meaning of each word and then put them together to understand the question, before being able to answer "The split between agrarian and urban societies." In many cases, it is a matter of predictability and time. An LD student can spend a great deal of time worried about whether a question is going to be asked of them and trying to design an answer for that question, because of a fear of looking stupid (a sort of trained behavior after a lifetime of frustration in school), so that they end up missing the answer provided by another student and possibly the question after. For instance, a teacher asks, "How many degrees in a triangle?" To which a student responds. The teacher then asks, "If two angles total 120 degrees, what is the degree measure of the third angle?" calling on the LD student, who excited they know it, says, "180 degrees!" The class laughs, the teacher scolds, and the LD student is red-faced, but still doesn't know why they were wrong because the total degrees in a triangle is 180. They were too hard at work trying to figure out the answer to the first question and never heard the answer or the second question. The problem for an LD student is not that they couldn't do the work, nor that they couldn't listen to the class, comprehend, learn and move on, but that the associative process for most of us of hearing the question and coming up with the answer is a cognitive process for them. Whereas, if they weren't so concerned about knowing the answer so they don't look stupid, they could just listen to the class and totally understand the class. If a teacher could somehow give them a cue before asking them a question (like only asking the student when they stand directly in front of them), the LD student could listen to the whole class, pay attention, understand, comprehend, and learn, and only need to worry about answering when the teacher has cued them that they are going to be asked--all without the rest of the class even knowing what's going on. In this case, the student will learn a great deal more and will even look smart in class. Think of it like filing folders and whereas we retrieve the folders from our brain automatically, an LD student may mis-file some folders and have to search for them, taking slightly longer to find them, especially if under scrutiny of a full class. An LD student can be very successful in school and do quite well, if properly diagnosed and educated. A tutor, smaller classes, avoiding public embarrassment by being able to respond as wanted or only when cued, and having sufficient time to complete work can do wonders. For Chris, I am not surprised at all that he has succeeded in the classroom at Hargrave, because the smaller classes, the one-on-one attention, the lack of distractions, the extended time to work (by being a boarding school and not going home to his buddies as mentioned in the article), and an understanding by teachers of his status are all hugely beneficial to his learning. Because of these reasons, I believe he could be successful at Georgetown, if he receives proper guidance in choosing classes that fit these criteria, in getting tutoring attention, in remaining disciplined about his work, and if his foundation is strong enough so as not to put him too far behind before he even starts at Georgetown. Would Chris have gotten into Georgetown ordinarily or would he necessarily have deserved to get in if not for basketball? Almost certainly not. But many top-flight athletes, especially basketball and football, are not on par with the rest of the student body in terms of academic qualifications coming in. Instead, they offer another qualification that the other students don't possess--athletic prowess. Chris can do just as well as any of these athletes and probably many of our supposedly more academically qualified students, if he receives the right attention. I have a feeling Georgetown knows exactly what's needed to address his academic needs and help him succeed both in the classroom and on the court. I know a number of students at Georgetown that have succeeded considerably with learning disabilities due to the way that they approached their work and the considerable hard work they put in. Did it come easy? Surely not. But they proved their medal and they brought a whole other dynamic to the school, contributing in myriad ways to campus life and the prestige of our university. Should we assume that anyone can succeed at Georgetown and we should just start admitting people with LD and other disabilities into school hapharzadly? Surely not. But when a young man has endured through a lot of difficulties, finally been properly diagnosed, and shown a considerable amount of maturity, fortitude, hard work, and capability to do quite well in the classroom recently, I think it is merited to give the young man a chance considering that he excels on the basketball court and brings a whole other dynamic to campus life that makes us a better university as a whole. With his determination to this point and ability to handle everything so far, I think he will not prove the university wrong. If anyone out there is a special education teacher or has more knowledge of this topic than I do, please correct me or add to my comments. As a regular education teacher, I have studied enough for me to be able to help the few students in my classes, but it is not my field and so I am by no means an expert. Also note that all learning disabilities are unique and that Chris's specific LD may have all or none of the traits I mentioned. I just wanted to try to shed some light on LD as a whole and the ability of someone with LD to succeed at Georgetown. HOYA SAXA Chris!
