2006 MLB Postseason Thread

[DanMcQ]

You can debate about pitching changes as much as you want, but the fact is that lineup and payroll got shut out for 20 consecutive innings. Debating pitching changes is somewhat like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic - the ship was still going down.

If you want to scapegoat anybody, scapegoat Damon. He didn't get on base (2-12 in the last 3 games).

Speaking of Scapegoats

[RDF]

Borat, I agree with most of what you said about changes that need to be made-and as stated above, I don't blame Rodriguez for this debacle alone--and you're right about one thing, as a fan who likes Jeter a lot, he's the leader--although I still think it's BEYOND IGNORANT to have a "Captain" in baseball--why does it have to be acknowledged? It's stupid. Leadership doesn't need a "letter/title" for validation. As for Jeter, well I saw him hit .500 in this postseason and carry the team to their only win so I think you trying to put his play down and make a point in defending A-Rod is beyond silly. I admit to having a bias against Rodriguez, but to this point I've yet to see any performances that make me change my opinion. I don't think he's terrible, but for what he is HYPED to be--he is not worthy of the praise--which has been, is, and will be my argument against his presence on this particular team.

You and other stat driven fans bring good discussion/debate to things, but I'm old school and the only STATS that MATTER are Winning Championships (in Pro Sports that is all that matters) and with this current crop of "Sluggers/All Stars" this extremely flawed team is 9-11 in the Postseason and can't beat any teams with good pitching.

As for A-Rod, his last two postseasons have been against a team he historically lights up (Angels) and he single handedly turned that into a loss with his game 2 error and futile hitting. This postseason--he had a good Game 1--hit ball hard and was aggressive, a tough Game 2 against pitchers that were tough, a miserable Game 3 against a guy he usually destroys--but so did the entire lineup in the past, and a bad Game 4 against another fine young pitcher. I don't blame him for this debacle at all, I just don't think he's needed to help Yankees win and I don't want him around--but I understand your point too/respect it. Just think the team would be better without him. I know you think team chemsitry doesn't matter, but it really does and I can't stress that enough. The reason a guy like Brosius could perform well in World Series and have bad numbers in ALDS and ALCS is because that team was about performing as a team. They advanced runners, played good defense--can't tell you how valuable Brosius' defense was at 3B, and he blended in well with the roster/approach. It's why it's important to have a team and not a bunch of All Stars. "Stars" try to carry the team, TEAMS function as one and aren't afraid to pass the glory. They pick each other up. It's why guys like Abreu flourish in NY--he was a great pick up and fits perfectly into how the Yankees should play/have won in past. Sheffield isn't. He's a clown and brings nothing but selfishness and ego to a team atmosphere--it's why with his great numbers, he's modeled so many uniforms.

I realize you'll scoff at this and go nuts as always, but it's a fact and you've yet to discredit it with any support that validates your argument--that chemistry doesn't matter at all and if you look at the numbers.......the ONLY NUMBERS THAT MATTER ARE WINS and CHAMPIONSHIPS--not personal statistics.

[Hank Scorpio]

What did Jeter do after Game 1? He went 1 for 4 every game and 0 for 12 with runners on base the rest of the series. I am not giving him, or any member of the team, any sort of credit. No one showed up after Game 1, and I thought the Damon/Jeter/Abreu going down on 7 pitches of the first inning set the tone for Game 4.

Glad you recognized that he smoked the ball in game 1 3 times. I didn't want to bring it up, but he hit 2 atom balls that almost took the gloves off the fielders that caught em. He was pretty awful game 2, but Verlander and Zumaya were flat out dealin. Game 3 i am still baffled by...KENNY ROGERS?! Game 4 he crushed a ball that settled into Granderson's glove before the warning track. The numbers in the end are ugly, but that's only if you just read the box score. Glad someone out there besides me didn't just do that.

I think part of the problem is the pitching be so miserable that the guys in the lineup press to get something done. If you don't have any confidence in your starter [Randy and Wright], maybe you go up there grinding the bat into sawdust trying to hit a HR. If that is the case, Torre/Mattingly need to chew people out for diverting from the gameplan.

