hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Oct 9, 2006 16:39:54 GMT -5
Yeah, RDF, I disagree with you here. George Steinbrenner reports operating losses because those numbers don't include any of the revenue he gets from the YES! network (which the yankees own 38% of) and other outlets, which ends up being hundreds of millions of dollars. The YES! network generates $200 million dollars of revenue every year and is actually, according to some estimates, worth more than the New York Yankees franchise is worth (they're both valued at over $1 billion). So while Steinbrenner is reporting losses with the Yankees, he's making money hand-over-fist with YES! because the Yankees are doing well. It's in his interest to field a team that people want to watch. Before the NHL added it's hard cap, the team with the biggest payroll was the New York Rangers. Even with absurd luxury taxes in the NBA today, the Knicks still have the highest payroll in the league. Does that mean that New York owners just want to win more than everybody else? No, of course not, they just have the benefit of massive revenue-generating fanbases in New York. To a person of intellect, I wonder if it really matters to them if they put theri money in their right pocket or the left. Even in "losing" money the Yankees "value" as a franchise goes up oftentimes. And as you point out, whatever losses Steinbrenner has personally from his right pocket (Yankees) is offset and sometimes "then some" by revenues which go in his left pocket (YES). In a sense it is nothing but a shell game but with massive stakes and a predertemined outcome. But then when he does end up with a title ... lo' and behold ... he puts money in BOTH pockets!
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 9, 2006 17:18:52 GMT -5
I know you ceded this, but comparing the NBA, a sport in which the team with the best player or two players usually win a given series due to the fact that one or two players can dominate a game, with baseball, a sport in which the best player on either team only bats four times a game, is apples and oranges.
Assuming it was a good example, the feud between Shaq and Kobe's escalation coincided with the Lakers being ousted in the playoffs by the Spurs one year, and then the Pistons the next. [shaq coming to camp out of shape, getting called out by Kobe, kobe's legal trouble and shaq not showing any vote of support for his teammate publicly]. after that, Kobe drove Phil out of town, and Shaq demanded a trade. Their feud broke up a dynasty. Had they not had a falling out, the Lakers would probably have raised a couple more banners.
I'm not saying Jeter is responsible for A-Rod's postseason struggles. I am saying, however, that his failure to extend him any kind of olive branch in the face of absurd levels of media and fan scrutiny due to a bruised ego was not becoming of a team leader. It could not have helped an already fragile psyche.
I'll be looking for a future HoF with a 4 for 40 October stretch in the meantime - though I do find it odd that you are throwing away some pretty awesome numbers in Seattle where his teams went up against the Yankees with staffs anchored by Aaron Sele and John Halama. I'm sure Barry Bonds had similar numbers at some point. And, despite being a dirty, dirty cheater, Barry Bonds will probably be remembered as the 2nd best player of all time after Babe Ruth.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 10, 2006 0:18:45 GMT -5
Not one to back down from a challenge, I have compiled the following list of primetime players who have struggled for a 9 or more game stretch in the postseason. It was actually pretty surprising. I realize that none of them match up identically with those of Alex, but let's not split hairs.
As a template, here are A-Rod's numbers from the past 2 postseasons + Games 3 through 5 vs Sox in 2004 ALCS:
41 at bats, 4 hits, a BA of 0.098. With 9 walks and a HBP, his OBP is boosted to a 342. Not sure how important you consider OBP, but considering it does measure the frequency with which one does not make an out, I think it important. RBIs are more a function of players that got on base in front of you and where you bat in the order - A-Rod having no RBIs in games 3 and 4 this series would be a bit misleading if no one was ever on base for him, but i digress. i don't pay all too much attention to them, but if you'd like to go back and fill in the blanks, have at it.
To recap for the Rod: 4/41, .098 BA, 342 OBP On with the show
Future Hall of Famers with bad postseason stretches:
Vladimir Guerrero The Impaler went 1 for 20 in the 2005 ALCS lost to the ChiSox, batting a robust .050. in 13 games and 50 at bats, he is a career 180 batter in the postseason with a 240 OBP. No word on whether or not Angels fans want him out of town. Perhaps we can land him for A-Rod, run ourselves a social experiment.