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idhoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,177
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Post by idhoya on Apr 13, 2008 20:15:35 GMT -5
I know for a fact that he has good people in his corner that really care for him as a person and not just a basketball player.
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MacHoya
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 149
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Post by MacHoya on Apr 13, 2008 20:45:20 GMT -5
After the Egerson fiasco, I thought Georgetown would be a little more careful in choosing their 'student-athletes'. Despite the vagaries of his learning disorder, he sounds a lot like a good kid but one that would struggle pretty mightily at Georgetown level courses. I mean, I haven't opted for the easiest classes possible like some of the basketball players, but I think my own experience (and presumably most other hoyas here) are that GU level courses are FAR beyond the type of crap they make you do in high school... and if Chris is struggling this mightily already to even graduate on time, I'm not sure we should be so willing to use up a scholarship and commit to this kid. There are plenty of special-needs kids that could do a lot for the Georgetown community if admitted, so I don't want to imply anything obnoxious about the whole situation. Players are going to struggle on the court if they're struggling that hard in the classroom -- it might be better to pull a Joakim Noah and major in something like "Recreation Programming" at a state school to relieve some of the pressure. Ladies and Gentlemen, we need to be more careful about making comments like this one, especially when we don't have all the facts and the people they are referring to are likely readers of the board. Learning disabilities are many and varied.They have very little to do with a person's inherent IQ and when properly diagnosed and treated, have very little bearing on one's future success. I have personally witnesses the drastic and near immediate improvement that comes from proper diagnosis and treatment. Personally, I admire Chris' courage and work ethic. It says a lot about him that he is fighting through this tough situation. Georgetown will be proud to count him as a member of our community.
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CWS
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 272
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Post by CWS on Apr 13, 2008 20:45:23 GMT -5
We all know there are too colleges and coaches who don't care a whole lot about whether their student-athletes get an education or not, so it's good to keep raising that concern. Still, I don't think we have too many worries with JT3 in that regard. I still remember that SI article on him last month. In it, JT3 cited Marvin Bressler (professor at Princeton) as a major influence on him. Prof. Bressler was a sociologist of education and did a lot of work related to the education of African-Americans.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
Posts: 9,427
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 13, 2008 20:57:19 GMT -5
I kind of knew I'd get criticized for that post, and kchoya is right on the money that we don't know one way or another, and if there's information I'm missing, it obviously changes the dynamic. Am I really being THAT crazy and elitist for saying that GU might want to stay away from a player with prominent academic difficulties (regardless of the cause)? If you read my post, a lot of it is concern for Chris himself, who might struggle to balance a tough academic load with athletic responsibilities. If he's going to be struggling to pass his classes, we're not proving any elitist point, we're just being Editeds by trying to push him through the system. And to what end? A better basketball team? That's important, but it's not everything. The problem is not that you are being elitist or that you are looking out for Georgetown, the problem is that you don't understand learning disabilities. It's not an issue addressed often or in the scope that it should be for people that have no connection to someone with LD. Personally, I would never have known about LD very well if I wasn't a member of TFA in Hawaii and have studied about LD. So knowing that there's an info gap on this one, I'm gonna try to give some very basic level info, as I don't feel right trying to assert myself as an expert, since I am a regular ed teacher and not a special ed teacher. First off, learning disability is not synonymous with mentally retarded, learning impaired, downs syndrome, autism, or any other of the more serious learning deficiencies. Though I don't know exactly what Chris has and I doubt we'll ever find out, learning disability generally refers to a specific disability in a specific area or to a situation in which the brain doesn't accept information in the way that a normal person's does. For LD students, processes or actions that should be associative are forced to be cognitive, meaning actions that should happen automatically