As for A-Rod, if he is overhyped, and you don't believe the hype, that's fine. But I really don't think this would be better off without his production out of the hot corner. Boston played well below expectations this season, but in 2005 we needed every last bit of his offensive output to win the division. Barring an overhaul of our pitching staff this offseason, that is going to be the case again next year IMO. Playoff failures aside, you need to get there first. In that respect, he's part of the solution, not part of the problem.

rdf said:

Borat, I agree with most of what you said about changes that need to be made-and as stated above, I don't blame Rodriguez for this debacle alone--and you're right about one thing, as a fan who likes Jeter a lot, he's the leader--although I still think it's BEYOND IGNORANT to have a "Captain" in baseball--why does it have to be acknowledged? It' stupid. Leadership doesn't need a "letter/title" for validation. As for Jeter, well I saw him hit .500 in this postseason and carry the team to their only win so I think you trying to put his play down and make a point in defending A-Rod is beyond silly. I admit to having a bias against Rodriguez, but to this point I've yet to see any performances that make me change my opinion. I don't think he's terrible, but for what he is HYPED to be--he is not worthy of the praise--which has been, is, and will be my argument against his presence on this particular team.

You and other stat driven fans bring good discussion/debate to things, but I'm old school and the only STATS that MATTER are Winning Championships (in Pro Sports that is all that matters) and with this current crop of "Sluggers/All Stars" this extremely flawed team is 9-11 in the Postseason and can't beat any teams with good pitching.

As for A-Rod, his last two postseasons have been against a team he historically lights up (Angels) and he single handedly turned that into a loss with his game 2 error and futile hitting. This postseason--he had a good Game 1--hit ball hard and was aggressive, a tough Game 2 against pitchers that were tough, a miserable Game 3 against a guy he usually destroys--but so did the entire lineup in the past, and a bad Game 4 against another fine young pitcher. I don't blame him for this debacle at all, I just don't think he's needed to help Yankees win and I don't want him around--but I understand your point too/respect it. Just think the team would be better without him. I know you think team chemsitry doesn't matter, but it really does and I can't stress that enough. The reason a guy like Brosius could perform well in World Series and have bad numbers in ALDS and ALCS is because that team was about performing as a team. They advanced runners, played good defense--can't tell you how valuable Brosius' defense was at 3B, and he blended in well with the roster/approach. It's why it's important to have a team and not a bunch of All Stars. "Stars" try to carry the team, TEAMS function as one and aren't afraid to pass the glory. They pick each other up. It's why guys like Abreu flourish in NY--he was a great pick up and fits perfectly into how the Yankees should play/have won in past. Sheffield isn't. He's a clown and brings nothing but selfishness and ego to a team atmosphere--it's why with his great numbers, he's modeled so many uniforms.

I realize you'll scoff at this and go nuts as always, but it's a fact and you've yet to discredit it with any support that validates your argument--that chemistry doesn't matter at all and if you look at the numbers.......the ONLY NUMBERS THAT MATTER ARE WINS and CHAMPIONSHIPS--not personal statistics.

[Hank Scorpio]

A little defensive this morning? Let's save the snark for after the Giants game, ok?

I know you say you blame everyone, but that you only want to excise one player who is under contract for next season sure sounds like scapegoating to me.

I would prefer Pinella to Torre. Maybe these guys need a firebrand to get them going. Also, assuming we keep A-Rod, maybe a manager that doesn't throw him under the bus will help him relax. And make no mistake, the SI article and dropping him to 8th in the lineup [if you're not scapegoating, Torre sure is] achieved just that.

As for A-Rod, again, I couldn't be more clear. I defended him last spring when the fans got all over him for a slow start, and I held out hope that he'd redeem himself with a strong postseason showing. But that wasn't just failure we saw the past 4 games, that was just downright embarrassing. Add that to the angst he's created in the clubhouse and his disruption of team chemistry; there's really no place for him to go but elsewhere, IMO.

Like I said, if you're embarrassed by the last 4 games, then everyone has got to go, not just A-Rod. If you think the clubhouse would be a better place with him not around, perhaps you're right. As stated in an earlier post, if clubhouse harmony was ever to be achieved, Derek Jeter would need to come out in defense of his teammate - from the fans, and from the media. The latter two are what drives the angst. Until Captain America steps up, maybe Alex is doomed in NY.

One thing is for certain, he isn't waiving his no trade clause, so talk of trading him is pretty futile anyway.

Off to East Rutherford. The Giants better win today, or else my Hoya hoops habit is going to be downright pathological.

- Borat

PS - Reggie Jackson was the biggest clubhouse distraction ever. More food for thought.

[DanMcQ]

borat2 said:

PS - Reggie Jackson was the biggest clubhouse distraction ever. More food for thought.

So Reggie hasn't lost a bit off his fastball, eh?

[RockawayHoya]

Defensive, yes. I tend to be a little ticked when my team loses in the postseason. I'm pretty sure all of us were in a foul mood after the Florida game last year. So I'm not sure why you're surprised.

