Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Aug 21, 2006 22:26:24 GMT -5
Pros and Cons:
Pros: 1) Paps 2) Manny (he was a stud) 3) Alex Cora's throw to first this afternoon and his solid play in general 4) Foulke surprising me 5) David Wells return...who knew, he needed a week to get settled 6) Mike Lowell's defense...imagine the score if he wasn't third base 7) Schilling
Cons: 1) Terry Francona 2) Coco Crisp 3) Javy Lopez 4) Josh Beckett 5) Bullpen (I'm looking at you Hansen) 6) Gabe Kaplans ridiculously unnecessary dive yesterday...it has to be mentioned 7) Big Papi Ortiz...pretty much a nonfactor
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Aug 21, 2006 22:58:47 GMT -5
'Bridge - I don't think you can blame Hansen - it has been obvious for a couple of weeks that he is not ready for this level yet and was thrown in out of necessity in the hopes that lightening in a bottle would strike.
It is also pretty obvious that the team has a gameplan that does not include throwing away all their prospects to win this year at the expense of the next.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Aug 21, 2006 23:38:29 GMT -5
' It is also pretty obvious that the team has a gameplan that does not include throwing away all their prospects to win this year at the expense of the next. Are you sure about that game plan? It's pretty clear they aren't doing much to win this year. Next year? I am not so sure. Perhaps it is really the traditional Red Sox claim... "we guarantee we'll win the WS once every 86 years!"
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Aug 21, 2006 23:41:30 GMT -5
I know, I know, the prospects are great. Now, as much as I want to believe that's what's going on...the Sox do not have a long tradition of developing talent, so pardon me if I'm skeptical.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Aug 22, 2006 8:19:31 GMT -5
It's not just about waiting for the kids, its also about using your resources wisely. This FO is not afraid to deal prospects or pay big money, but it also does not want to be burned by bad deals that limit flexibility. That is not to say it hasn't happened (Clement) or won't happen again (Beckett?), but throwing close to $30 million (once luxury tax and buyouts are included) at Bobby Abreu for 2 months and one more season would be crippling in any attempt to improve the pitching, which remains the real concern, yesterday's performance notwithstanding. However, they were prepared to deal young players (Hansen, Crisp, maybe Lester) if it brought back Roy Oswalt. Odds are not all of these pitchers turn into top of the rotation guys, but I am more comfortable giving them a chance to develop than I am giving them away for the next Jeff Suppan.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 22, 2006 12:34:51 GMT -5
Red Sox fans may have a legitimate gripe about Theo doing nothing at the trade deadline, but I'm not sure you should be critical of the Javy Lopez acquisition. Certainly Theo couldn't have anticipated Veritek going down, and I don't know that there were any better options out there. Should he have signed Pat Borders?
And stupid me. I guess I can think of one much worse collapse than the Red Sox these past few days, even though all four games weren't at home. 2004 ALCS anyone? Now THOSE were good days.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 22, 2006 12:38:33 GMT -5
6) Gabe Kaplans ridiculously unnecessary dive yesterday...it has to be mentioned
I know this is a simple typo, but I still can't resist - if Gabe Kaplan is taking time off from filming Welcome Back to the Rest Home, Kotter to play for the Red Sox, they're really in trouble.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Aug 22, 2006 17:46:55 GMT -5
6) Gabe Kaplans ridiculously unnecessary dive yesterday...it has to be mentioned I know this is a simple typo, but I still can't resist - if Gabe Kaplan is taking time off from filming Welcome Back to the Rest Home, Kotter to play for the Red Sox, they're really in trouble. Good catch...hahaha.
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Post by BeantownHoya on Sept 22, 2006 11:14:35 GMT -5
Not that RDF needs my help in making his point but here one of the most alarming stats I have ever seen about Arod:
Two of the criticisms of Alex Rodriguez in Tom Verducci's current article in Sports Illustrated are Rodriguez's poor clutch hitting and his struggle to hit fastballs. At the intersection of those two charges is this amazing statistic: During his three seasons with the Yankees, A-Rod has batted .105 with runners in scoring position against pitchers who averaged at least one strikeout per inning (in the season in question). That's four hits in 38 at-bats, with one home run and 16 strikeouts.