or allow for multi-tasking have to be thought out and focused upon. For example, for most people driving a car and talking are associative processes; therefore, we can do both at once and they don't interfere with each other. For people with LD (again, depending on an individual's LD), talking or driving may be cognitive and therefore, they cannot do both at once without problems. Similarly, for most people can read aloud and comprehend the words, because reading aloud is an associative process, whereas those with LD would need to focus so much on the act of reading aloud that they wouldn't comprehend it and wouldn't be able to answer a question about the reading right afterwards, because deciphering or decoding the words might be a cognitive process for them and they would have to focus on simply reading properly, not comprehending. Additionally, most people can hear a question and instantly respond, because they auditorally comprehend at the same time that they hear. But for someone with LD, the process of decoding the words spoken to them is cognitive and so they must focus on hearing the words, recognize the words spoken, and then gain comprehension, causing their responses to be delayed long enough to comprehend. In a classroom, this can be terribly difficult, as a teacher could ask, "What was one cause of the Civil War?" and while we might respond immediately, an LD student would need to first understand the meaning of each word and then put them together to understand the question, before being able to answer "The split between agrarian and urban societies." In many cases, it is a matter of predictability and time. An LD student can spend a great deal of time worried about whether a question is going to be asked of them and trying to design an answer for that question, because of a fear of looking stupid (a sort of trained behavior after a lifetime of frustration in school), so that they end up missing the answer provided by another student and possibly the question after. For instance, a teacher asks, "How many degrees in a triangle?" To which a student responds. The teacher then asks, "If two angles total 120 degrees, what is the degree measure of the third angle?" calling on the LD student, who excited they know it, says, "180 degrees!" The class laughs, the teacher scolds, and the LD student is red-faced, but still doesn't know why they were wrong because the total degrees in a triangle is 180. They were too hard at work trying to figure out the answer to the first question and never heard the answer or the second question. The problem for an LD student is not that they couldn't do the work, nor that they couldn't listen to the class, comprehend, learn and move on, but that the associative process for most of us of hearing the question and coming up with the answer is a cognitive process for them. Whereas, if they weren't so concerned about knowing the answer so they don't look stupid, they could just listen to the class and totally understand the class. If a teacher could somehow give them a cue before asking them a question (like only asking the student when they stand directly in front of them), the LD student could listen to the whole class, pay attention, understand, comprehend, and learn, and only need to worry about answering when the teacher has cued them that they are going to be asked--all without the rest of the class even knowing what's going on. In this case, the student will learn a great deal more and will even look smart in class. Think of it like filing folders and whereas we retrieve the folders from our brain automatically, an LD student may mis-file some folders and have to search for them, taking slightly longer to find them, especially if under scrutiny of a full class. An LD student can be very successful in school and do quite well, if properly diagnosed and educated. A tutor, smaller classes, avoiding public embarrassment by being able to respond as wanted or only when cued, and having sufficient time to complete work can do wonders. For Chris, I am not surprised at all that he has succeeded in the classroom at Hargrave, because the smaller classes, the one-on-one attention, the lack of distractions, the extended time to work (by being a boarding school and not going home to his buddies as mentioned in the article), and an understanding by teachers of his status are all hugely beneficial to his learning. Because of these reasons, I believe he could be successful at Georgetown, if he receives proper guidance in choosing classes that fit these criteria, in getting tutoring attention, in remaining disciplined about his work, and if his foundation is strong enough so as not to put him too far behind before he even starts at Georgetown. Would Chris have gotten into Georgetown ordinarily or would he necessarily have deserved to get in if not for basketball? Almost certainly not. But many top-flight athletes, especially basketball and football, are not on par with the rest of the student body in terms of academic qualifications coming in. Instead, they offer another qualification that the other students don't possess--athletic