I thought typing out "the TEAM is to blame for this loss" would have been sufficient. But, if you want to keep defending a guy who .071 in the series by blaming his manager for failing to boost his confidence, blaming his teammates for not coming to his support after he publicly throws them under the bus to begin with, and ignoring the fact that despite his numbers in the regular season, he continues to come up empty in the postseason (save ONE playoff series which you like to point out about a zillion times), that's fine.

"Maybe a manager that doesn't throw him under the bus will help him relax." Torre batted him 6th in Game 1 to light a fire under him. Truly great players would have taken that as a slight and tried to prove their manager wrong, and the drop in the batting order should have fueled his motivation to show everyone he could be productive. Obviously, that didn't happen. No big deal, though, since we had won. So Torre thought maybe you were right. Put him back in his normal 4th spot, and send him a message that the coaching staff still believes in him to be THE guy in the lineup. After pretty much failing to get the ball out of the infield in two consecutive games (even on foul balls), what do you do if you're Torre? Leave him 4th and watch him go 0-4 again? He obviously wasn't relaxed batting in his normal spot in the lineup. I have no problem with moving him down in the order if he wasn't being the least bit productive.

"Until Captain America steps up, maybe Alex is doomed in NY." I really can't believe you just blamed Jeter for A-Rod's shortcomings. Come on. I know you don't like the guy at all, but that's a little over the top, don't you think? You really think all Jeter had to do was go out to the public and tell everyone to stop booing the guy, and A-Rod would all of a sudden be able to turn a 180 and lead this team to a championship? And I'm sure you know the reason behind their frosty relationship; can you blame Jeter for not coming to his defense?

And just so I'm not further accused of "scapegoating," which I continue to find to be ridiculous, here's a list of who's to blame so that there's no confusion as to "how many" people I feel are responsible for this series loss:

(in no particular order)
1) Torre
2) Sheffield
3) Cano
4) Giambi
5) A-Rod
6) Randy (he's obviously shot... too bad he's still on the books)

Still, I don't take back anything I said earlier about A-Rod. And if he wants to come back, he does so of his own volition. I'm not defending him anymore from the boos he gets from the crowd and the attacks by the media. He doesn't deserve the defense. Some players, no matter how talented they are or how much success they've had elsewhere, just can't cut it in NY. A-Rod isn't the first, and he won't be the last. As RDF said earlier, "I don't blame Rodriguez for this debacle alone... I just don't think he's needed to help Yankees win and I don't want him around." Time for him to go, and I hope he does find his way out of NY sooner than later. Same goes for Sheffield.

One thing we can certainly agree on: the Giants had better come away from the Foreskins game with a win. Otherwise it's going to be a really bad October. I'm already sick of all the Mets fans around here who are whooping and hollering that they just swept a mediocre team and have essentially clinched the AAAA. Big f'in deal.

[Hank Scorpio]

I hardly think shifting a guy in the batting order every game is a vote of confidence, but that's just me. I also thought it odd that he moved A-rod down to 8 and kept other underperformers up top, but again, that's just me. I don't remember A-Rod throwing his team under a bus, unless you're talking about the SI article in which he was thrown under the bus.

Derek Jeter defended Jason Giambi, a dirty, dirty cheater, saying "Booing him is not going to help him succeed, and you want him to succeed if you want the Yankees to win." He did the same thing with Gary Sheffield, who is also a dirty, dirty cheater. He has essentially told the media in regards to A-Rod "everyone gets booed, deal with it." I, personally, see a subtle difference there from Captain America. Derek Jeter is also the guy who told Ken Huckaby to f off when he tried to apologize for dislocating his shoulder, but that is neither here nor there.

A-Rod actually rake for two series with the Yankees, then sucked for two. I'll keep bringing up the first two as long as you keep bringing up the last two - cherry picking isn't only fair game if it supports your argument, chief. You, my good man, are essentially saying "what have you done for me lately?". his postseason numbers, including his Seattle days [which i know don't count b/c seattle plays pretend baseball while ny is the real thing] still eclipse those of mickey mantle, who batted 257 for his career in the postseason, batting over 300 only 3 times in 12 World Series appearances. Was Mickey Mantle a decent ballplayer? He sure as heck was not in the postseason. [amazingly, he batted 333 and 400 in two of his best World Series, and the yanks lost both]. However, he did help get his team to the World Series, which has to count for something. Should the Yankees have traded the Mick for being a boozehound/clubhouse distraction who often failed in the postseason? Seems like if he played today people would be calling for his head.