Barry Bonds Bonds' had a rough two series in his early forays in October baseball. in the 1990 and 91 NLCS's, Barry, 26 at the time of the 90 NLCS, went like this:
45 at bats. 7 hits. a 156 BA, a 333 OBP with 1 RBI. the Pirates lost in 6 to the Reds, 7 to the Braves. He went on to almost singlehandedly [which is very hard in baseball] deliver a title to the Giants in 2004 by batting 471 with a 700 OBP and 1294 SLG before his bullpen let him down as they fell to the Angels in 7. Inarguably the greatest postseason series of the modern era, steroid incuded or not. it'd be a shame if A-rod put it together for another team, that is all i am saying.
Bernie Williams [borderline HOF in my opinion] 1996 WS, 1997 ALDS, 1998 ALDS
52 at bats over 14 games. 6 hits = 115 BA, though he did get on base at a 268 clip. Steinbrenner took a few jabs at Bernie after the 97 ALDS loss vs Cleveland. The Yankees won the other 2 series without much help from Bernie.
Mike Piazza New York Mets, 1999 ALDS, 1999 NLCS, and 2000 NLDS 47 at bats. 8 hits. 191 batting average, 276 OBP.
After his teammates led the Mets to the 2000 NLCS, Piazza batted 412 with 2 HRs in 5 games to set up the Subway Series.
Derek Jeter 1998, ALDS and ALCS 34 at bats. 6 hits for a 176 average, though he walked 4 times in 9 games to have an OBP of 294 heading into the WS with the Pads.
2001, ALCS and WS 44 at bats. 6 hits. a 136 average. he walked 2x in the ALCS, giving him an OBP of 182 in the two series. His walkoff HR on Halloween night vs the D-Backs was something else, given the post 9/11 feelings I had, i'll never forget where i was for games 4 and 5 [the answer, Champions]. However, this dramatic hit obfuscated a poor series otherwise. Unbelievably, the Yankees scored 14 runs in 7 games this series, and almost won the damn thing. Speaks volumes about their pitching.
Miguel Tejada [borderline] 2002 and 2003 ALDS - both oakland losses 10 games. 46 at bats. 5 hits. 1 walk. a HR in a game the A's lost 11-2.
line: 109 BA, 130 OBP. After carrying the A's to the playoffs with an endless number of game winning hits in 2002 [leading to MVP honors], Miggy went 3 for 21 in the 2002 ALDS as the A's fell to the Twins in 5. In 2003 he went 2 for 23 vs the BoSox in the ALDS as they fell in 5, again. Now, I can't stress this enough, Tejada put the A's squarely on his back these seasons. Giambi bolted for NY and his protection in the lineup was Scott Hatteberg. He had an endless run of walkoff hits in 2002. And he failed in October. I am friends with quite a few A's fans, all of which shed a tear when he left Oakland for the Orioles, despite his abysmal postseason play.
Hall of Famers with bad postseason stretches:
The Mick in 15 games over the course of the 1961, 1962, and 1963 World Series, Mantle's numbers read like this:
46 at bats. 6 hits. a 130 average with a 231 OBP. He amassed 1 RBI in this span, a solo shot against in the 63 World Series where the Yanks were swept in four games by the Dodgers as Mantled batted 133. The Yanks won the 61 and 62 World Series in spite of Mantle's play, though I believe he sat out a couple of games in 61 due to injury.
Wade Boggs 1996 for the Yankees, Boggsy had a positively brutal ALDs and ALCS, but luckily for him, Jeffrey Maier and the Yankee pitching staff were on his side. the numbers
3 hits in 27 at bats, a 111 BA with a 148 OBP due to one walk. O RBIs. 5 whiffs. Just a complete mess. But most don't remember that, they remember him on a horse. one of the most latently homoerotic moments in recent yankee history. it should be noted that Tino Martinez was benched in favor Cecil Fielder this world series, but did go on to perform in subsequent postseasons. given a large enough sample size, the numbers tend to arrive.
Johnny Bench 1975 NLCS, WS 7 for 42. 168 BA, 238 OBP. batted 077 in the NLCS. Did have a HR in a game the Reds won vs Boston in the classic 1975 series.