prowess. Chris can do just as well as any of these athletes and probably many of our supposedly more academically qualified students, if he receives the right attention. I have a feeling Georgetown knows exactly what's needed to address his academic needs and help him succeed both in the classroom and on the court. I know a number of students at Georgetown that have succeeded considerably with learning disabilities due to the way that they approached their work and the considerable hard work they put in. Did it come easy? Surely not. But they proved their medal and they brought a whole other dynamic to the school, contributing in myriad ways to campus life and the prestige of our university. Should we assume that anyone can succeed at Georgetown and we should just start admitting people with LD and other disabilities into school hapharzadly? Surely not. But when a young man has endured through a lot of difficulties, finally been properly diagnosed, and shown a considerable amount of maturity, fortitude, hard work, and capability to do quite well in the classroom recently, I think it is merited to give the young man a chance considering that he excels on the basketball court and brings a whole other dynamic to campus life that makes us a better university as a whole. With his determination to this point and ability to handle everything so far, I think he will not prove the university wrong. If anyone out there is a special education teacher or has more knowledge of this topic than I do, please correct me or add to my comments. As a regular education teacher, I have studied enough for me to be able to help the few students in my classes, but it is not my field and so I am by no means an expert. Also note that all learning disabilities are unique and that Chris's specific LD may have all or none of the traits I mentioned. I just wanted to try to shed some light on LD as a whole and the ability of someone with LD to succeed at Georgetown. HOYA SAXA Chris! dudeslade, I'm a smarter man for just having read this post. Wow. Great job.
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MacHoya
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 149
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Post by MacHoya on Apr 13, 2008 21:00:28 GMT -5
Dudeslade - you seem to know a lot about LD's. I know that medication is often a part of the process, with amazing results in terms of helping the brain respond to information / thought in a more productive / efficeint manner. Without speculating in any way on any indivual's personal situation, I am curious to know if any of the common medications are on the NCAA banned substance list.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Apr 13, 2008 21:15:44 GMT -5
but I think my own experience (and presumably most other hoyas here) are that GU level courses are FAR beyond the type of crap they make you do in high school... A couple of points: I can't speak for everyone, but many of my junior and senior year high school courses were more demanding than my freshman year courses at GU. And when you take Georgetown's grade inflation into account, it's very difficult for anyone to receive a grade lower than a C. Chris is at a boarding school -- I don't know much about Hargrave, but I assume his current workload isn't light. If he can graduate from Hargrave, I doubt the transition to Georgetown would be ultra-difficult. I'd rather have an LD student who works hard than a guy like Lee Scruggs, who doesn't take his classes seriously and ends up being academically ineligible after one semester.
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The Stig
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,844
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Post by The Stig on Apr 13, 2008 22:37:52 GMT -5
We have to remember that there's an extremely wide variety of learning disabilities. Some of them can be overcome relatively easily if they're properly diagnosed and treated. Others can cause a lot of headaches for all involved even in the proper environment. Unless we know what specific learning disability Chris has (and there's no reason we should know - that's his personal information) there's no way we can predict how he will cope with the academic environment here at Georgetown.
One thing that is true about LD people is that sports are often very attractive to them. In the classroom they have the stigma of being stupid, and no matter how hard they work they can't overcome that inferiority. However, in sports their hard work actually pays off with improved performance and respect from their peers.
I recently finished reading the story of Jackie Stewart, a legendary Scottish race car driver. Stewart is dyslexic, a learning disability that can be overcome relatively easily if it's diagnosed. But Stewart was never diagnosed as a child (he was only diagnosed after he found out his son was dyslexic), and since he had so much difficulty reading everybody assumed he was just a stupid kid, and he believed it. He eventually took up car racing because he thought it was one area where his "stupidity" wouldn't hold him back.