I'm not going to debate A-Rod with any of you anymore. If you want him gone, maybe you'll get your wish and the Yankees will pay for him to give Vlad Guerrero protection in the Angels lineup or to help another team reach the postseason - could even cost the Yanks a playoff spot if he gets traded within the AL. Should the Yankees continue to fail to win the World Series if he is to leave, I'm curious to see what Yankee fans will blame for the team's struggles then.

My list of outskies:

1) Torre - miserable tactician
2) Sheffield - no place to play him
3) RJ - he isn't going anywhere with that contract, but wishful thinking
4) Bernie - Let Melky be the 4th OF
5) Giambi - throws A-Rod under a bus after doing 'roids and backs it up with a 1 for 8 performance. outstanding, Giambalco. Will make 21 million dollars next season, 23 the year after. He stays, too.
6) Fasano - we need a backup catcher with a decent bat so that Posada can rest some more.

The backloading of contracts has made no one on this squad a tradable commodity aside from A-Rod [16 mill per], Cano, and Wang. You're going to be looking at the same roster next season, aside from the pitching staff, unless the Yanks are willing to eat a lot of salary to move people. I don't see it happening.

- How many weeks til pitchers and catchers?

[miamihoya]

Its awesome to see yankees fans try to figure out where things went wrong...how can u not enjoy their 220 million dollar collapse?

[RockawayHoya]

borat2 said:

I hardly think shifting a guy in the batting order every game is a vote of confidence, but that's just me. I also thought it odd that he moved A-rod down to 8 and kept other underperformers up top, but again, that's just me. I don't remember A-Rod throwing his team under a bus, unless you're talking about the SI article in which he was thrown under the bus.

Derek Jeter defended Jason Giambi, a dirty, dirty cheater, saying "Booing him is not going to help him succeed, and you want him to succeed if you want the Yankees to win." He did the same thing with Gary Sheffield, who is also a dirty, dirty cheater. He has essentially told the media in regards to A-Rod "everyone gets booed, deal with it." I, personally, see a subtle difference there from Captain America. Derek Jeter is also the guy who told Ken Huckaby to f off when he tried to apologize for dislocating his shoulder, but that is neither here nor there.

A-Rod actually rake for two series with the Yankees, then sucked for two. I'll keep bringing up the first two as long as you keep bringing up the last two - cherry picking isn't only fair game if it supports your argument, chief. You, my good man, are essentially saying "what have you done for me lately?". his postseason numbers, including his Seattle days [which i know don't count b/c seattle plays pretend baseball while ny is the real thing] still eclipse those of mickey mantle, who batted 257 for his career in the postseason, batting over 300 only 3 times in 12 World Series appearances. Was Mickey Mantle a decent ballplayer? He sure as heck was not in the postseason. [amazingly, he batted 333 and 400 in two of his best World Series, and the yanks lost both]. However, he did help get his team to the World Series, which has to count for something. Should the Yankees have traded the Mick for being a boozehound/clubhouse distraction who often failed in the postseason? Seems like if he played today people would be calling for his head.

I'm not going to debate A-Rod with any of you anymore. If you want him gone, maybe you'll get your wish and the Yankees will pay for him to give Vlad Guerrero protection in the Angels lineup or to help another team reach the postseason - could even cost the Yanks a playoff spot if he gets traded within the AL. Should the Yankees continue to fail to win the World Series if he is to leave, I'm curious to see what Yankee fans will blame for the team's struggles then.

My list of outskies:

1) Torre - miserable tactician
2) Sheffield - no place to play him
3) RJ - he isn't going anywhere with that contract, but wishful thinking
4) Bernie - Let Melky be the 4th OF
5) Giambi - throws A-Rod under a bus after doing 'roids and backs it up with a 1 for 8 performance. outstanding, Giambalco. Will make 21 million dollars next season, 23 the year after. He stays, too.
6) Fasano - we need a backup catcher with a decent bat so that Posada can rest some more.

The backloading of contracts has made no one on this squad a tradable commodity aside from A-Rod [16 mill per], Cano, and Wang. You're going to be looking at the same roster next season, aside from the pitching staff, unless the Yanks are willing to eat a lot of salary to move people. I don't see it happening.

- How many weeks til pitchers and catchers?

Since you don't remember, I'll remind you when A-Rod threw them under the bus:

"[Mike] Mussina doesn't get hammered at all," he told SI. "He's making a boatload of money. Giambi's making [$20.4 million], which is fine and dandy, but it seems those guys get a pass. When people write [bad things] about me, I don't know if it's [because] I'm good-looking, I'm biracial, I make the most money, I play on the most popular team ..."

And obviously you don't remember the GQ article where A-Rod took a swipe at Jeter while he was still on the Rangers. Hard to defend a guy who took the first shot at you, no? I'm pretty sure neither Sheff nor Giambi did that (despite the fact I don't condone what either of them did).