I am sure soem will argue that 38 bats is a minute "sample" over 3 seasons, but this stat clearly makes the case that Arod may at time get it done in the clutch but he never gets it done against the premier pitchers in the league.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Sept 22, 2006 12:25:10 GMT -5
Not that RDF needs my help in making his point but here one of the most alarming stats I have ever seen about Arod: Two of the criticisms of Alex Rodriguez in Tom Verducci's current article in Sports Illustrated are Rodriguez's poor clutch hitting and his struggle to hit fastballs. At the intersection of those two charges is this amazing statistic: During his three seasons with the Yankees, A-Rod has batted .105 with runners in scoring position against pitchers who averaged at least one strikeout per inning (in the season in question). That's four hits in 38 at-bats, with one home run and 16 strikeouts. I am sure soem will argue that 38 bats is a minute "sample" over 3 seasons, but this stat clearly makes the case that Arod may at time get it done in the clutch but he never gets it done against the premier pitchers in the league. Out of curiousity, how have the "clutch" hitters done? That stat needs some context--if Ortiz is hitting .130 in the same situations, well, then ARod hasn't done that bad then. (And you're right--the small sample size means that it's a pretty meaningless stat)
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Sept 22, 2006 15:03:34 GMT -5
Well, based on those 38 at bats, I think we should ship him out, eat his salary, and get ourselves a guy that flat out dominates good pitching, especially in late innings. Someone like Scott Brosius. And who cares if he lights up groundball pitchers in the modl of Brandon Webb, those guys average less than 9 Ks per 9 innings! EDIT - read this and call Tom Verucci
www.nysun.com/article/40191A-Rod can't hit finesse pitchers. He swings through offspeed stuff all the time. He does, however, devour fastballs/power pitchers. And he had one truly awful month this season. One. If he doesn't have his June swoon, he is probably in the running for MVP, splitting votes from Jeter and giving it to Frank Thomas. The overanalysis of this guy is absurd, and cherry picking ridiculous stats like that is just crappy journalism. What is his normal average against those pitchers? Does he hit solo home runs off of them [without RISP]? That sounded like a stat created just to make him look bad. It's getting to the point where it's comical. Especially Jason Giambi, an admitted steroid user who has never won a thing in his life except a trip in front of the grand jury, giving A-Rod advice. Does anyone remember that guy sitting out Game 5 of the 2003 World Series? Remember when Tony Clark manned first base for us in the 2004 ALCS b/c a steroid bug was eating him alive? Talking about toughness. What a hypocrite. On a side note, are David Ortiz's home runs since Boston was eliminated discounted in any way b/c they don't count for anything now? Useless stat padding? Or are you going to celebrate the fact that he broke the franchise record b/c he plays for your squad? Because I guarantee you, if A-Rod hit 62 and the Yanks were eliminated, I'd be hearing about what a worthless hitter he was when it mattered, despite having the same average with RISP has he normally does. Another note, has Ortiz's production waned with Manny out? I don't know, but if it didn't, pretty impressive to put up the numbers without the protection Not that RDF needs my help in making his point but here one of the most alarming stats I have ever seen about Arod: Two of the criticisms of Alex Rodriguez in Tom Verducci's current article in Sports Illustrated are Rodriguez's poor clutch hitting and his struggle to hit fastballs. At the intersection of those two charges is this amazing statistic: During his three seasons with the Yankees, A-Rod has batted .105 with runners in scoring position against pitchers who averaged at least one strikeout per inning (in the season in question). That's four hits in 38 at-bats, with one home run and 16 strikeouts. I am sure soem will argue that 38 bats is a minute "sample" over 3 seasons, but this stat clearly makes the case that Arod may at time get it done in the clutch but he never gets it done against the premier pitchers in the league.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Sept 22, 2006 21:08:23 GMT -5
Another note, has Ortiz's production waned with Manny out? I don't know, but if it didn't, pretty impressive to put up the numbers without the protection I think he had a blip mainly due to his own health scare and more due to the fact that the lineup in front of him was not filling the bases as much as they had been previously than lack of Manny protection. Just my gestalt without actually looking for real stats.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2006 11:55:17 GMT -5
Amazing how completely irrelevant this thread (and the Sox) have become.
FOLKS!!!
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Post by BeantownHoya on Sept 25, 2006 13:18:57 GMT -5
What do you want us to talk about? How the Bills got their a$$ handed to them by an abysmal Jets squad? : )
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2006 13:39:16 GMT -5
What do you want us to talk about? How the Bills got their a$$ handed to them by an abysmal Jets squad? : ) We can, after we talk about how the Patriots got their a$$ handed to them by, correct me if I'm wrong, Jake Plummer? Again???
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2006 8:38:01 GMT -5
I'm with Buff on this one. Looking at the standings, this probably should have been the "Yankees vs. Blue Jays" thread...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2006 9:21:54 GMT -5
In an effort to prevent thread derailing, I have a serious couple questions for Sox fans (now that I no longer live in Boston):
1 - What's the current take on Theo? I've always heard rumblings - even after the WS win - that he was a bit overrated; that his "successes" were only due to his failures (not getting A-Rod, not losing Manny, taking Schilling when he failed to get a few others, etc.). That argument always seemed to have SOME legs, but I could never fully buy into it.
2 - Who stays/goes next year?
3 - Where's Paplebon next year? Starting? Still in the 'pen?