The ironic thing is that Stewart was actually brilliantly smart, and his superior intelligence gave him an advantage over his competitors and was a major factor in his subsequent success. He also turned out to be an incredibly savvy businessman, and he was the first racer to parlay his on-track success into major success in the automotive business field, and was knighted a few years ago. He's still a prominent figure in the racing world, and widely regarded as one of the smartest people to ever participate in auto racing. All from a guy who couldn't sing along with his national anthem on the podium after he won because he couldn't memorize the words to God Save the Queen.
In short, it's important to never equate learning disabilities with stupidity. It's simply a matter of proper diagnosis and treatment. The sad thing is that many learning disabilities go undiagnosed, and the person with the disability believes it when everybody calls them stupid.
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DudeSlade
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I got through the Esherick years. I can get through anything.
Posts: 1,209
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Post by DudeSlade on Apr 13, 2008 23:07:20 GMT -5
We have to remember that there's an extremely wide variety of learning disabilities. Some of them can be overcome relatively easily if they're properly diagnosed and treated. Others can cause a lot of headaches for all involved even in the proper environment. Unless we know what specific learning disability Chris has (and there's no reason we should know - that's his personal information) there's no way we can predict how he will cope with the academic environment here at Georgetown. One thing that is true about LD people is that sports are often very attractive to them. In the classroom they have the stigma of being stupid, and no matter how hard they work they can't overcome that inferiority. However, in sports their hard work actually pays off with improved performance and respect from their peers. I recently finished reading the story of Jackie Stewart, a legendary Scottish race car driver. Stewart is dyslexic, a learning disability that can be overcome relatively easily if it's diagnosed. But Stewart was never diagnosed as a child (he was only diagnosed after he found out his son was dyslexic), and since he had so much difficulty reading everybody assumed he was just a stupid kid, and he believed it. He eventually took up car racing because he thought it was one area where his "stupidity" wouldn't hold him back. The ironic thing is that Stewart was actually brilliantly smart, and his superior intelligence gave him an advantage over his competitors and was a major factor in his subsequent success. He also turned out to be an incredibly savvy businessman, and he was the first racer to parlay his on-track success into major success in the automotive business field, and was knighted a few years ago. He's still a prominent figure in the racing world, and widely regarded as one of the smartest people to ever participate in auto racing. All from a guy who couldn't sing along with his national anthem on the podium after he won because he couldn't memorize the words to God Save the Queen. In short, it's important to never equate learning disabilities with stupidity. It's simply a matter of proper diagnosis and treatment. The sad thing is that many learning disabilities go undiagnosed, and the person with the disability believes it when everybody calls them stupid. Great post Stig. I just want to reiterate your point that LD is very diverse in what it looks like and I would never speculate on Chris's exact disability. My previous post was, as I said, just to shed some light on the issue of LD as a whole and give some examples of ways that LD can manifest itself. Dyslexia, as you mentioned, is one of the best known ones and, as you say, can be treated fairly easily if diagnosed. A family friend is one of the leading doctors in the country in his field (I won't say which for his privacy) and has dyslexia, which, in his case, was not diagnosed until adulthood, but his general intelligence helped him to overcome it on his own. There is a wide, wide range of LD and how it affects people from simple and easily treated to quiet complicated and difficult to treat. In general, it is a blip in the normal processing of information, not in the ability to comprehend or understand. Thanks, MCI. I was procrastinating on my Masters of Ed. thesis by writing that post, so I'm glad to know someone read it. Haha! machoya, I must admit that as a regular ed teacher with TFA and not a special ed teacher, I am not familiar with the medications used or what ones might be banned by the NCAA. As I said, I learned enough about LD and special ed to teach my students and meet their needs in the classroom. So I know more about basic signs of LD, basic underlying causes, and teaching tactics to work with them. 25% of the student population in Hawaii is classified as Special Ed., so we must all have a working knowledge of how to teach these students, but I don't know much beyond that. Now, if you want to know about teaching intermediate math, I've got you covered. As I tell my students: Math Rocks! Didn't bother telling them that I wanted to teach History or English when i joined TFA. haha!