Ted Williams Making only one World Series as the loaded Yankees dominated his era, Teddy Ballgame batted 200 in 25 at bats in a 7 game series with the Cards, including an 0 for 4 performance in the deciding game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2006 8:15:54 GMT -5
Buff, Carl Pohlad's nickname is "Mr. Cheap" for a reason and how he made his money is a source of rage/anger up here in Minnesota--he RAPED people to get where he did and let's just say he's been called to carpet on many occasions. I understand the money the Yankees make, but the fact is that they try to win under Steinbrenner and are committed to doing this every year. Whatever it takes and as I said, their decision making can be questioned--the commitment can't be. Steinbrenner buying team from CBS and turning it into what it is now-is great business. CBS had the money and power if they wanted and look what they did to the franchise? Look what Tribune Company does with Cubs? It's about the goal/commitment he sets as a precedent and while I understand your financial comments, he could say he's about winning, spend money, and not hold anyone to a standard--which isn't the case with Yankee Organization. To compare the Rangers/Knicks with Yankees is wrong--and as I said, the other teams who have made commitments to their fans should be commended--the bottom line is that if any owner can't hack it, there will be NUMEROUS people ready to pounce in and take their shot. The problem with Professional Sports in this country is attitude. Everyone wants their "Shot" and feels they are "owed" a shot to win--by weakening others. The true goal is to make others raise their level/game and beat you and I tire of the attitude that we see today--like "Dan Marino is a great player, would like to see him win one"--screw Marino--if he can't win with team he's on, that's life. You don't get anywhere by hoping strong teams get weak--you build and rise up to challenge and take it on. Too many people in today's society want everyone to get their piece--I admire the strong and have no problem seeing inferior/weak get crushed--it's part of life. Change in attitude in sport reflects on the societal change and it's attitudes like Steinbrenner's that should be applauded--not singled out as "Bad for game". The Draft was inserted to weaken the Yankees and other powerful clubs, there are ways to build a winner--as you've seen Detroit, Oakland, Florida do. It's still a game and has to be won on the field and I tire of the weak complaining--either get better or get crushed. That is why I want Torre fired. I appreciate his tenure and to be quite honest, I've never felt that he was a smart manager. But he is a nice guy and did what was asked--to a certain extent. He's been given ample times to correct things and get team to next level--he's failed as leader of team and has to go. Those who say "He's won 4 titles.......9 straight divisions..." are not seeing what is important--the ONLY THING that matters is winning a Championship in that industry. If that isn't your goal, then you are ripping off customers and shouldn't have a team. Pro Sports are BUSINESS and nobody sets out to have a company to not achieve and produce--if they do, they won't be around long and will fail. That is my point in that attitude that Yankee fans can appreciate. Remember Steinbrenner was BLASTED for replacing Showalter with Torre in first place and who was right there? Now it's time to give Torre his walking papers and move onto someone who has the drive/hunger to push this team forward. 2nd Place is for losers and Torre was getting too settled into "we did a good job overcoming..."--no you didn't. You failed and have to go. I appreciate the response, but the fact remains - Polhad's riches have nothing to do with the Twins, just as whatever Steinbrenner is worth has nothing to do with the Yankees. Each team is run on a budget isolated from the respective owner's other holdings. The Yankees make MANY, MANY, MANY times more than the Twins make. Ergo, the Yankees will always be in a position to do "whatever they want" whereas the Twins won't be. I agree - if Polhad or any other owner is pocketing revenue sharing loot, he should be reprimanded in some way or have that money revoked in the future. However, no owner puts their own personal money (or money from other ventures) into their club after the initial purchase, so to say Polhad "doesn't do what it takes to win" because he doesn't put his own cash into the team is a bit disingenuous because neither does Steinbrenner, Daniel Snyder, Cuban, the Toronto Teacher's Pension Plan (which owns the majority stake in the Maple Leafs) or any other owner for that matter. That's all I was saying, I was only responding to your comment that Polhad is a fool because he runs his team on a tight budget... he's a fool for other reasons, but the simple fact is he will never have the economic resources to compete with the Yankees and maintain a going concern in Minnesota. I agree Steinbrenner appears to care more about winning than anyone else, but he also has resources no other owner in his sport could even dream of. More of an argument could be made for John Henry being "cheap" than Carl Polhad... his operating budget is MUCH greater in Boston than Polhad's in Minneapolis.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2006 9:04:49 GMT -5
Bernie Williams [borderline HOF in my opinion] "Bernie Williams, borderline Hall of Famer" - I hear this from a LOT of Yankee fans, and you're all nuts. Seriously. Bernie's been a very good player for a long time, but no way...... .297 career BA .858 career OPS 2336 career hits 287 HR 1257 RBI In NONE of these 5 categories is he among the Top 100 all-time. 5-time All-Star 4 Gold Gloves, just like Cesar Geronomio, Marquis Grissom, Kenny Lofton, Fred Lynn and Mickey Stanley (all of the other OF with 4 GG's) Finished in the Top 10 in MVP voting ONCE (and that was a 7th Place finish in 1998) All-time postseason leader in HR, RBI and R, but I think we can all agree that these numbers would be a lot different without ALCS and ALDS games. One LCS MVP, just like Mike Devereaux and Jeffrey Leonard. baseball-reference.com "Similar Batters" (0 HOFers): Paul O'Neill Bob Johnson (some dude from the 1930s) Luis Gonzalez Bobby Bonilla Will Clark Ellis Burks Reggie Smith Edgar Martinez Del Ennis John Olerud baseball-reference.com "Similar Batters through Age 37" (All of 2 HOFers, and Perez was a VERY borderline case): Dave Parker Luis Gonzalez Dave Winfield (HOF) Dwight Evans Tony Perez (HOF) Bobby Bonilla Reggie Smith Harold Baines Chili Davis Paul O'Neill I'm sure Bernie willl be greeted warmly at Old-Timers Games in the Bronx for years (and with good reason), but if he ever goes to Cooperstown, he should be paying the admission fee...