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Post by BeantownHoya on Sept 26, 2006 11:58:48 GMT -5
Here's my 2 cents Buffalo: (in reverse order)
3) Rumor is that Papelbon will find himself in the rotation next year. He literally came out and said that he felt he would be asked to join the rotation at spring training. Whether that is the right move or not can be debated. Is he more valuable closing for this team throwing 80-90 innings or as a #3 starter throwing 175+ innings?
What is making this decision difficult for mgmt. is they thought they had another closer in Craig Hansen and moving papelbon wouldn't be an issue. That may be far from the case after watching Hansen this year. The other ULTRA-scary rumor is they would would consider trying Clement in the closer role. Thinking less innings = less injury concern. However if this guy has turned into a "headcase" I am not sure if i want him closing big games in Aug/Sept.
2) Who goes, who stays is a tough one. It is assumed that Pedroia will be with the club in a starting role next year, which would mean goodbye Loretta. The majority feel that either Gonzalez or Loretta will be gone next year and Pedroia is certainly more suited for 2B. I would prefer to keep the middle infield as is and have pedroia serve as next years "Alex Cora".
I don't think there is any chance T.Nixon is back. They will either fill that role with Willy Mo Pena or possible Murphy, maybe Ellsbury. Nixon as you know is a huge fan favorite and has produced well for a #6 or 7 hitter but he will command too much money and years for a guy that can never stay on the field.
I also assume there will be an effort to pull a Renteria with Coco Crisp and ship him out as quick as he came. I could be wrong but there have always been rumblings that mgmt feels they mis-evaluated what Crisp brought to this team. He has not filled in well as a leadoff hitter, forcing Youk to bat 1, and is it possible for someone to have a worst arm than Damon?? They may have better options already in Murphy and Ellsbury. Crisp is 1 guy not over paid at least so he is tradeable(is that a word?).
I am not up on my FA's right now. But you can only assume that Zito will be mentioned time and again as a target. You can also be sure that they will again try to find a new home for Ramirez.
1) I could write for days about this. Theo and Co. up to the end of this year have gotten a pass since the WS win. There is no doubt that everything this guy touched from Nov. 03' to the WS win was just pure gold, he could do no wrong (other than the Freddy Sancez trade, which hasn't looked bad until now). However I have serious doubts and concerns since the WS win. There have been countless errors made by this orginization since and I have always held the opinion that Theo would never be successful if he had a payroll of 80 million. Lets count together:
a) The horrific Clement signing b) The horrific Renteria signing - in which the only way to escape was pay 10 mil of the salary for Atl. to take him. In the end many thought they did alright because they got highly touted prospect Andy Marte, who was then prompty traded for... c) Coco Crisp d) Signing Beckett to an extension and then watch him throw up on himself for most of the 2nd half e) this one i blame on everyone invloved, Larry, Theo, scouts, - trading Anibal Sanchez and Hanley Ramirez. It is amazing how they missed the boat on these 2. Instead determining that Letser, Hansen, and Delcarmen were the better prospects. This move bothers me to no end. They groomed Hanley Ramirez, the perfect time had arrived, they had no SS, no lead-off man (w/Damon gone) but instead of sticking with their gut feeling he is dealt. f) another great sign of them either questioning there original analysis or having no-balls is the mirabelli trade. This was gross. They steal Loretta for a back-up, washed-up catcher. They determine Mirabelli is done. So what happens? They let ONE month pass now decide all their analysis had been worng turn around and give up Bard (the better catcher in the deal) and Cla Meredith (who would look damn good in that bullpen right now). The biggest kicker is they do all of this to satisfy their #4 starter. Terrible! I am sorry but Varitek, if you need a day off learn to catch the knuckler and Bard could become the personal catcher for another starter. I have never been more embarrased as a Sox fan then when we police escorted the back-up catcher batting .160 to the ballpark. g) Allowing 90 yr old Timlin pitch in the WBC h) Trading Arroyo for Willy Mo. Granted Arroyo's stats are bloated being in the NL. But you trade a starting pitcher for an OF, that can't play the OF, and will never play DH with Ortiz in town. h) doing nothing at the trade deadline. Oh wait we did get Javy Lopez and Hinske. Maybe Im wrong. I) Theo and Mgmt. acting like 5 years old about who should call the shots during the summer.
-If only I didn't have to go to a meeting right now....
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Sept 26, 2006 13:06:38 GMT -5
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Post by BeantownHoya on Sept 26, 2006 13:13:51 GMT -5
Very fair point Tbird. It's known that the Beckett deal was completed by Larry L. while Theo was "touring" w/Pearl Jam. I guess that goes to my reason "I". I should be more clear. I think the entire front office has dropped the ball not just Theo. I also agree that it is fair to say that no moved was made with our current young players at the trade deadline because Theo is not willing to give up on their youth. However after watching Hanley and Anibal this year someone inside definitely missed their talent.
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