A-Rod raked for 1.5 series, if you want to be fair. He, along with the rest of the team, collectively stopped hitting in the last 4 games of 2004. And I wouldn't exactly equate hitting .258 to "raking."

I'll finish the argument you left incomplete for you. As a Yankee, A-Rod is batting .240. And that's against a league with an ERA that's higher by approximately 0.75-1 runs per year due to the diminished skill level of the pitchers in today's game, not to mention a lower mound. So comparing Mantle's numbers to A-Rod's isn't exactly a good argument. I'm not saying Mantle would've hit .400 and slugged 1.000 if he played today, but it's likely his numbers would be better.

I'm not debating A-Rod with you anymore, either. There's no way Cashman is dealing him to an AL contender (he's too smart for that), and the sad reality, as you've already pointed out, is that he'll probably be back next year. But that doesn't mean I have to like it. He could probably succeed somewhere else. But it's looking like he can't do it here.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

duxnews said:

haha miserable yankee fans...have fun with the knicks this season, they look great.

Or the Islanders - talk about back-loading contracts ...

[Hank Scorpio]

Unrelated to A-rod's merits as a player...but, Whoa whoa whoa...what instigated A-Rod "throwing them under the bus"? Joe Torre giving Sports Illustrated unprecedented
access to his clubhouse in what is nothing short of attempted
character assassination. If anyone was thrown under a bus in that article, it was Alex Rodriguez. I don't see why he isn't allowed to say anything in his defense when Jason Giambi is allowed to say "Alex doesn't know who he is." I know he's not an admitted steroid user that sat out the 2004 ALCS with a "pituitary tumor" Jason.

Read this article.

www.nysun.com/article/40066

The thing with Jeter happened 5 years ago. Jeter needs to grow up if that is the root of his problem with A-Rod. How old are you? I'm 25. I have to get pretty seriously offended by someone i consider a friend to hold that grudge when I'm 30. Jeter's leadership will be questioned should he remain silent next season and A-Rod is still on the team.

You can't assume jack about Mantle's numbers due to diluted pitching and mound changes etc etc. Other guys managed to perform with those factors in place. Mantle was not a very good postseason player, if you'd like to check out his baseball reference page you'll see plenty of series where he batted in the 100s and low 200s. If you're saying he would have batted 180 - 250 had the numbers been translated today...that still isn't very good.

A followup article by Marchman.


www.nysun.com/article/41113

I encourage you to read Marchman's Yankee coverage in the Sun and Steve Goldman's coverage on the YES Network website [look for the pinstriped blog/bible]. They are not morons like Madden and Bondy and Lupica and rest of the reactionary NY media.

[RockawayHoya]

If it happened 5 years ago, why shouldn't A-Rod have to grow up as well? Kobe never needed Shaq's approval to succeed, he just needed Shaq to deliver on the court. The same applies here. I'm sure plenty of people in all walks of life have co-workers they can't stand. Does that necessarily mean their productivity has to decrease because of strained relationships? It's not an excuse. As for questioning Jeter's leadership: if 23 guys on the roster acknowledge the leadership of a leader and one guy doesn't, do you take a lot from the one dissenter? Probably not. As for grudges, well that's a a whole other issue that has no place in a sports-related thread, and I'm not going to waste half an hour typing out my viewpoint on them. But in short; I defend holding a grudge.

We can debate the Mantle issue further, but its pointless. One other thing to consider: without the tiered playoff system, Mantle was always facing the best the NL had to offer. Adding LCS and divisional series also somewhat dilutes postseason batting statistics, but that's besides the point. Mantle has rings and A-Rod doesn't. I hate to keep bringing up RDF's points from earlier, but he's right: in pro sports, championships, and not numbers, are all that matter.

[hifigator]

duxnews said:

haha miserable yankee fans...have fun with the knicks this season, they look great.

Well here's something we can all agree on. It sure is fun to watch the Yankees infighting among themselves. It couldn't happen to a more deserving group.


On a somewhat related note, I haven't seen very many Tigers' games this year. What about that guy Zumaya? He is unreal. I couldn't believe he wasn't even their closer.

I saw him shut them down in the 8th inning of game 2 and he was a friggin monster. He started off by hitting 100mph. Then 101 and finally finished the inning with 3 or 4 straight at 103mph! The best part was that he had movement. He could hit that speed and still have the ball move a foot clipping the inside (to a RH batter) corner or he could start in at a left handed batter and have it tail back to catch his inside corner. At least for those dozen or so pitches he was unhittable.