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tjm62
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 855
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Post by tjm62 on Apr 14, 2008 5:27:37 GMT -5
Excellent posts, dudeslade, I appreciate them.
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moe09
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,101
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Post by moe09 on Apr 14, 2008 7:08:15 GMT -5
After the Egerson fiasco, I thought Georgetown would be a little more careful in choosing their 'student-athletes'. Despite the vagaries of his learning disorder, he sounds a lot like a good kid but one that would struggle pretty mightily at Georgetown level courses. I mean, I haven't opted for the easiest classes possible like some of the basketball players, but I think my own experience (and presumably most other hoyas here) are that GU level courses are FAR beyond the type of crap they make you do in high school... and if Chris is struggling this mightily already to even graduate on time, I'm not sure we should be so willing to use up a scholarship and commit to this kid. There are plenty of special-needs kids that could do a lot for the Georgetown community if admitted, so I don't want to imply anything obnoxious about the whole situation. Players are going to struggle on the court if they're struggling that hard in the classroom -- it might be better to pull a Joakim Noah and major in something like "Recreation Programming" at a state school to relieve some of the pressure. The problem with your post, tjm, is that you make a lot of assumptions that are unprovable, and also offensive (I assume) to many on this board. For example: "Despite the vagaries of his learning disorder, he sounds a lot like a good kid but one that would struggle pretty mightily at Georgetown level courses." "Despite the vagaries" you go on to say that he "would struggle pretty mightily at Georgetown." How do you know? Didn't you just say that there were vagaries? Why make this assumption if there are vagaries? Why say something about a kid that you don't even know, nor have any information about? "I mean, I haven't opted for the easiest classes possible like some of the basketball players" How do you know what classes all of the basketball players take? Do you work at the registrar's office? This is obviously another terrible assumption that you can't prove to be true or false, but again, continues to perpetuate stereotypes that can't be defended. It's character assassination, and it's unfair to the players. "if Chris is struggling this mightily already to even graduate on time, I'm not sure we should be so willing to use up a scholarship and commit to this kid." Did you read the article? The kid had an undiagnosed learning disability for much of his high school career. I doubt after school basketball was going to make it any easier for him to perform academically (I know it didn't for me). The point is that I just hope people on this board think about what they say before they go around making assumptions about players, recruits, and coaches without knowing the truth. Stereotypes like the ones jtm put forth do nothing but harm.
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tjm62
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 855
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Post by tjm62 on Apr 14, 2008 7:29:57 GMT -5
Yes, I did draw a lot of assumptions.
The first thing I would say is that all of you are also drawing a lot of assumptions that he could indeed shoulder the load, which I don't really see as more or less probable than my own -- if vagaries are not enough to assume one way or another, why ASSUME he would be successful? I guess I'm inherently more pessimistic. I do completely agree that that is up for the coaches and administration --with more information-- to make that decision, and I guess they have.
Is it so absurd to be concerned about a given student handling the workload? There are a ton of people who struggle WITHOUT the added pressures of a full-time national-level basketball program. I'm not dismissing anyone or trying to be offensive (though I realize now that I worded that first post extremely poorly)... they were just some thoughts.
And I have taken courses with basketball players, and have plenty of friends who have done the same... some were easy, and some were undoubtedly difficult, particularly in the Spring when they have to miss so many of the classes (Tyler Crawford must have missed at least half of the philosophy classes I had with him a couple years back). Sure, they're assumptions, but I can't help but feel that I'm not way out of line here, which is why I'm defending myself.
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,506
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Post by theexorcist on Apr 14, 2008 7:39:29 GMT -5
My points: 1. Hargrave is a military-style boarding school. It's not Choate. It has advertised in places like the Post magazine as a place to give your son discipline. I have no reason to believe that their classes are any harder or easier than any other school. 2. cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/10263119 has sort of what I feel on the LD issue - basically, that some people who are interested in helping prospective NCAA competitors get eligible have no qualms about using whatever means necessary (note that the good quotes aren't sourced, however). Does that mean GU should not take LD students? Of course not. Does it mean that GU should perhaps do a little more due diligence on LD students, to make sure that all is above board? Yes.