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Oct 10, 2006 9:49:28 GMT -5
Can we please move any and all Yankee discussion to an "Off Season" rather than Postseason thread.
Last I checked the Yankee Post Season is over and their Off season has begun.
Let's reserve the Post Season thread for those teams still competing for the title that a Quarter Billion couldn't buy.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Oct 10, 2006 10:21:21 GMT -5
Can we please move any and all Yankee discussion to an "Off Season" rather than Postseason thread. Last I checked the Yankee Post Season is over and their Off season has begun. Let's reserve the Post Season thread for those teams still competing for the title that a Quarter Billion couldn't buy. Ouch! That might put a little salt on a wound or two.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Oct 10, 2006 10:26:16 GMT -5
Good job, Borat. It is indeed interesting to see all these big name players struggle in the postseason for more than a few games at a time. Yes, I'd consider the OBP numbers important, but less important for a guy who's considered a slugger than opposed to a guy at either the top or the bottom of the lineup (since their main job as hitters is to get on base before the middle of the lineup comes up). But neverthless, I must say it again, a great job compiling these numbers. A few observations: 1) I would tend to agree that Bernie is a borderline HOF'er , despite Cam's well-thought out counter argument. While his career numbers pale in comparison to that of the average HOF'er, he was one of it not arguably THE offensive centerpiece of 4 World Series teams. I hope he gets in, but if he doesn't, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. 2) Just to point out the men on base point you brought up early in your post: A-Rod left 1 man on in Game 4, and 3 men on in Game 3 (including a crucial K in the 1st inning after Jeter had gotten a 1 out double... we likely all saw the graphic of a team's winning percentage if they score first since division series came into play). But no, it's not like he was leaving a bus load of people on base in Games 3 and 4. Failing to get a run in with the bases loaded in Game 2 hurt immensely, though, and would've killed any momentum the Tigers would have possibly been able to muster had he gotten a big hit there. 3) After sifting through the stats, it still looks like A-Rod has one of the 5 worst extended postseason stretches in the history of baseball (you went as far back as Williams, I'll just assume that no one else fits your list). So while we all can agree his current postseason slump is not unprecedented in terms of length nor is it to solely to blame for the Yankees' early exits the past few years, it is still one of historic magnitude. 4) Just to address your prior post: the reason I discredited Alex's postseason stats from Seattle was because you said to: I thought we had agreed that postseasons in New York were for real and postseasons in Seattle were just 'pretend baseball." 5) I agree with your little tidbit that you inserted under Vlad's stats. In no way am I discrediting A-Rod's ability as a player, and I'm sure he'd still put up big numbers if he goes elsewhere, and probably even in the postseason. The crux of my argument has always been that he will not succeed in the postseason in NY. That's nothing to be ashamed of; some people are able to thrive under intense pressure (and by pressure, I mean NY pressure, not just simply postseason pressure) , some aren't. That's not a knock on him as a baseball player at all.
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Post by RockawayHoya on Oct 10, 2006 10:27:19 GMT -5
Can we please move any and all Yankee discussion to an "Off Season" rather than Postseason thread. Last I checked the Yankee Post Season is over and their Off season has begun. Let's reserve the Post Season thread for those teams still competing for the title that a Quarter Billion couldn't buy. Fair enough. Who wants to discuss Game 1 of the World Series between the Tigers and A's?