[hoyarooter]

Aw, the poor Yankees. What a shame.

I wish to congratulate myself on picking every division series incorrectly. The Tigers and Cards were both God-awful down the stretch (19-31 for Tigers w/ collapse against Royals?), and yet, here they are. Go Cards. But fat chance. Carpenter and pray for rain, rain, rain and rain?

[RDF]

I understand why people don't like the Yankees, but it's fun to be a fan of a team that is committed to attempting to do anything/everything to win--it's really a joy to see that and it's what Professional Sports is all about. When morons always say "they are trying to BUY a title", you have to wonder what the hell these people watch? It's called PRO SPORTS--as in these people get PAID to play--as in PROFESSION, i.e Job. Now the Yankees are going about it the wrong way as of late, but I never question the passion of the organization to win and that is what most other fans are jealous of--the commitment to win and not celebrate ignorant things like "division titles". It's PRO SPORTS--you are a failure unless you win and that is bottomline.

College sports are different. You can build/have a good year and not be a champ--Pro sports aren't. There isn't building towards next year--it's about the now and in Baseball that combines building with minor league talent, signing players that can help via FA, and rewarding your own players for excellence. As I said, I understand why people don't like them, and that is cool with me, but it's great to pull for a team committed to doing what it takes to win instead of sitting around like the Cubs with Tribune company having all of that money and not doing a thing, because the dolts/morons show up to Wrigley every year and don't send a message that winning is important.

Steinbrenner is one of the few people in the world who understand how important competition and commitment are. People like Carl Pohlad are far richer then George Steinbrenner and yet choose to run their team like it's a Nickel and Dime outfit. It's not Steinbrenner's fault and he has to give out money to this jerkoff each year because Pohlad chooses to pocket what is given to him and not spend it on his team.

I applaud what the Mets did this offseason and at the trade deadline-I applaud what the Red Sox try to do, Dodgers, etc... those who are trying to win--are to be commended--Detroit did it--and look how it's paid off and kudos to them.

It's why most Yankee fans dont' get irritated at other teams--you appreciate their play on the field as a fan and you focus on what is needed to get better next year for your team--because everyone understands the ONLY GOAL is winning #27, not "celebrating" division championships.

[Hank Scorpio]

Didn't Shaq and Kobe stop winning titles when
their relationship soured? Isn't that what caused the Diesel to flee LA? bad example.

furthermore, if you don't feel comfortable in your work environment, don't you think your productivity would suffer? and if the leader of your division or project manager could go a long way towards making you more productive by speaking out in your defense, don't you think the so called leader is should do so for the greater good of the team? If Jeter is the leader of that team, and is as unselfish and the personification of team play or whatever Joe Morgan wants to call him, you don't think the onus is on him at all? Especially considering the fact that he defended players who disgraced the game/team with their Balco half truths? You're letting Jeter off way too easy here.

Also, you assume that the guys in the clubhouse don't say Jeter is a great leader for fear of a frosty relationship with the captain making them feel ostracized in the locker room.

I didn't say he didn't have a right to hold a grudge. I said he didn't have the right to hold such a petty/infantile grudge.

And my point with the Mantle issue, which seems to have been lost on you, is that even though he was a poor postseason performer, he still sports rings b/c his teammates picked him up. Mick was integral in getting them there, but once they were there, other guys carried the load. And your argument works both ways...it is harder to sustain greatness over 3 rounds of the playoffs than it is 1. In a 5 game series, chances are you'll see nothing but aces, whereas in a 7 game set, you'll see #3 and 4 starters. Etc, etc. Stats are the only thing you can use to compare different eras.

www.baseball-reference.com/m/mantlmi01.shtml

Rings defining greatness is entirely too simplistic a view, and denies the accomplishments of Ted Williams, Tony Gwynn, Jimmie Foxx, and countless other Hall of Famers who never played on a champion. (that Derek Jeter played on teams that frequently outspent the rest of the league cannot be ignored). I can say without hesitation that, despite never having won a World Series, Ted Williams will be remembered as a better ballplayer than any position player of the Yankees from 96 to 2000.

[Deleted]

RDF -

Just want to take issue with one thing you said: "People like Carl Pohlad are far richer than George Steinbrenner and yet choose to run their team like it's a Nickel and Dime outfit."

Yes, Polhad and many others are far richer individuals than Steinbrenner. But these men are businessmen first and foremost. They aren't combining revenue streams from other business entities or pumping their own personal loot into their team's coffers. None of them do... it would be bad business. Even to the owners who are HUGE fans of their teams, they are still an investment first and foremost. In this industry, personal cash is used to purchase the team... not to run it.