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Post by strummer8526 on Apr 14, 2008 7:59:11 GMT -5
My points: 1. Hargrave is a military-style boarding school. It's not Choate. It has advertised in places like the Post magazine as a place to give your son discipline. I have no reason to believe that their classes are any harder or easier than any other school. 2. cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/10263119 has sort of what I feel on the LD issue - basically, that some people who are interested in helping prospective NCAA competitors get eligible have no qualms about using whatever means necessary (note that the good quotes aren't sourced, however). Does that mean GU should not take LD students? Of course not. Does it mean that GU should perhaps do a little more due diligence on LD students, to make sure that all is above board? Yes. Totally agree. When learning disabilities become the loophole, it is absolutely something GU should be wary about and be sure to be on top of w/ all of our recruits. As far as Chris's potentially "struggling mightily" at GU, it sounds from this article like he would ADMIT that he might struggle, but he would do all he could to work through it. Nothing offensive in that statement.
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moe09
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,101
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Post by moe09 on Apr 14, 2008 8:30:07 GMT -5
Yes, I did draw a lot of assumptions. The first thing I would say is that all of you are also drawing a lot of assumptions that he could indeed shoulder the load, which I don't really see as more or less probable than my own -- if vagaries are not enough to assume one way or another, why ASSUME he would be successful? I guess I'm inherently more pessimistic. I do completely agree that that is up for the coaches and administration --with more information-- to make that decision, and I guess they have. Is it so absurd to be concerned about a given student handling the workload? There are a ton of people who struggle WITHOUT the added pressures of a full-time national-level basketball program. I'm not dismissing anyone or trying to be offensive (though I realize now that I worded that first post extremely poorly)... they were just some thoughts. And I have taken courses with basketball players, and have plenty of friends who have done the same... some were easy, and some were undoubtedly difficult, particularly in the Spring when they have to miss so many of the classes (Tyler Crawford must have missed at least half of the philosophy classes I had with him a couple years back). Sure, they're assumptions, but I can't help but feel that I'm not way out of line here, which is why I'm defending myself. I don't think anyone assumed Chris could shoulder the load. I just went back to read the previous posts, and if anything, they're mostly "I really hope Chris makes it," or "Chris keep working hard and we'll be waiting for you at the Hilltop." There was no one who said "I know Chris is going to make it, he'll have absolutely no problems when he starts taking Georgetown University classes. No one. Instead, you said that from what you know, he wouldn't be able to make it. No one is saying that you can't be concerned with someone handling the workload, it's just making conclusions about it, especially in a negative manner, that is unfair to him. Next time, I just recommend you make sure you use the right wording because it did indeed seem to come across as you dismissing the kid had a chance, which would be an assumption, instead of you simply discussing the issue. As for the basketball players classes. You now write... "And I have taken courses with basketball players, and have plenty of friends who have done the same... some were easy, and some were undoubtedly difficult." So.. basically... just like any other Georgetown student then? Some easy and some difficult? Then why in your first post did you say, "I mean, I haven't opted for the easiest classes possible like some of the basketball players." This makes it seem like you have assumed some basketball players opt for all easy classes, which is not fair. I just think you need to be careful on how you word your posts if you didn't mean to be offensive...
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Apr 14, 2008 8:49:17 GMT -5
Two comments on your post(s) tjm.
1. I don't assume Braswell can or can't handle the load. What I do assume is that the school and the staff is in a much better position than you or I to assess that and it is rightfully their decision, along with Chris'. All of them have a much larger stake than you or I, and it seems only right that it is their decision. Since this is a public forum, I don't see why you are posting this -- you know from the article that a 17 year old kid and his family read this and can find it hurtful. What were you trying to accomplish? I know it probably wasn't your intent to be mean, but sometimes it is important to remember how many people read this very public board.