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Oct 10, 2006 10:29:43 GMT -5
I vaguely recall describing the '85 semi between GU and the Redmen as the title game. Of course, I was an undergrad at the timne and didn't know any better.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Oct 10, 2006 11:49:56 GMT -5
thanks man. the things i do instead of sleep astound me. i am in florida to promote tonight's UFC bout [please watch] and it was a decent way to kill time in my hotel room.
there was no real method to my madness, i was just plugging in names and seeing what came up. I focused more on current/recent players b/c i recall seeing games they were in. Teddy Ballgame was a stretch, considering it was only 5 games, but given his historical significance, i decided to include him. as such, i don't know where A-Rod's current futility stretch sits all time, but i will say it is very comparable to Mantle's early 60s, Jeter's 98 and 2001 stretches, and Tejada's current one.
i was being sarcastic re: the playoffs in Seattle being "pretend baseball" - and considering he had two monstrous ALCS's against the Yankees in the middle of their dynasty run, the media scrutiny was intense then as well. I in no way discount what A-Rod did in Seattle, just as I don't discount what he did early in his postseason career with the Yankees. I think October pressure is high no matter where you're at, and it would be especially high for A-Rod given the "game's most talented" label he has worn since 19 years of age.
I think what the research I did showed, to me anyway, is that even the greatest of hitters go through slumps in the postseason and sometimes must rely on their teammates to give them a chance at redemption in the next round. That A-Rod did produce at a high level in his first 8 postseaon games as a Yankee encourages me to believe that he is capable of getting it done again, in Pinstripes. I hope he gets the chance.
Also, in regards to moving him - another reason i don't think it's wise: He is 31, young by the current Yankee standards. Posada, Giambi, Damon are three guys a couple of years older than he is whose production we will probably see slip in the next year or two. Jeter had a career year this season which will be tough to replicate. With Robbie Cano's productivity tied strictly to his batting average, and Hideki Matsui's best season equivalent to A-Rod's 2006 [his worst], his production in the regular season could be vital to this team making the postseason in the next couple of years. Of course if the pitching staff doesn't improve, chances are the postseason won't end well for the Yanks anyway, but I'd rather get to the dance and have a shot than sit home.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Oct 10, 2006 13:04:30 GMT -5
Please, in all seriousness, can we rstrict this thread to teams still alive in this post-season. I'm sure a new thread entitled "250 Million doesn't buy what it used to" can be started to talk about the Yankmees.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Oct 10, 2006 13:32:51 GMT -5
I think A-Rod drove in the same number of runs as I did in the playoffs this year. I would have played for a lot less money.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Oct 10, 2006 13:39:44 GMT -5
Murderers' Row and Cano. The sad truth is they put forth as much effort as Murderers' Row, all of whom are long dead.
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Oct 12, 2006 23:57:43 GMT -5
To comply with Elvado's request, let me just say:
A's, Tigers, and Cards are chumps. Let's go Mets. Haters will be proven wrong.
...and Yankees suck.
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miamihoya
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Post by miamihoya on Oct 15, 2006 1:45:59 GMT -5
I find myself rooting for the tigers cuz of their connections with the marlins...Former Manager, Former GM, former catcher, former closer....GO TIGERS!!!! Its just a good story overall...
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Bando
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Post by Bando on Oct 16, 2006 0:23:22 GMT -5
Well that was a good ole fashioned country ass whuppin if I ever saw one. If it rains tomorrow, then the Lord truly is pulling for the Metropolitans this year. Woot!
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Oct 16, 2006 9:59:43 GMT -5
Nice to see the boys pull out the whippin' sticks last night. Also nice to hear over the weekend that the horse's ass Steve lyons got his walking papers. After his and Brennaman's funny little riff on the blind Met fan, it took a comment about hispanics to get him canned. Oh what a wonderful PC world...
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Oct 16, 2006 20:33:47 GMT -5
Moneyball 2 is coming out in stores this offseason. And if you thought all that Bill James crap was SHOCKING, get ready for this! Billy Beane doesn't care about any sort of numbers, whether it be wins, losses, or number of playoff appearances when it comes to hiring/firing managers! Perhaps Ken Macha didn't have "the good face." sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2628358
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Oct 19, 2006 20:38:25 GMT -5
So for as long as I can remember, I have found the Stade Fasciste "Day-o!" call and response to be the single most annoying crowd gimmick in all of sports. Unfortunately, the folks across town might have come up with something worse with "Ev-ry-bo-dy-clap-your-hands!" I keep hearing what great baseball fans they have in NYC, but that crap is bush. Go Cards.
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