Teams run based on THEIR bottom line, not their owners. That's why the Yankees have such a massive advantage over teams like the Twins. Sure their owner is richer, but it isn't the owner's duty to pump his personal funds into his team. Not in this industry. If this were a mom-and-pop hardware store on the corner, that's one thing. But these are multi-million (occasionally billion) dollar investments for wealthy individuals who "pay the price" when they purchase the team.

To say certain immensely rich owners are "nickel and diming it" because they don't contribute more of their PERSONAL wealth is a bit disingenuous. Steinbrenner could be personally worth $10 billion and he wouldn't put any of his own cash into the team, he did when he bought them from CBS. He spends as much as he does because the Yankees make as much as they do. Individual wealth is irrelevant.

In fact, one could even argue (and I'm just playing devil's advocate here) Steinbrenner - who owns the most valuable sports franchise on the planet and has perhaps the highest revenues of any owner on the planet - is "nickel and diming it" by forcing New York State taxpayers to foot about $400 million in construction costs of the new stadium.

That said, he does expend more resources to win than any other owner in sports (except for maybe Cuban or Kraft, but those guys can't compete with Steinbrenner 'cause of their respective salary caps), and its a crime owners in ANY sport who receive revenue sharing money aren't REQUIRED to invest 100% of those funds back into the franchise.

[SFHoya99]

rdf said:

I understand why people don't like the Yankees, but it's fun to be a fan of a team that is committed to attempting to do anything/everything to win--it's really a joy to see that and it's what Professional Sports is all about. When morons always say "they are trying to BUY a title", you have to wonder what the hell these people watch? It's called PRO SPORTS--as in these people get PAID to play--as in PROFESSION, i.e Job. Now the Yankees are going about it the wrong way as of late, but I never question the passion of the organization to win and that is what most other fans are jealous of--the commitment to win and not celebrate ignorant things like "division titles". It's PRO SPORTS--you are a failure unless you win and that is bottomline.

College sports are different. You can build/have a good year and not be a champ--Pro sports aren't. There isn't building towards next year--it's about the now and in Baseball that combines building with minor league talent, signing players that can help via FA, and rewarding your own players for excellence. As I said, I understand why people don't like them, and that is cool with me, but it's great to pull for a team committed to doing what it takes to win instead of sitting around like the Cubs with Tribune company having all of that money and not doing a thing, because the dolts/morons show up to Wrigley every year and don't send a message that winning is important.

Steinbrenner is one of the few people in the world who understand how important competition and commitment are. People like Carl Pohlad are far richer then George Steinbrenner and yet choose to run their team like it's a Nickel and Dime outfit. It's not Steinbrenner's fault and he has to give out money to this jerkoff each year because Pohlad chooses to pocket what is given to him and not spend it on his team.

I applaud what the Mets did this offseason and at the trade deadline-I applaud what the Red Sox try to do, Dodgers, etc... those who are trying to win--are to be commended--Detroit did it--and look how it's paid off and kudos to them.

It's why most Yankee fans dont' get irritated at other teams--you appreciate their play on the field as a fan and you focus on what is needed to get better next year for your team--because everyone understands the ONLY GOAL is winning #27, not "celebrating" division championships.

When Steinbrenner actually loses money - not just reports it - I'll maintain he's different than other owners.

[RDF]

buffalohoya said:

RDF -

Just want to take issue with one thing you said: "People like Carl Pohlad are far richer than George Steinbrenner and yet choose to run their team like it's a Nickel and Dime outfit."

Yes, Polhad and many others are far richer individuals than Steinbrenner. But these men are businessmen first and foremost. They aren't combining revenue streams from other business entities or pumping their own personal loot into their team's coffers. None of them do... it would be bad business. Even to the owners who are HUGE fans of their teams, they are still an investment first and foremost. In this industry, personal cash is used to purchase the team... not to run it.

Teams run based on THEIR bottom line, not their owners. That's why the Yankees have such a massive advantage over teams like the Twins. Sure their owner is richer, but it isn't the owner's duty to pump his personal funds into his team. Not in this industry. If this were a mom-and-pop hardware store on the corner, that's one thing. But these are multi-million (occasionally billion) dollar investments for wealthy individuals who "pay the price" when they purchase the team.

To say certain immensely rich owners are "nickel and diming it" because they don't contribute more of their PERSONAL wealth is a bit disingenuous. Steinbrenner could be personally worth $10 billion and he wouldn't put any of his own cash into the team, he did when he bought them from CBS. He spends as much as he does because the Yankees make as much as they do. Individual wealth is irrelevant.