2. The Egerson "debacle" was only a "debacle" from a PR standpoint. From all accounts I've seen, he left GU in full academic standing and left for non-academic reasons. So how was this a debacle? Were people hurt?
You question the motives of those who are defending Chris as only wanting a better basketball team. There are tons of great players who are lining up to play for GU. Chris wil contribute, no doubt, but so would other people. At the end of the day, for me, it's about someone to who GU made a commitment, and who made a commitment to GU right back. Then he followed up by transferring to get his grades up and committed to working on the things we asked him. Publicly calling him out on a message board, especially based on imperfect information seems rash.
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tjm62
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Post by tjm62 on Apr 14, 2008 9:02:47 GMT -5
Fair points, I apologize for the rashness. And the supportiveness is important, I agree.
As for the Egerson thing... I guess you all can disagree, but I thought it was pretty embarrassing.
Per the NY Times:
"What Binghamton officials did not know, and what few have talked about amid this feel-good week here, is that Thompson and Broadus recruited a player to Georgetown who in four years of public high school in Delaware compiled final grades of F in 12 courses.
That player was Marc Egerson, who had a grade-point average of 1.33 in core courses like math, science and English. He passed nine such courses without receiving a grade higher than a C. As a freshman, he even failed physical education."
For a very respectable institute of higher learning, one that prides itself on top-notch students and faculty, the whole thing certainly seemed to me like a case of a university basing its choice purely on basketball rather than even a semblance of being a student athlete.
Of course, it's a very different situation from Braswell. And if we're splitting hairs, I suppose it was just a "PR" debacle, but still.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 14, 2008 9:43:40 GMT -5
Back to the original topic. Watched the first half last night after getting home from the office. I liked what I saw. Clark has excellent size and great athleticism. Seems to be all over the place - that's good and bad. As big as Rivers, but a little more wiry and spry (and athletic?).
Sims seems fluid and seems to have good feet/mobility for a 6'11" guy. Looked good hitting an 18-footer from the wing. Looks like he'll try and dunk it when he's close to the goal. Not sure what types of offensive moves he has, but I think he'll develop those.
Braswell seems like the guy we've been missing for a while - a rugged 6'8" guy who wants to crash the boards. If that's "all" he contributes, I'd be thrilled. He also seems to have decent ball handling and touch for a big guy, but I don't think that's a big part of his game.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Apr 14, 2008 9:52:37 GMT -5
Thread from the UMCB board about the game, including some impressions of the players: mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=174#s=174&f=2580&t=2351298Jason Clark - More sizzle than steak tonight. Very skinny, mean crossover. Though, he really wants to go left every time. Had trouble when guys started sitting on the x-crossover. Shot wasn't impressive, airballed a foul shot. A slasher, with great quickness and solid handle. Should get to the line. Didn't have a great game, but has some nice attributes. Henry Sims - Can really run and jump. Seemed a better rebounder than advertised. Shot has a little hitch, awkwardness to it. Still, a nice long athlete that will get minutes as a frosh. Terps could have used him. Chris Braswell - A real banger. Plays with some 'tude down low. Not all that skilled, but I like his toughness. Doesn't have good form on his shot. Kind of a push shot. Not Ibekwe awkward, but almost that bad.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Apr 14, 2008 10:01:51 GMT -5
Braswell seems like the guy we've been missing for a while - a rugged 6'8" guy who wants to crash the boards. If that's "all" he contributes, I'd be thrilled. He also seems to have decent ball handling and touch for a big guy, but I don't think that's a big part of his game. Actually it is part of his game. He has a very good handle for a big guy and according to info provided during the game he averaged 4 assists per contest at Hargrave. That's a very impressive number for a big man. He's a legit option to help break the press off the dribble.
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