In fact, one could even argue (and I'm just playing devil's advocate here) Steinbrenner - who owns the most valuable sports franchise on the planet and has perhaps the highest revenues of any owner on the planet - is "nickel and diming it" by forcing New York State taxpayers to foot about $400 million in construction costs of the new stadium.

That said, he does expend more resources to win than any other owner in sports (except for maybe Cuban or Kraft, but those guys can't compete with Steinbrenner 'cause of their respective salary caps), and its a crime owners in ANY sport who receive revenue sharing money aren't REQUIRED to invest 100% of those funds back into the franchise.

Buff, Carl Pohlad's nickname is "Mr. Cheap" for a reason and how he made his money is a source of rage/anger up here in Minnesota--he RAPED people to get where he did and let's just say he's been called to carpet on many occasions.

I understand the money the Yankees make, but the fact is that they try to win under Steinbrenner and are committed to doing this every year. Whatever it takes and as I said, their decision making can be questioned--the commitment can't be. Steinbrenner buying team from CBS and turning it into what it is now-is great business. CBS had the money and power if they wanted and look what they did to the franchise? Look what Tribune Company does with Cubs? It's about the goal/commitment he sets as a precedent and while I understand your financial comments, he could say he's about winning, spend money, and not hold anyone to a standard--which isn't the case with Yankee Organization. To compare the Rangers/Knicks with Yankees is wrong--and as I said, the other teams who have made commitments to their fans should be commended--the bottom line is that if any owner can't hack it, there will be NUMEROUS people ready to pounce in and take their shot.

The problem with Professional Sports in this country is attitude. Everyone wants their "Shot" and feels they are "owed" a shot to win--by weakening others. The true goal is to make others raise their level/game and beat you and I tire of the attitude that we see today--like "Dan Marino is a great player, would like to see him win one"--screw Marino--if he can't win with team he's on, that's life. You don't get anywhere by hoping strong teams get weak--you build and rise up to challenge and take it on. Too many people in today's society want everyone to get their piece--I admire the strong and have no problem seeing inferior/weak get crushed--it's part of life. Change in attitude in sport reflects on the societal change and it's attitudes like Steinbrenner's that should be applauded--not singled out as "Bad for game". The Draft was inserted to weaken the Yankees and other powerful clubs, there are ways to build a winner--as you've seen Detroit, Oakland, Florida do. It's still a game and has to be won on the field and I tire of the weak complaining--either get better or get crushed.

That is why I want Torre fired. I appreciate his tenure and to be quite honest, I've never felt that he was a smart manager. But he is a nice guy and did what was asked--to a certain extent. He's been given ample times to correct things and get team to next level--he's failed as leader of team and has to go. Those who say "He's won 4 titles.......9 straight divisions..." are not seeing what is important--the ONLY THING that matters is winning a Championship in that industry. If that isn't your goal, then you are ripping off customers and shouldn't have a team. Pro Sports are BUSINESS and nobody sets out to have a company to not achieve and produce--if they do, they won't be around long and will fail. That is my point in that attitude that Yankee fans can appreciate. Remember Steinbrenner was BLASTED for replacing Showalter with Torre in first place and who was right there? Now it's time to give Torre his walking papers and move onto someone who has the drive/hunger to push this team forward. 2nd Place is for losers and Torre was getting too settled into "we did a good job overcoming..."--no you didn't. You failed and have to go.

[RockawayHoya]

Borat, we disagree on all the other points besides the one I'm going to talk about, so it's moot trying to argue it further.

But one of your points is clearly incorrect: I'm pretty sure Kobe and Shaq's relationship disintegrated during their title runs. They weren't exactly best of friends even when they did win 3 in a row. So to say that's a bad example when comparing it to the '04-'06 Yanks is false. Kobe and Shaq, despite their differences, won titles (even when they weren't getting along). Jeter and A-Rod could not. Obviously, star players count for a little bit more in the NBA than they do in MLB (which is one of the reasons I dislike the NBA), but there is in fact a precedent for teams with superstars who didn't get along to still succeed and win titles. Sure, everyone struggles in the postseason from time to time (as you've pointed out with Mantle, etc.). But I invite you to find any Hall of Famer or future HOF'er (as A-Rod invariably is) that has had a 12 game postseason stretch like A-Rod is currently on. Find me one player of comparable stature that went 12 consecutive postseason games hitting .098 with no RBIs. You might be able to convince a small percentage of Yankee fans out there that Jeter is to blame for A-Rod's failures. But to blame him for arguably one of, if not the worst postseason slump in MLB history? That is beyond struggling. And it is also beyond Jeter's responsibility.